Israeli/Palestinian conflict

[DaveBrown74]

I am not really looking to start any sort of heated debate here or make this a political thread. So please don't turn this into that. It is more just that I felt compelled to express my dismay about this event on a purely human level. There is major tragedy and human suffering on both sides here. I don't know what the solution is or if there ever will be one, but this latest flare-up has been particularly ugly, with many civilian deaths. It is truly tragic, and I wish it would stop.

[DaveBrown74]

Apologies - I meant to put this in the front porch. It won't let me move it or remove it.

[Philosophers]

I've spent a lot of time over there the past three years.  There is so much to love about it.  Tel Aviv may have the best food scene in the world.  All the people I've met from all sides have been wonderful.  There is an energy there that makes you feel alive.  It is horrible what is going on, however, there are so many dynamics at play there that it is a very complicated problem with no easy solution in sight.  Also, it is much more than a Jewish vs. Palestinean problem.

I hope peace comes to all there soon.

[MightyGiants]

I was curious how this particular crisis got started.  I had to look it up.   In case you're like me, here is a good primer


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399

[DaveBrown74]

I was curious how this particular crisis got started.  I had to look it up.   In case you're like me, here is a good primer


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399

Yep. Seems to have been both the mosque confrontation as well as the evictions of the families. Given the intensity level that is already in place though, the bar for an outbreak of violence is sadly not very high.

[Philosophers]

I was curious how this particular crisis got started.  I had to look it up.   In case you're like me, here is a good primer


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399

It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall.  Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it. 

[MightyGiants]

It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall.  Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.

I have to wonder how much this time we are seeing the tail wag the dog.  Netanyahu has had all sorts of corruption scandals and he can't put together a coalition government.  Nothing like war to unite a nation and make them forget about things.

[Painter]

While there has always been, and still is a strong element of antisemitism in our, anything but generous and fair-minded, Country, it is the Christian Right which somehow sees Israel, Jerusalem in particular, as central in their origins as bogus as that is. What truly is common in that regard is the hypocrisy and corruption shared by Netanyahu and Trump and their sycophants and stooges, both here and their. Unfortunately, as we have enough racists, xenophobes, and religious bigots, not to mention delusionals, influencing our politics, the current Administration is squeezed between left and right, the Dome of the Rock and the Hadith,  Al-Aqsa Mosque.

[LennG]

Israel has tried to make peace with anyone who wishes that to happen. Israelis would jump for joy if all the mid-east countries would opt for peace instead of their mantra of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. As long as that is their belief, then Israel has every right to defend itself.
We see pix of all these weeping Palestinian civilians yet we don't see how they are the front people for all the militants who use these civilians as shields. You don't see Israel putting up children to shied any terrorist movements.
Hamas IS a terrorist group and anyone who doesn't see that isn't looking very hard. Terrorists are just that terrorists and they can try and make it any way they want but bottom line they are still terrorists hiding behind civilians.

[umassgrad]

Lenn, I have a few questions based on your last post and I admit I've not watched this closely in the news.
I wasn't aware of civilian shields with this latest flare up. Can you share a link to that news article?
I don't recall other Middle East countries commenting recently about wiping Israel off the face of the earth in regards to the recent events. Please share that link as well.
Hamas is a terrorist group but not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. Are you aware of the many Palestinian Christians living in Palestine?
What is your feeling on Jewish settlements in Palestine? Have those settlements expanded in recent years?

[Jolly Blue Giant]

It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall.  Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.

Okay...I wasn't going to get into this, but I cannot keep quiet. I will not get political, I promise.

To start with, my sister and her family live in Israel and have for many years. Therefore, I visit the country often. I haven't been over there in a couple years, but I am in constant contact with my sister. She has two kids who are currently serving in the IDF and are waist deep in the muck going on. Just as a note, I am not Jewish. My paternal and maternal surnames are both easily recognized as German and I am a mutt made up primarily of English, Dutch, German, French, Irish, and even a little Native American. My sister converted to Judaism and she is the only one in my family. Her husband is 100% Jewish, born in Jerusalem and a remnant of the survivors from the Holocaust (his grandfather the only survivor of his 9 siblings).

In order to understand how the current mess started, you have to understand the layout of the Temple Mount within the "Old City" of Jerusalem as well as some modern history and the current practices of the people.

The history: After the Six-Day War, Israel handed administration of the site back to the Waqf under Jordanian custodianship, while maintaining Israeli security control. The Waqf simply means that those who practice Islam have rights to practice their religion without general concern. This agreement has been upheld for many years.

The current practices: Islamic towers throughout Israel have powerful speakers that broadcast "calls to prayer" five times a day (dawn, noon, midafternoon, sunset, and nightfall). These calls to prayer amount to a male singing prayers in Arabic that usually last about ten minutes, but can last as long as a half hour. They are both beautiful and a bit eerie to those not used to it. They are very loud and if you are in Old Jerusalem and try to have a conversation during the prayers, it's like trying to have a conversation at a nightclub or a concert. As an example of how loud the prayers are, my parents had tickets to Israel from JFK on 9/11/2001. They did not make the flight! But as soon as air travel was lifted they were on the first flight over there. My mother was sitting in the back yard with my sister drinking coffee the following morning in Zichron Yaakov discussing the 9/11 tragedy when the calls to prayer were being sung (from about 10 miles away) and she wondered how something so pretty can also be attached to the horror going on in America. Anyway, the Islamic calls to prayer are part of everyday life in Israel. Not so much in Tel Aviv, but all around the rest of the country in every major city.

The layout of the Temple Mount ("where Gods collide"): There are three main areas that are all connected:

1: The Dome of the Rock (which is the most holy spot on the planet for Jews) is not a mosque or a temple, it is a "shrine" built in 1692 by Islamic powers after seizing Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire. It was purposely constructed over the ruins of Solomon's Temple. It's called the Dome of the Rock because it is literally built over the rock where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac several thousand years ago. It is also where the original Jewish temple (Solomon's Temple) was built and where the Ark of the Covenant resided.

2. Across from the Dome of the Rock is the Al Aqsa Mosque roughly a 100 yards away. Tourists are not allowed to enter the mosque and it's a hot bed of ill feelings. When I went up to the Dome of the Rock a couple of years ago, soldiers asked me not to because of the current temperature of emotions. I went anyway, but I didn't bother to get too close to the mosque where soldiers with machine guns patrolled.

3. The Western (Wailing) Wall is directly below the area where the Dome of the Rock is located. If you climbed the roughly 40' wall, you'd be standing on the grounds that house the Dome of the Rock. It is common for hostile people to antagonize those praying at the wall from above. The last time I was there a Bar Mitzvah was taking place at the wall. I went up to the Dome of the Rock and there were a group of people yelling "Allahu Akbar" in unison trying to disrupt the celebration below and I saw one person throw some food over the wall to irritate those below. I expected soldiers to get involved, but they didn't. The whole thing made me cringe.




I took this picture of the Dome of the Rock standing in front of the Al Aqsa Mosque


I took this picture of the Al Aqsa mosque standing on the steps leading up to the Dome of the Rock


This is a picture of the Bar Mitzvah taking place at the Western Wall. The troublemakers were directly above them at the top of the wall.


This is my sister and I grabbing a bite to eat

Okay, now that the slide show and history lesson is over, here is my opinion:

First off - people must understand the tension that exists in the air in Old Jerusalem. Tension so thick at times you wonder if all hell is about to break loose. Sometimes it does.

Secondly, I do not know what the purpose of Netanyahu's speech at the Western Wall was all about, but I am not surprised that it was requested that the call to prayers be held off to not disrupt a speech given by the prime minister of Israel. It would be the equivalent of Biden given an important speech at Arlington Cemetery and requesting no church bells or horns be blasted while the President was speaking.

I am sure a sincere request was made by the government to hold off on the calls to prayer during the prime minister's speech. And of course, the calls to prayer are not set in stone, i.e., an exact time of the day and is subject to the whims of those in control of the prayers. I suspect (but do not know) that it is likely that Netanyahu was denied a respectful silence during his speech and in fact, there was a plan to blast a long prayer during his speech, most likely one of those half hour prayers. I imagine the soldiers who attempted to keep the prayers off the loud speakers were rebuffed and were met with scorn and very ill feelings. It probably escalated and the electricity to the mosque was ebentually cut off. This led to hostility and once again, off to the races and let a war begin.

As far as the event spilling over into Gaza goes, it was probably incited by Iran using their puppets (Hamas) to turn the "minor" scuffle into a reason to start a new war with Israel. It also probably had a something to do with the turnover of a new President in the U.S. that has yet to be tested, to get a feel for which side of the aisle he is going to stand.

In short, this has been going on for years and is nothing new. The conflict between Jews and Arabs goes back thousands of years. It is the stated goal of Iran that they seek the total destruction of Israel and of foreign influence on Arab countries. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are merely arms of Iranian terrorism. The "Palestinians" are merely pawns of the terrorists whom they govern over. All that is needed to start a fire is a spark and Iran is always looking for a spark and will fan the flames until it's a hugely destructive fire. This time, it was about a request that the calls to prayer hold off during the speech of the Prime Minister. That was the spark and Hamas responded with hundreds of missiles lobbed into Israel. And Israel (whose residents say, "never again" ever since the holocaust) will fight to the death to survive instead of rolling over like they did in the 1940's. It's a sad situation.

For those who have never heard a call to prayer, here's a short example. Turn you speakers all the way up if you want the full gist of what it sounds like if walking in the streets of Jerusalem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYzAcS3G0MM

[MightyGiants]

I am sure a sincere request was made by the government to hold off on the calls to prayer during the prime minister's speech. And of course, the calls to prayer are not set in stone, i.e., an exact time of the day and is subject to the whims of those in control of the prayers.

JBG,

I had to correct this

The five daily prayers include: Fajr (sunrise prayer), Dhuhr (noon prayer), Asr (afternoon prayer), Maghrib (sunset prayer), and Isha (night prayer). Each prayer has a specific window of time in which it must be completed. These timings are based upon the sun.

https://www.ben.edu/faculty-staff/ctle/fac_resources/muslim-prayer-times.cfm#:~:text=The%20five%20daily%20prayers%20include,are%20based%20upon%20the%20sun.

[LennG]

Lenn, I have a few questions based on your last post and I admit I've not watched this closely in the news.
I wasn't aware of civilian shields with this latest flare up. Can you share a link to that news article?
I don't recall other Middle East countries commenting recently about wiping Israel off the face of the earth in regards to the recent events. Please share that link as well.
Hamas is a terrorist group but not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. Are you aware of the many Palestinian Christians living in Palestine?
What is your feeling on Jewish settlements in Palestine? Have those settlements expanded in recent years?

First. I don't have a direct link as to why many of the mid-east countries want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but it is a well know fact and many have expressed that thought ever since Israel has gained their independence. As of now, Iran openly expresses that belief and it is generally understood that Hamas is working under Iranian support. If you want, just google wipe Israel off the face of the earth and many articles will come up to say that and why.

Also, as far as Hamas using civilians and journalists as shields to conduct operations, again, google it and several, like this one, will come up
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/middle-east/hamas-committing-war-crimes-by-hiding-behind-civilians-israel-security-experts.html

Israel has made countless concessions to try and achieve peace in the middle east. Some have proven fruit worthy, like with Egypt and now Jordan. They have conceded land to try and appease certain people and have tried to live in peace with the Palestinians. Yes, it is a huge problem as all claim to have priority over certain aspects of the area. Obviously, I am pro Israel and with that said, I do view Israel as only fighting for what they really want--peace. I won't agree with all their policies, like kicking people off the land just to expand but again, Israel did cede land back to other countries that they had won just to keep peace and Israel has bent over backward many times to try and achieve that lasting peace, only to have to keep fighting as certain factions will never accept Israel as a country in that region.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

JBG,

I had to correct this

T
https://www.ben.edu/faculty-staff/ctle/fac_resources/muslim-prayer-times.cfm#:~:text=The%20five%20daily%20prayers%20include,are%20based%20upon%20the%20sun.

You are correct. However, I doubt there are sophisticated measuring instruments to track the sun to the second, or even the minute. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's much more freelance than that. This is a situation where religious zealots can force the leader of their own government to conform to their rules while telling the government to go pound salt. Having walked through the streets of Old Jerusalem (which is made up mostly of Arabs and tourists) or Nazareth or whichever city I happen to be in, this is a fact: nary a soul (Arabs or anyone else) pay attention to the calls to prayer in the streets. They go on with business as usual as though nothing is going on. The prayers being sung inside the mosques are only paid attention to by those worshipers who are already inside the mosques. Hence the reason the group inside the mosques can be heard singing along with the muezzin through the speakers blasted throughout the community. Those who actually care are already inside the mosques, not outside in the streets eating lunch or buying goods.

Secondly, yes...the call to prayer is the second Pillar of Islam. It was initially done to call worshipers to the mosques. It was not an entire prayer, but a call to go to the mosque for prayer. Also, there were no loud speakers when this rule was written in the 6th century. The call was done by a muezzin while standing in public to get the attention of worshipers who didn't have a watch to know what time it was. Now that electricity is widely available as well as amplifiers with thousands of watts of power, the call can be broadcast for many miles...hardly the original intention of the pillar of Islam when a single male cupped his hands and called men to come pray at the mosque. Many countries allow Islamic calls to prayer, but do not allow loud speakers to be used. Also, people who complain that it is too loud have ended up in prison. In 2018, a woman in Indonesia complained of the volume of her local mosque's speakers and was given an 18-month prison sentence for blasphemy, and mobs then burned 14 Buddhist temples to the ground in retaliation following the news of her complaint against the loudspeakers.

A mosque in Hamtramk, Michigan began broadcasting calls to prayer that upset the community that is largely Catholic and Polish. Their main complaint was that the community had already implemented laws limiting the noise of church bells and church chimes in the area. It didn't seem right that the mostly Catholic community was restricted, yet the mosque was allowed to send out their call to prayer that could be heard over 10 miles away. The community eventually set a sound limit on the mosque the same as the many churches in the area.

Thirdly, the volume is at the discretion of the muezzin. In a world already concerned with noise pollution, it is just one more thing that gets on residents' nerves. In Israel (especially Jerusalem) where both Jews and Arabs live side by side, the excess volume is sometimes a "goad" more than calling people to come to the mosques to pray when those who are most religious are already at the mosque or heading there. In Jerusalem it has become more like a call to arms as many of the civilians want to ban the loudspeakers altogether.

There is room for both sides to compromise. However, Arabs in Jerusalem will never compromise and the more complaints they get about the volume, the bigger amplifiers the purchase and the louder they turn up the volume. It's kind of "kicking the bees nest". A lot of people are fed up with it, especially where society is modernized.

[MightyGiants]

You are correct. However, I doubt there are sophisticated measuring instruments to track the sun to the second, or even the minute. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's much more freelance than that.

Sometimes I feel like there is an effort (not by people here on this board) to portray Muslims as primitive and in a less than positive light.  JBG's comments show how little so many people in our Country know about them and how assumptions tend to paint them in a less than flattering light

Here are the prayer times for Jerusalem

May 18   3:06 AM   4:40 AM   11:36 AM   3:16 PM   6:31 PM   7:59 PM


https://www.edarabia.com/prayer-times-jerusalem/

For more information, you might want to read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20Muslim%20work,Ptolemaic%20concepts%20into%20Islamic%20sciences.