Best and worst supporting casts

[Stringer Bell]

They literally followed your advice two years ago and it's been a disaster for Schoen. You really think he would bet his job on passing on a potential franchise QB at this point because of a PFF article? Wait two years to have a shot at being competitive? No thanks.

And once again, they did not follow my advice and right the ship because that involves bringing in talented players who produce. They have not done that at all.

[EDjohnst1981]

. What franchise QB is going to be available at #6? None. Which QB is worth trading a ransom of picks for when the team has a million holes? None. So what's your plan?

I like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.

[Stringer Bell]

I like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
[/quote

McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.

[EDjohnst1981]

I like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
[/quote

McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.

I didnt say it would happen.  I said I liked it.

[Doc16LT56]

. What franchise QB is going to be available at #6? None. Which QB is worth trading a ransom of picks for when the team has a million holes? None. So what's your plan?

If there is no franchise QB available in April then the entire discussion is moot. If you get the opportunity to get one of the big-3 QBs you take him. If you can't  get one of the three then it is what it is. But you don't pass on any of the three because of some misguided belief that you can build out a playoff roster then fill in the QB position at a later date. That is just institutionalizing the concept of QB hell. As it is the Giants have institutionalized low expectations and excuse making.

[T200]

I like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.

McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.

Saquon's value is whatever a team is willing to pay him. We can debate our perceived worth for him all day but it doesn't matter what we think... only what a team will pay.

[Doc16LT56]

And once again, they did not follow my advice and right the ship because that involves bringing in talented players who produce. They have not done that at all.

Under Schoen they used first round picks on Thibs, Neal, and Banks. If their next three first round picks are equivalent to these three, and we still don't have a QB, this team isn't going to be any better than it is today. You're hoping for better picks, which is fair, we all want that. But without a legitimate franchise QB to tie everything together, it's not going to work.

[MightyGiants]

McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.

Saquon's value is whatever a team is willing to pay him. We can debate our perceived worth for him all day but it doesn't matter what we think... only what a team will pay.

Tim,

Fans (myself included) tend to overvalue players on our team's roster.   I try to counter that inclination by pretending the player isn't on our team and what I would be willing to pay to acquire him rather than what I want for a player.  I find looking at what I would be willing to give up to get a player gives me a bit more of a realistic view of a player's value.

Take Barkley; the guy's special speed is gone, and he has shown he has limited value in the receiving game.  He can be a solid RB, but he's injury-prone and aging.   I wouldn't give up more than say a 5th round pick, if that.

[T200]

Tim,

Fans (myself included) tend to overvalue players on our team's roster.   I try to counter that inclination by pretending the player isn't on our team and what I would be willing to pay to acquire him rather than what I want for a player.  I find looking at what I would be willing to give up to get a player gives me a bit more of a realistic view of a player's value.

Take Barkley; the guy's special speed is gone, and he has shown he has limited value in the receiving game.  He can be a solid RB, but he's injury-prone and aging.   I wouldn't give up more than say a 5th round pick, if that.

As fans, we have a certain perspective that, at times, can be spot-on. More often than not, though, our thinking as fans preclude us from thinking like a real NFL GM. They have a lot more information at their disposal and many other factors that we, as fans, don't consider when it comes to making deals with players.

We can sit behind our keyboards and say a player is worth this draft pick or this amount of money. But, as I said, the value is set by the person making the deal. It may not be worth it to *US* but if a deal is made, it was worth it for the parties involved.

[MightyGiants]

As fans, we have a certain perspective that, at times, can be spot-on. More often than not, though, our thinking as fans preclude us from thinking like a real NFL GM. They have a lot more information at their disposal and many other factors that we, as fans, don't consider when it comes to making deals with players.

We can sit behind our keyboards and say a player is worth this draft pick or this amount of money. But, as I said, the value is set by the person making the deal. It may not be worth it to *US* but if a deal is made, it was worth it for the parties involved.

Tim,

My favorite people to listen to when it comes to football are former GMs.  I used to listen to HOF GM Bill Polian (who seems to have stopped generating content) as much as possible, I listen to former GM Mike Lombardi (his books and his podcast), I listen to former GM Randy Mueller (his Athletic show podcast on Saturdays), I listen to former GM Mike Tanebuem (guest on podcasts as well as 33rd team).  I also curate a Twitter list of former GMs and other football execs.

https://twitter.com/i/lists/1372238271502286848

I listen to former GMs so I can better understand how GMs think.   There is value in listening to former players and pundits, but to me, it's limited compared to listening to the men who actually did the job at the GM level. 

[Bob In PA]

They spent the last two years righting the ship. It didn't work. If you can get one of the big-3 QBs, you go and get the QB.

Doc: Re-read the comment quoted in the original post.

It's about "average team PFF rush, receiving, pass blocking and run blocking grades (everything except passing").

To me, it's an argument that the problem is not the QB (it seems to show that the problem is supporting cast and depth).

Bob

[Doc16LT56]

Doc: Re-read the comment quoted in the original post.

It's about "average team PFF rush, receiving, pass blocking and run blocking grades (everything except passing").

To me, it's an argument that the problem is not the QB (it seems to show that the problem is supporting cast and depth).

Bob

Obviously I disagree with your interpretation.

The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.

Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.

Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.

The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.

This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.

Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.

[MightyGiants]

Obviously I disagree with your interpretation.

The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.

Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.

Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.

The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.

This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.

Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.

Since before Eli "got old" the offensive line has been a problem.  Receiver hasn't been much better with the exception of a couple of the OBJ years.   Coaching has been an issue since the Giants moved on from Coughlin.   GM hasn't exactly been a strength since Reese had a couple of good years early in his career.

QB was going to be a "problem" regardless of who was throwing the football.  QBs can't do it all by themselves they need support of the team they play on.

[Doc16LT56]

Since before Eli "got old" the offensive line has been a problem.  Receiver hasn't been much better with the exception of a couple of the OBJ years.  Coaching has been an issue since the Giants moved on from Coughlin.  GM hasn't exactly been a strength since Reese had a couple of good years early in his career.

QB was going to be a "problem" regardless of who was throwing the football.  QBs can't do it all by themselves they need support of the team they play on.

This is a laundry list of complaints, not a plan. What's the plan other than pray for better draft picks? At least building around a new QB is a plan we can all wrap our heads around.

[MightyGiants]

This is a laundry list of complaints, not a plan. What's the plan other than pray for better draft picks? At least building around a new QB is a plan we can all wrap our heads around.

The plan is for you to start at the foundation.  You have the proper leadership that sets a winning culture and way of doing things.  With that in place, you start building up your talent, starting with the trenches.   You always keep an eye on the chance to acquire a franchise-caliber QB, but you don't compromise or reach on that acquisition. If it's not there, you keep on building up the team.   The better the team is when you draft the QB the better the chances that QB has of succeeding.