Is there no Hope for the Giants??

[EDjohnst1981]

I don't think there's no hope at all.

On paper the schedule is brutal but I found Tim's one score game post to be interesting. It's usually the sort of cheerleading and points for optimism that fans like to hold onto during the close season.

But there are points to have some hope about:

1. The last draft did elicit some key contributors. Hopefully (that word again) that repeats this year
2. Linked to point 1, I think Nabers deserve a spot on his own - he's going to be an absolute elite receiver in this league. His numbers are outstanding for a rookie. They look even better when you consider the quality of QB play he received last year. Arguably, those 4 were the worst in the league - they certainly would have been in terms of points scored if the back-up QB didn't have the near unexplainably blow-out of the Colts.
3. Dexter Lawrence is a monster
4. Brian Burns was as expected - not quite elite but still very, very good. A team bereft of talent should not scoff at such production.
5. They finally have an answer on Daniel Jones - this will not be hanging over them going into the season. Mistakes were made, hopefully (again that word), management have learned from this error when it comes to self-evaluation and it's not replicated. However, the Giants have a blank slate to start again at the most important position on offense and I think the long-term aspect to that is exciting.

With those 5 factors in mind, I am optimistic about the future. That being said, I can understand the other side of that coin and be unhappy - especially with the pabalble disdain around the coaching and management (and the accompanying decisions they made).

I just disagree with them.

[T200]

Tim: Not really, IMO. In doing this exercise, we should not count games in which the Giants would have lost by two scores if the winning team hadn't "permitted" them to run out the clock scoring points that changed a 2-score game into a 1-score game. In at least a few games, the Giants were losing by two scores with about two minutes or so remaining, during which they managed (with the "permission" of the opponent) to score meaningless points. Bob

That's an excellent point, Bob. I think that adds more work to a basic exercise. As it is, it only takes a few minutes to glance at the scores and flip the win and loss.

In your exercise, they would have to watch each game to see how they played out and determine if the leading team let off the gas.

[Woody]

I'm hopefully the Giants lame duck coach makes a few coaching changes before too long . ....havent heard of anything on that front yet ...has anyone?


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[katkavage]

I'm hopefully the Giants lame duck coach makes a few coaching changes before too long . ....havent heard of anything on that front yet ...has anyone?


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He can't really. No one is coming to the Giants for a lame duck regime. Hard to have hope. Its not like mediocre coaches and evaluators suddenly turn into something they just are not. I'll be optimistic next year with, I hope, a better regime.

[T200]

He can't really. No one is coming to the Giants for a lame duck regime. Hard to have hope. Its not like mediocre coaches and evaluators suddenly turn into something they just are not. I'll be optimistic next year with, I hope, a better regime.

That's the problem with having an owner who runs his mouth without considering the impact his statements have.

More than anything, I truly wish he would learn to just STFU.

[MightyGiants]

I went over the BBI this morning to see if there were any stories of news I missed.  Well, according to @LennG at least 3/4 of the posters over at BBI have an "Agenda" because compared to the overwhelming negativity over at BBI, this place is absolutely Pollyanna.   

Between Mara, retaining Schoen and Daboll (and apparently Bowen), not having a clear path to solving the QB need, and the terrible record, I have never seen such a pessimistic tone among fans, players, pundits, and reporters.  Even Michael Strahan (the NYG cheerleader since retiring) is taking his shots.

https://x.com/awthentik/status/1878552114349109746?s=46&t=EbkGrGcccXeBlrmNxtAW9g


Schoen and Daboll will have to get either extremely lucky and pull off some sort of miracle, or 2025 is going to be one rough and bumpy ride.

[londonblue]

As comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:

Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.

GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.

Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.

None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.

[T200]

As comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:

Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.

GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.

Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.

None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.

Thanks for sharing that, LB.

It all falls in line with how I view them as well.

[MightyGiants]

As comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:

Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.

GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.

Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.

None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.

Thank you, Neal.  This sort of raw, uncensored assessment from another team is, in my opinion, some of the best information we can get on the state of the team.

As you said, it is less than encouraging.  It's typical Giants' luck that the respected person is the one that the team appears to be losing. 

I am not the least surprised that the league considers Schoen's appearance on HK a complete disaster.  While HK was only a glimpse, those who know how NFL front offices are supposed to operate recognized that the Giant's front office doesn't operate like a good one.

I guess the real questions are these:

1)  Can Daboll adjust his coaching style, ala Coughlin, to reduce or minimize the weaknesses discussed?

2)  How does Schoen start working smarter, especially after losing his best advisor? 

3)  Will Mara ever crack down on that family back channel?

[MightyGiants]

Thanks for sharing that, LB.

It all falls in line with how I view them as well.

Tim,

If you view the GM and HC in the way that other front offices in the league view them (via Neal's excellent post), what strengths or things you believe Schoen and Daboll can realistically change about themselves led you to believe they are capable of turning things around and leading the team to success?

[Bob In PA]

2)  How does Schoen start working smarter, especially after losing his best advisor? 

Rich: I missed this news. Who is the "best" advisor of whom you are speaking? Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: I missed this news. Who is the "best" advisor of whom you are speaking? Bob

If you read the outstanding post by @londonblue, they mention their respect for Cowden, who is currently a senior advisor.  The reports are he is going to rejoin Vrabel in New England

[EDjohnst1981]

As comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:

Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.

GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.

Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.

None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.

Intersting insight - thanks for sharing.

It's similar to what many have been saying for months. I think very few people are entirely happy with the performance of both of them.

However, another strong draft from Schoen and those concerns will mitigate.

Dabs I'm slightly more concerned about but outside of Vrabel, who was never coming here, I didn't see a suitable replacement on the market.

[T200]

Tim,

If you view the GM and HC in the way that other front offices in the league view them (via Neal's excellent post), what strengths or things you believe Schoen and Daboll can realistically change about themselves led you to believe they are capable of turning things around and leading the team to success?

Good question, Rich.

GM: He's still learning how to deal with Mara and the Meddlers. I think he understands what he's dealing with and has made changes in how he will deal with them going forward. I think he has ammunition to push back against Mara and the confidence to do so. Hard Knocks was not a good look on him but I also think people place way too much importance on what they saw in a limited context.

HC: He has more work to do than Schoen. As much as I defend him, I'm not 100% sold on him. My defense of him is primarily based on his not having a legit opportunity to demonstrate what his offense can do with a legit QB. His play calling has been suspect in too many games regardless of the QB. I don't like that he took over play calling but I understand why he did it. I do feel good in that he's not afraid to make changes to his staff where he feels it's necessary, regardless of the relationship he has with his staff, be it friend or foe.

With Jones gone, they are free from the excuse and boat anchor that primarily held their team back. This is 100% their team. How successful they are next season will be hugely based on their QB and the overall health of the team. Without knowing who they will get at QB, I can't say how confident I am. Ask me after FA and the draft. The other big unknown is what they do for an offensive coordinator.

[babywhales]

There's hope, of course there is hope

No one expected the 11-5 trip to the playoffs in 2016

Nor did they expect the 9-7-1 season ending in the divisional round of playoffs in 22

Sooner or later more will go right than go wrong

Go Giants !!