Big Blue Huddle

QuoteI blame the majority media for creating a "bash DJ" emotion among many fans. From the very get go of the draft when we took Daniel Jones, the talking heads (that's what they are because they are not coaches hired for their incredible insight, knowledge, and hands on development of QBs), went insane over the pick because (as all talking heads) they need appear profound in their knowledge so that fans actually buy their BS. Now, they (talking heads) are deeply invested in proving themselves right and will never let it go because they need the ego-boost that they are worthy of getting big bucks to tell fans what they should feel, rather than their own feelings about a player. The talking heads haven't let go of their hatred for Jones since the moment he was chosen. In so doing, they have converted a lot of fans into buying their BS

How many criticisms from talking heads talked negatively about Dak Prescott after his 14 fumbles and 10 interceptions in 2021 (in 12 games). Nary a complaint from talking heads about his ridiculous turnover rate (multiple times more than DJ) or about his salary. BTW, DJ had 7 fumbles in 21...literally half that of Prescott. Most likely, talking heads have the same shortsighted mindset that is, "all winning is done by the QB" and therefore, Prescott is worth his 4-year, $160 million contract, which includes no-trade and no-tag clauses  Could it be because Prescott plays behind a real NFL offensive line...or that their defense was excellent...or that their skill players were better than average?

Here's another interesting stat:

What QB had the most turnovers in their career?

NAME                    TO    % RATE
Brett Favre            363    7.1
Eli Manning            300    7.0
Drew Brees            285    7.6
Vinny Testaverde    278    6.9
Peyton Manning    268    7.7
Ben Roethlisberger  262    7.6
Tom Brady              260    7.4

BTW, the lowest TO rate is held by Kerry Collins

I guess what can be taken from that is that successful QBs tend to be gunslingers who take more chances than less successful QBs

Regardless...getting down on Carl Banks for being frustrated with the negative vibe, not only from fans, but from most media outlets, is a normal reaction. That same frustration is held by all the players on the team who have great faith in DJ, as do I

To sum it up:

I believe DJ is extremely talented (height, arm strength, highly mobile, accurate, etc), as do all the players on the team and the coaches. No one from the comfort of their couch, beer in hand, watching TV knows what DJ has been told to do, or even a hint of an idea how well or fast he processes information...even when they claim to be mind readers. And yeah, we are all well-aware that the team has sucked for a long time now. We don't need more stats to know that. Yet, not all of us believe a great QB can make a "less than mediocre team" to the Super Bowl, nor are we stuck in that "short-sighted" mindset that it's a "team game". All the regurgitated stats proving DJ sucks does not change anyone's opinion. The problem has been across the board and is not an overnight fix. Trying to convince the rest of us that we would be a winning team if we just drafted a different QB isn't changing minds

Oh well...so much for staying out of it...duhhh

I also had major question marks in my mind every year on offense since DJ became the NYG QB.....

Who in tarnation is this OL coach and why couldn't we pick someone with a stronger resume/track record? (Hunter, Columbo, Gugliemo, Booby Johnson)

What kind of offensive system is this guy going to run? (Garrett)

Who are these questionable receiving options we brought in that have major risks associated with each of them? --- Tate & Randolph & Waller (too old/downside of career), Galloday (super injury prone), Toney (big time character risk, dedication to the game)

And some of the OL we have brought in of course have been terrible misses too.

This year 'feels' significantly different.

-Nabers comes in as not just a top 6 pick in the draft but with a rare high franchise perennial pro bowl kind of grade for a WR.

-As mentioned before, Runyan has tremendous pass pro analytics

-Bracillo's resume strongly suggests he will raise ALL 5 OL's games to play more as a unit and probably get a guy, or two or three playing at a much higher level than they did under Johnson.

-Not one OL will likely be a rookie on the line this year unless multiple injuries beset the line.

- The young receivers Hyatt and Wan'Dale will be a year older and more mature.

We didn't get Drake. I agree he had top 5 QB in the NFL upside. Short of that Giants felt no QB available had greater upside than Daniel Jones. I don't blame them for feeling that way.

We now all need to root as one for DJ to succeed with the better supporting cast around him.

This year is exciting to me because I see all the risky measures NYG took in helping DJ: From bad OL coach after bad OL coach, too much youth on the OL, one bad receiving acquisition after another (Toney, Golladay, Rudolph, Waller etc.) finally being addressed with much higher-probability and well thought out additions.

- Carmen Bracillo comes in with a resume that clearly rivals any OL coach we have had here since Pat Flaherty. AN OL coach is one of the most important coaches on a staff after HC/OC/DC.

-Nabers is probably the most sure-fire addition in the receiving corps NYG has made since probably OBJ. Yes he is a rookie, but he is 100% a blue-chip prospect. The kind of player that bucks the long learning curve and can become a WR1 in year 1 or close to it.

-Runyan is according to many advanced analytics one of the top pass protecting guards in the NFL. This is a low key great signing considering some other guys at OG got closer to 20M a year vs 10 M a year. We also added 4 additional veteran options for a total of 5 OL added this offseason. They are not joking around here anymore. No rookies will be starting on the OL this year and only 1 2nd year player in JMS who is supposedly super smart and under Bracillo has a chance for big improvement this year.

-One of those other 4, Eluemenor provides a quality player that Bricillo knows and can play either RG or RT depending on Evan Neal's development.

As a true blue fan through and through I would love nothing more than to see this year become DJ's redemption tour where he just lights it up with all these better , more well thought out options around him. The mass media will be in an absolute tizzy searching for answers on why he looks so good. While some of us here will know the obvious answer, he finally got a competent support system around him from better coaches to better players.

Some intriguing sub-plots to monitor:

1. 7-on-7, 9-on-7, and 11-on-11 drills. First taste of what this team's offense and defense will look like.

2. Hard Knocks will continue taping presumably

3. Malik Nabers vs Tae Banks begins......

4. DJ is ready to play in non contact action any time soon?

5. Drew Lock camp battle?

6. Brian Burns in Blue.

7. A beefed up Kayvon Thibs. Hopefully not too muscled up, we have a bad history with guys who put on too muscle and then playing slower and/or becoming injury prone.

8. A surprise name or two as standouts in drills? Always fun to look forward to who stands out.

Benn busy at work so not sure if this was posted in here (or elsewhere).....

Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The #Giants have all of the sudden built out one of the fastest WR corps in the NFL
Malik Nabers 4.38
Darius Slayton 4.39
Jalin Hyatt 4.40
Wan'Dale Robinson 4.44
From an Xs&Os standpoint, having this level of speed on the field should force Ds to cover every blade of grass.

Dan Schneier
@DanSchneierNFL
·
21h
The Malik Nabers addition is going to make it difficult for defenses to shade coverage over the top of Jalin Hyatt like we saw at times in 2023.
Instead, we could be looking at a lot more rolled coverages toward Nabers & one-on-one opportunities for Hyatt to beat his man #Giants

Daboll when he came on board made a comment that we must be one of the slowest teams in the NFL. He emphasizes speed kind of like that Dolphins ball coach does.

THey have transformed team speed and Theo is pretty fast for a 6'6 255-260 pound TE too.

MacAdoo was itching to get Geno playing over Eli so anything can happen when you are not the regime that drafted said QB.

Apart from that, I think DJ would beat out Lock if they are on level playing ground.

LOL, at least Aaron Wellman is back. He was a low-key big loss to the S&C staff.

On another note, I like how our overall staff is shaping up with just two kind of unknowns in Bowen and Ghobriel TBD starting this year.

The offense especially seems to have every critical component in place now (at least in theory) from coaches to talent in the key areas for the QB to have the tools to sink or swim.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 06, 2024, 11:15:13 AMTYRONE TRACY JR., RB, NEW YORK GIANTS
The New York Giants made the (wise) decision to let Saquon Barkley walk in free agency after six years of production. The Giants are in a semi-rebuild, so throwing even more money at a running back who has struggled to stay healthy didn't make sense. Instead, the Giants signed Devin Singletary to a modest contract and didn't select a running back in the first four rounds of the 2024 NFL Draft. However, they added one of this class's most intriguing backs in former wide receiver Tyrone Tracy Jr.

Tracy started his career with the Iowa Hawkeyes, appearing in 38 games as a wide receiver. But after modest production, he transferred to Purdue and started five games at receiver (2022). Ahead of the 2023 season, Tracy transitioned to running back, which likely saved his career. In his first year playing the position, Tracy led the Big Ten in yards per carry (6.3) and scored eight rushing touchdowns.

While Tracy isn't ready to be a full-time running back (146 career carries in college), he is an incredible athlete who is a threat to score on any play. He posted a 9.78 RAS score, which ranks 42nd all-time (out of 1,903 running backs) after posting a 40-inch vertical jump at 209 pounds.

Only Singletary is ahead of him on the depth chart, so Tracy should find a role right away. He is the most explosive running back on the roster and could have a Tony Pollard-like impact on the Giants in Year 1.

https://www.the33rdteam.com/day-3-nfl-rookies-who-could-make-instant-impact/

I would agree with this. RBs tend to have the lowest learning and impact curve of all the positions. The hardest thing to learn is usually the pass blocking aspect. Even with that, rookie RBs are often utilized in play designs that require the RB less chance to stay in and pass block until they are better ready in this area.

I am really excited about this Tracy pick and like the pick a lot more than the Gray pick of last year. Although Gray with a better offensive line might be a bit more productive when he gets going downhill.

He will need to perform at a level that is commensurate with the better talent that is assembled around him.

Provided that the OL under Bracillo takes the expected and hopeful jump to league average or better in the advanced metrics like time to pressure and quality of pressure, and Nabers ends up being closer to OBJ and J'Marr Chase and Justin Jefferson rookie year than Rueben Randle, then DJ's production should not just slightly improve but drastically.

I hate placing numbers on this kind of thing because there are so many things that can happen in a season, but I'll play along.

His rookie year he threw for 24TDs and 12 INTs in 12 games.  I would fully expect something around that 2:1 per game ratio to justify continuing with him. So something in the area of 34TDs and 17INTs and 4000+ yards over a full season.

4000 yards by the way would put him right around the top 10 of last years QB rankings.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-yard-leaders-2023-to-2024

For more context 34 TDs would have been top 2 last year.

Top 10 puts him around 25TDs

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-passing-td-leaders-2023-to-2024


So asking for 34 as a barometer to keep him may be a bit extreme lol

25 TDs relative to last years top 10 is probably a fairer number.

Quote from: files58 on May 06, 2024, 10:20:19 AMYes Igor got his stick on the second goal, it happened very quickly, and Anderson should have stopped Panarin's eventual game winner. Carolina will make some adjustments within their structure. However they play one game, Pressure, and at a consistent, constant level. They will need to raise their level of play to beat this Ranger team. I don't know that they can. If they do, hats off to them. That's their DNA under Brind'A'Mor. Love that already in Game 1 they are frustrating Goetzel. He got chippy yesterday.  I'm watching all the series. This Ranger team can beat all 7 remaining teams, and can lose to the same. It's that close this year. Would love to see an Adamms Family train wreck between Fla-Bos. 

This team like the Knicks seem to have a special level of intangibles. Their cohesiveness and ability to perform in the clutch makes them really unique. Also if Shesterkin continues his post all star performance throughout the playoffs, I like their chances to win the whole thing.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 12:08:06 PMThe Simms and Eli example are now 25 and 40 years old; plus, Eli didn't take 6 years to mature. He was a SB MVP by year 3...it's an overused and poor example. 

Today, the game is fundamentally different and QB maturation reflects that reality.  Kids have access to professional camps from age 8 on, colleges are no longer running wishbones and student body left/right; today college offenses are as sophisticated as the NFL. College nutrition and strength program are also on par with NFL clubs. It no longer takes 3+ years for NFL QBs to emerge. Just look at every QB to enter the NFL in the past decade; you'll notice an obvious and fundamental trend. 

Matt , Year 4 for Eli I believe was his Super Bowl year. Prior to that, the teams offense was quite up and down despite having guys like Shockey, Toomer, Plaxico, Tiki (who was a better pass catcher than Barkley) etc. They got blanked by the Panthers in a playoff game even. In fact even the Super Bowl year the offense was inconsistent despite having a whole tier level of weapons better than DJ and an offensive line coached by Pat Flaherty that had Diehl, Seubert, Snee, O'Hara and MCKenzie.

 If we are being honest, that combination between OL coach, OL talent and receiving weapons is in another stratosphere compared to anything that DJ has ever had thus far in his career.

I think members here have dug their heels in at this point.

My point is simple , I think we can all agree that DJs support system when you combine the 3 items mentioned above has been absolute bottom barrel. This year in itself will be different because we all (or mostly) agree this will probably be the best combination of those 3 things in his career.

Let's see what he can do when he actually has the main things that most successful QBs in the NFL have. Like I said, in an ideal world I would have rather had Maye because I think the talent is top 5 QB special. But short of that, I still believe there is at least a possibility that DJ could be good with the support system he has around him now.

This year may finally and mercifully be the year we figure out if the greatest failure was DJ or the even greater failure was taking so long to get a half decent supporting cast around him.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:54:03 AMThe NFL is a for profit business. It's all about maxing out profits. That is not the case with education and teachers. So I respectfully disagree with this comparison.

To Mighty's point some think finding a special talent at a position like QB is harder than finding a 'good enough' coach to coach him.

So I think there is some truth in what everyone is asserting here.

The two biggest ingredients this offense was missing under the assumption that most agree Daboll/Kafka are half decent or better offensive coaches, was WR1 and OL coach.

I honestly don't think it's as much the talent on the OL as much as it is getting 5 players to play like one and actually being able to pick up even the simplest stunts and twists as a unit.

With that said between Bracillo and Nabers , I'm the most excited I've ever been to watch our offense in quite sometime. Nabers is coming in with the potential not just to be some middling WR1 but that separation ability he has is absolutely world class. He did it in the SEC and his size, speed change of direction combination is right there with the likes of a J'Marr Chase or a faster Brandon Aiyuk.

The ironic thing is there was quite a ground-swell brewing amongst the fanbase to nix both Simms and Eli because both of them took longer than expected to really flourish within the Giants offense. Part was maturation, part was getting talent around them. DJ is in a similar boat. I really don't see Dave Brown here. He is not beyond hope in my humblest of opinions, gentleman.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:38:19 AMThe best players get paid a lot more than the best coaches, and, unlike coaches, players are bound by a salary cap so it's even harder to pay them than it is coaches.

Could this discrepancy between player and coach pay be because players are more valuable, or is it because the people who run NFL teams and have spent their whole careers and almost their whole lives deeply involved in this sport are all lost and just don't get it?

Tangible vs the intangible.  Teachers are some of the most important people in the entire world yet look at their salaries lol

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 04, 2024, 11:18:54 AMThere is nothing to resolve if you agree that players are more important than coaches overall. That's all I am saying. If you think coaches are more important than players, or even that the two are equal, then
we can mutually respectfully agree to disagree.

I think this is a fascinating topic but even this is fairly nuanced. It depends on the situation. Some players are naturally motivated for greatness and need little motivation so from that standpoint coaching is lessened. However where coaching is always critical is scheme. A Garrett scheme in today's NFL is easily neutered no matter what talent you have on the field. It was a horrific scheme. We even see a guy like Engram do quite a bit better outside that Garrett scheme.

Here's another great recent example: Eagles last year were not diametrically different than the prior year talent wise. The biggest difference on that team is they lost a marquis OC and DC that were so highly esteemed in NFL circles, that they got promoted to head coaches elsewhere. The OC and DC they replaced them with last year were not good and it subsequently manifested on the field.  Roseman being the strong GM he is, wasted no time replacing them with marquis guys in Moore and Fangio.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 04, 2024, 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.

The coaching , he did have with Shurmur at least from an offensive standpoint but he wasn't more than an average to above average offensive coach. He isn't like some hot name in coaching circles right now, to be quite frank. However he definitely wasn't terrible either. Garrett was absolutely horrific and Daboll/Kafka is likely an above average to better than that coach.

However, with that said, you also need an offensive line to be functional , combined with some level of decent WRs. When you take those two critical aspects of the support system into account, it's hard to argue this wasn't a bottom of the barrel combination his entire career.

I agree the kitchen wasn't bare but it wasn't far off.