Best and worst supporting casts

[Doc16LT56]

The plan is for you to start at the foundation.  You have the proper leadership that sets a winning culture and way of doing things.  With that in place, you start building up your talent, starting with the trenches.   You always keep an eye on the chance to acquire a franchise-caliber QB, but you don't compromise or reach on that acquisition. If it's not there, you keep on building up the team.   The better the team is when you draft the QB the better the chances that QB has of succeeding.

MG, they've literally done that the last two years. You don't like the results but you think the results will be different over the next two years?

[MightyGiants]

MG, they've literally done that the last two years. You don't like the results but you think the results will be different over the next two years?

The Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over.   Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.

I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team.  Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.

[Fletch]

I understand the logic around getting your ducks in order before bringing in a QB

I do not see the logic in that. How would you know if you righted the ship anyway if your QB appears to a high end back-up who isn't on the field like 40% of the time?

I mean I see the Jets are on that list. Should they trade Aaron Rodgers away? Did the Patriots say gee why draft Drew Bledsoe when the rest of the team stinks? NO! The steps are coach, QB, everything else.

The only one saying otherwise has a personal , emotional connection to be proved right about Daniel jones

[MightyGiants]

The steps are coach, QB, everything else.

75% of the teams in the divisional and conference championship show this is NOT the way you build a contender.  It's coach/GM, solid talent base, QB, then fill any remaining holes.  Simply put, drafting a QB to a poor team stacks the odds against the QB prospect, while drafting a QB to a solid team greatly increases the chances for a QB to develop into a franchise QB.

[Doc16LT56]

The Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over.  Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.

I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team.  Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.

Of course you struggle to see it. You spent years building up a mythology around Daniel Jones and now you're disappointed. Just like the rest of the organization, you're stuck in a no man's land (otherwise known as QB hell).

What has the Schoen regime done that you have a problem with? They drafted the best edge rush prospect in their first draft, followed by a so-called can't miss ORT, followed by a dynamic slot receiver. Then they drafted a guy with shutdown corner ability, followed by the best Center prospect, followed by a deep threat WR.

They locked up All Pro talents at DT and OLT,and signed a near All Pro performer at ILB, all of whom are universally viewed as foundational pieces.

They've followed the roster building playbook exactly how any person who wants to diminish the impact of the QB position would want to build a roster.

The problem is the players they drafted aren't as good as their draft position would indicate (sound familiar?).

The coaching staff is a mess. The GM may or may not be in over his head. We don't know yet.

Where is this so-called plan for building the foundation and how is it any different than the plan they implemented over the last two years? Find better players. Beyond that, what? Wait for the Daboll/Schoen regime to implode (like so many of their predecessors)? What are we trying to get done here?

[MightyGiants]

Of course you struggle to see it. You spent years building up a mythology around Daniel Jones and now you're disappointed. Just like the rest of the organization, you're stuck in a no man's land (otherwise known as QB hell).

What has the Schoen regime done that you have a problem with? They drafted the best edge rush prospect in their first draft, followed by a so-called can't miss ORT, followed by a dynamic slot receiver. Then they drafted a guy with shutdown corner ability, followed by the best Center prospect, followed by a deep threat WR.

They locked up All Pro talents at DT and OLT,and signed a near All Pro performer at ILB, all of whom are universally viewed as foundational pieces.

They've followed the roster building playbook exactly how any person who wants to diminish the impact of the QB position would want to build a roster.

The problem is the players they drafted aren't as good as their draft position would indicate (sound familiar?).

The coaching staff is a mess. The GM may or may not be in over his head. We don't know yet.

Where is this so-called plan for building the foundation and how is it any different than the plan they implemented over the last two years? Find better players. Beyond that, what? Wait for the Daboll/Schoen regime to implode (like so many of their predecessors)? What are we trying to get done here?

Doc,

Can we dispense with the personal attacks ("you spent years building up a mythology") and simply respectfully discuss football?


Bill Parcells says  "You are what your record says are."

If this team were so well built, you would have former GM Jamie Diamond listing the Giants among the 5 teams in need of the most work.

The Giants don't appear to be any closer to being contenders now than they were 2 years ago.

As for mistakes, both Schoen and Daboll have made many, from Schoen reaching on undersized players or spending a draft fortune on O-linemen while failing to get even one quality starter.   You can also throw in signing guys like Parris Campbell, trading for an injury-prone TE, acquiring too many slot WRs, keeping the wrong guys at cut down, trying to make RB Eric Gray the punt returner, wasting 12 million on Barkley, not exercising Daniel Jones' 5th-year option (which would have meant this was they would have been deciding this offseason what to offer Jones if they were inclined to sign him at all).  There was also Schoen letting now Pro Bowler Julian Love walk.  Schoen also traded away draft assets to get guys who barely contributed, Bogie Basham and Isiah Simmons.  Building in the trenches is important, and Schoen has failed to do that properly on both sides of the ball. 

Joe Schoen also has some responsibility for the coaching drama, as part of being a good GM is keeping the peace and resolving differences before they become toxic messes.


Perhaps Schoen's biggest shortcoming is he is singing Ronnie Barnes' praises instead of quietly getting the man responsible for the team's decade-plus "bad luck with injuries streak (aka being among the most injured team year after year).

[Doc16LT56]

Two additional thoughts for @MightyGiants:

1. That you read my statement as a personal attack says a lot. I challenge you to think more deeply about why I said what I said.

2. No one thinks the team is well built. The difference is some of us have accepted we can't get to well built without a QB.

[Doc16LT56]

I'll add an additional thought:

3. You are focused on results rather than objectives. If you look at the moves Schoen has made (not the results of those moves), he is clearly trying to build a foundation. Some of you are deflecting the fact that your preferred process is aligned with what Schoen has already done. It didn't work then and is unlikely to work now.

[MightyGiants]

Two additional thoughts for @MightyGiants:

1. That you read my statement as a personal attack says a lot. I challenge you to think more deeply about why I said what I said.

2. No one thinks the team is well built. The difference is some of us have accepted we can't get to well built without a QB.

To point number one, I will expand (since you asked).  Your commentary was a violation of point 7 of the 10 signs of intellectual honesty.


7. Address the argument instead of attacking the person making the argument. Ad hominem arguments are a clear sign of intellectual dishonesty. However, often times, the dishonesty is more subtle. For example, someone might make a token effort at debunking an argument and then turn significant attention to the person making the argument, relying on stereotypes, guilt-by-association, and innocent-sounding gotcha questions.

Plus number 9 is critical thinking skills.  Of those you violated

5. uncover assumptions and biases

and

11. understand your own biases and values

By assuming you knew what motivated me or how I was thinking you broke rule 5 (and to a lesser extent 11).  Plus, you are assuming you were free of your own biases or imposing your own values as you assume that anyone who hadn't agreed with you must be badly flawed.

I hope you find that enough consideration.


2. You really have a strange assumption/claim there.  For a team to be a contender, they need to have a franchise QB (you couldn't be more wrong claiming that I don't believe that to be the case).  The difference is you claim you can't build without a QB while I say that ideally a team needs a solid foundation before adding a QB.

[Doc16LT56]

Shocking and somewhat comical that you think I've made a "token" argument in this thread. I've been fairly clear (and consistent over the years) on my thoughts regarding the QB position and the QB hell this organization has existed in going on 6 years.

[MightyGiants]

I'll add an additional thought:

3. You are focused on results rather than objectives. If you look at the moves Schoen has made (not the results of those moves), he is clearly trying to build a foundation. Some of you are deflecting the fact that your preferred process is aligned with what Schoen has already done. It didn't work then and is unlikely to work now.

Doc,

We differ in that I see that the process was flawed.  You start with leadership. You bring in a solid GM and HC pairing (Schoen knew Daboll, and I am seriously wondering if Schoen failed in step one)

After you have that (which is in serious doubt), you start building the team, focusing on the trenches. Now, here is where we differ.  Do you think just throwing drafted players at the problem will fix it?  I believe it starts with having really good line coaches on both sides of the ball.  The Giants and Wink did that when they hired Andre Patterson to coach the defensive line, but Schoen failed badly, allowing Daboll to bring his buddy Bobby Johson with him from Buffalo (worse, Schoen worked with BJ and should have seen the problem).  Thanks to the failure to secure a quality O-line coach Schoen has sunk a ton of draft capital into the position with nothing to show for it.

[Fletch]

75% of the teams in the divisional and conference championship show this is NOT the way you build a contender.  It's coach/GM, solid talent base, QB, then fill any remaining holes.  Simply put, drafting a QB to a poor team stacks the odds against the QB prospect, while drafting a QB to a solid team greatly increases the chances for a QB to develop into a franchise QB.

What 75% ?

I know you cannot be talking about the Lions. And you should not be thinking that was the Chiefs situation. The Chiefs had Alex Smith , a guy with a top 10 QBR multiple seasons; a 3x pro bowler; a leader in Y/PA in the league, a 2020 comeback player of the year. He had issues that could not get them over the hump or so people thought that with Jared Goff too .... so Daniel Jones is Alex Smith now? Not even close.

[MightyGiants]

What 75% ?

I know you cannot be talking about the Lions. And you should not be thinking that was the Chiefs situation. The Chiefs had Alex Smith , a guy with a top 10 QBR multiple seasons; a 3x pro bowler; a leader in Y/PA in the league, a 2020 comeback player of the year. He had issues that could not get them over the hump or so people thought that with Jared Goff too .... so Daniel Jones is Alex Smith now? Not even close.

Of the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB.  Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).


If you expand this out to the teams from last week.  3 (the Bucs, Packers, and Bills) had solid teams before acquiring their QB and only the Texans had a weak team before getting their QB (although they acquired talent and a good coach while acquiring their QB)

[Gmo11]

The Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over.   Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.

I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team.  Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.

That's not exactly fair.  They did make the playoffs in year one had Devito starting half the games in Year 2.  And he somehow went on a 3 game winning streak which made absolutely no sense.  With a real QB this team would have been in the playoffs again.

[MightyGiants]

That's not exactly fair.  They did make the playoffs in year one had Devito starting half the games in Year 2.  And he somehow went on a 3 game winning streak which made absolutely no sense.  With a real QB this team would have been in the playoffs again.

If you believe the NFL's worst team for supporting their QB, just needed a QB to contend, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion.   I can't help but remember that the terrible protection contributed to all those injuries, they just weren't "bad luck"