As of now this is the order per PFF, Oct 30 2023
1. QB CALEB WILLIAMS, USC
2. QB DRAKE MAYE, NORTH CAROLINA
3. QB BO NIX, OREGON
4. QB MICHAEL PENIX JR., WASHINGTON
5. QB RILEY LEONARD, DUKE
6. QB J.J. MCCARTHY, MICHIGAN
7. QB SHEDEUR SANDERS, COLORADO
8. QB MICHAEL PRATT, TULANE
9. QB JAYDEN DANIELS, LSU
10. QB QUINN EWERS, TEXAS
Of course its still early and the ranking will change. Who do you like? Who do you think will be there when we pick?
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-position-rankings-quarterbacks
And with the 6th over all pick........we take the QB from Duke
McCarthy is way too low and Leonard is way too high.
Quote from: madbadger on October 31, 2023, 01:09:13 AMMcCarthy is way too low and Leonard is way too high.
Agreed and I thought Ewers was a little low too
I don't care what Riley Leonard does on the field. I don't care what he does at the combine. I don't care what he scores on the wonderlic or whatever test they use now is. If they draft another QB from duke I'm going to lose it. Let him be great elsewhere because if he came to the Giants he'd suck out loud.
I also think as of now I'd have McCarthy 3rd over Bo Nix mainly because Nix is old. So is Penix. But I think skills wise they're all in the same tier. McCarthy just has more potential to become better by virtue of being 3 years younger than those other two. However if Daboll fell in full bloom love with Nix or Penix I wouldn't be upset.
Just please don't take Riley. I'm begging you.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 31, 2023, 06:43:26 AMI don't care what Riley Leonard does on the field. I don't care what he does at the combine. I don't care what he scores on the wonderlic or whatever test they use now is. If they draft another QB from duke I'm going to lose it. Let him be great elsewhere because if he came to the Giants he'd suck out loud.
I also think as of now I'd have McCarthy 3rd over Bo Nix mainly because Nix is old. So is Penix. But I think skills wise they're all in the same tier. McCarthy just has more potential to become better by virtue of being 3 years younger than those other two. However if Daboll fell in full bloom love with Nix or Penix I wouldn't be upset.
Just please don't take Riley. I'm begging you.
The mockery the Giants will be on the receiving end of if they take another Duke QB will be like nothing any of us have ever seen.
I see quantity on that list not necessarily quality.
Michigan played 5 top 25 defenses last year (Iowa, PSU, Illinois, OSU, TCU)
So, in same number of games:
Caleb Williams vs Top 25 defenses, 78-148 (51%), 860 yards (5.8 YPA), 6 TDs, 6 INTS, rating 105.4
JJ McCarthy vs Top 25 defenses, 85-140 (60.7%), 1,114 yards (8.0 YPA), 6 TDs, 3 INTs, rating 137.4
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 31, 2023, 08:22:26 AMI see quantity on that list not necessarily quality.
This QB draft class is supposed to be very strong according to draft experts. I am assuming you don't think any will be any good?
Quote from: sooners56 on October 31, 2023, 10:27:55 AMThis QB draft class is supposed to be very strong according to draft experts. I am assuming you don't think any will be any good?
All of this is a matter of opinion of course. I happen to think there's at least 4 or 5 guys that are going to go in the 1st round. History shows us that a couple will be good and a couple will be bad. But unlike the Jones year where really only 1 QB SHOULD have gone in the first round (spoiler alert: it wasn't Jones) this year there's plenty of guys that should and will go in the 1st round.
Opinions are always strong on QB prospects every year (everywhere, not just this board), but the reality is nobody has a clue and people are wrong all the time. NFL GMs and scouts get it wrong all the time, so even though fans love to have firm opinions nobody really knows. Predicting which college QBs will be good pros is one of the harder things to do in all of sports-related prognostication.
Quote from: sooners56 on October 31, 2023, 10:27:55 AMThis QB draft class is supposed to be very strong according to draft experts. I am assuming you don't think any will be any good?
I've watched the number 1 guy a couple of times and came away unimpressed both times. The story is that his team isn't good and they are so outclassed that he cannot overcome the difference in team levels. I believe he is 0 fer against top 25 teams. Hard for me to get excited for that even though there is arm talent. Then there is a story that he wants a percent of ownership with his 1st contract. Not sure if it's 100% true, but when you add that to inability to beat top competition, it doesn't make me think the rest of the class is so great when this guy seems to be the clear number 1.
Further, when people say "its a deep QB class", what does that mean? Does that mean they believe there are 5 guys that will become solid starters in the NFL? Its one thing when you have a deep WR group (or other position) and teams can get a solid contributor in the 3rd round, but for the the QB position, that's worthless for teams looking for a starter. Maybe there will be 7 franchise QBs in this draft and I will be totally wrong.
Just going from what I have seen in the recent past, if 5 guys go in the 1st round, 2 of them will be successful, the others will be backups or worse within a few years. And maybe those 3 that are not good starters will be solid backups, and thats great for the depth of the class, but its not going to help the Giants.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 31, 2023, 10:48:12 AMOpinions are always strong on QB prospects every year (everywhere, not just this board), but the reality is nobody has a clue and people are wrong all the time. NFL GMs and scouts get it wrong all the time, so even though fans love to have firm opinions nobody really knows. Predicting which college QBs will be good pros is one of the harder things to do in all of sports-related prognostication.
Agree. With the exception of the 2020 class, I don't think any recent QB class had the best pros taken 1st or even 2nd in some cases. The amount of research and time spent on these players by scouts, coaches and management is huge and they still get it wrong.
I can't speak to their skills relating to pro bowl but I have met Michael Pratt and character wise he is
a great person. He used to date the girl next door and you couldn't find a nicer more humble kid. I've seen Tulane 3/4 times and he has been very good but again how that translates to the pros is beyond my capabilities.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 31, 2023, 08:44:50 AMMichigan played 5 top 25 defenses last year (Iowa, PSU, Illinois, OSU, TCU)
So, in same number of games:
Caleb Williams vs Top 25 defenses, 78-148 (51%), 860 yards (5.8 YPA), 6 TDs, 6 INTS, rating 105.4
JJ McCarthy vs Top 25 defenses, 85-140 (60.7%), 1,114 yards (8.0 YPA), 6 TDs, 3 INTs, rating 137.4
By the time the 2024 draft rolls around, I believe Caleb Williams will not be the #1 pick. Maybe 3rd QB off the board.
Year over year, I think McCarthy has developed the most. His football IQ and processing during a play are good. I want to watch his accuracy on long throws in tight coverage as I want to see him get more air under those throws as opposed to ropes.
I have Daniels and McCarthy tied for 3rd. I would stay away from Nix and Penix is a major healthy risk. I would trade up whatever I have to in order to take Drake Maye.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 31, 2023, 12:58:36 PMBy the time the 2024 draft rolls around, I believe Caleb Williams will not be the #1 pick. Maybe 3rd QB off the board.
Year over year, I think McCarthy has developed the most. His football IQ and processing during a play are good. I want to watch his accuracy on long throws in tight coverage as I want to see him get more air under those throws as opposed to ropes.
I would take that bet. I think Caleb Williams is clearly at the head of this class. Nothing is guaranteed of course, he could be a bust just like anybody else, but from what I've seen and what others around the league are saying, he's going to be the #1 pick right or wrong.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 31, 2023, 01:23:05 PMI would take that bet. I think Caleb Williams is clearly at the head of this class. Nothing is guaranteed of course, he could be a bust just like anybody else, but from what I've seen and what others around the league are saying, he's going to be the #1 pick right or wrong.
Don't get me wrong. I love his physical talents. Against top competition he has not been great and I think that is more due to mental side of game. That is my question on him and why he may not be #1 pick.
I can't speak for several of these QB's yet but Calib Williams IMO has a lot of potential at the next level but I haven't seen enough film yet. I'm lukewarm on MC and Maye so far with more film to watch. Any draft pick would have to be better than DJ if he were in the right system and he's not. Pat Shurmur knew. As it turned out the 2019 draft class was one of the worst in NFL history and DJ was the best of the bunch. I had him rated along with Will Grier and Ryan Finley. I also believe that if Finley and Grier were drafted by the Giants they too would have lasted at least 4 years here too.
Rosen, Mayfield and Darnold were all touted to be better than Allen and Jackson. We know how that turned out.
Everyone labeled Richardson a bust and unfortunately for him, he was drafted by a bust team.
There are so many factors that need to be evaluated in an NFL QB, from character, to Arm, to leadership, to intelligence, accuracy, pocket presence and awareness, ability to move within the pocket and athleticism, and intestinal fortitude and resilience, but the number one is Football IQ and the ability to read the field, coverages and his progressions and have a quick release to the best option available. Tom Brady was in my opinion the greatest QB of all time and he didn't have the greatest arm but it was good enough, and he wasn't the best leader and he didn't have great athleticism but he knew where the ball was going 95% of the time before it was snapped and he hit his man with the right touch and accuracy.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2023, 01:41:11 PMEveryone labeled Richardson a bust and unfortunately for him, he was drafted by a bust team.
Anthony Richardson?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 31, 2023, 12:49:30 AMAnd with the 6th over all pick........we take the QB from Duke
brownE: I had a nightmare about that very scenario last night.
My "best case" is Giants get Marvin Harrison, Jr., this year and QB Drew Allar (Penn State) next year.
Allar (a sophomore) is performing very very well this yr and he will kick Ohio State's AND Michigan's asses next yr. He'll be ready to play for the Giants the year after that, when Jones' contract ends.
Bob
I've done hours of tape and research on this class watching almost all of the top guys games. As it translate to the NFL I think the class is upside down in a lot of ways but super deep.
Williams and Maye have everything you look for in a prototype qb physically but mentally there's something missing for both. Williams while carrying USCs pedestrian team doesn't care about the right things and Is only a killer sometimes. Maye can't get his guys up for bad teams, losing to teams with 1 and 2 wins back to back when they were in a playoff hunt, he's quiet, and not cerebral.
JJ mccarthy is a killer, he's cerebral, can make all the throws, manipulate not only the defense in a pro offense but manipulate the pocket a will and Is athletic enough to make plays happen. He is quickly becoming my QB 1 because of his mental makeup and what he brings physically. If you had Mccarthy and Jaxson Darts mental makeup inside Williams, Maye, and Ewers you'd have generational talents but Williams and maye are lacking were it counts the most imo.
JJ's fo
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 31, 2023, 02:44:00 PMI've done hours of tape and research on this class watching almost all of the top guys games. As it translate to the NFL I think the class is upside down in a lot of ways but super deep.
Williams and Maye have everything you look for in prototype qb physically but mentally there's something missing for both. Williams while carrying USCs pedestrian team doesn't care about the right things and Is only a killer sometimes. Maye can't get his guys up for bad teams, losing to teams with 1 and 2 wins back to back when they were in a playoff hunt, he's quiet, and not cerebral.
JJ mccarthy is a killer, he's cerebral, can make all the throws, manipulate not only the defense in a pro offense but manipulate the pocket a will and IA athletic enough to make plays happen. He is quickly becoming my QB 1 because of his mental makeup and what he brings physically. If you had Mccarthy and Jacson Darts mental makeup inside Williams, Maye, and Ewers you'd have generational talents but Williams and maye are lacking were it counts the most imo.
I think JJ's football brain is more developed than either Williams or Maye. That is from better coaching and frankly his maturity and coachabikity. He was a good hockey player growing up. Kid is tough and also a natural leader.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 31, 2023, 02:51:29 PMJJ's fo
I think JJ's football brain is more developed than either Williams or Maye. That is from better coaching and frankly his maturity and coachabikity. He was a good hockey player growing up. Kid is tough and also a natural leader.
All of those are good traits, but I want our next QB to have legit talent and be a sharp processor (both pre and post snap) who makes the right decision the vast majority of the time and can execute seamlessly. Just being tough, coachable, and having a good makeup is nice but that alone is not enough. We have that now with Jones, and we have simply not moved forward as a franchise with him.
BTW I'm in no way saying JJ isn't all of the above things that I said I want in our next QB. I honestly don't know yet. I am just noting that the traits you mentioned, while important, to me are not enough by themselves. I'm not implying you think they are either - I am just noting where I stand.
I have not watched enough of JJ to have a very strong opinion yet. I don't really count games against subpar teams. I want to see how he looks in PSU, against OSU, and then in the Big 10 Champ game and the playoffs (assuming Mich plays those games). I will have a firmer opinion then.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 31, 2023, 12:58:36 PMBy the time the 2024 draft rolls around, I believe Caleb Williams will not be the #1 pick. Maybe 3rd QB off the board.
Year over year, I think McCarthy has developed the most. His football IQ and processing during a play are good. I want to watch his accuracy on long throws in tight coverage as I want to see him get more air under those throws as opposed to ropes.
i am more impressed with him than caleb, though calebs game is more electric. that doesnt necessarily mean he's better.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 31, 2023, 03:18:49 PMAll of those are good traits, but I want our next QB to have legit talent and be a sharp processor (both pre and post snap) who makes the right decision the vast majority of the time and can execute seamlessly. Just being tough, coachable, and having a good makeup is nice but that alone is not enough. We have that now with Jones, and we have simply not moved forward as a franchise with him.
BTW I'm in no way saying JJ isn't all of the above things that I said I want in our next QB. I honestly don't know yet. I am just noting that the traits you mentioned, while important, to me are not enough by themselves. I'm not implying you think they are either - I am just noting where I stand.
I have not watched enough of JJ to have a very strong opinion yet. I don't really count games against subpar teams. I want to see how he looks in PSU, against OSU, and then in the Big 10 Champ game and the playoffs (assuming Mich plays those games). I will have a firmer opinion then.
JJ vs DJ is no comparison. JJ is much more aggressive looking downfield and taking shots. Not a quiet leader either but vocal.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 31, 2023, 02:44:00 PMJJ mccarthy is a killer, he's cerebral, can make all the throws, manipulate not only the defense in a pro offense but manipulate the pocket a will and IA athletic enough to make plays happen.
J: I want to believe you but have seen all his games and I'm still not convinced.
In my mind he's competing with WR Marvin Harrison, Jr., so he's has a very very steep uphill climb to become my favorite player in this draft.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 04:29:57 PMJ: I want to believe you but have seen all his games and I'm still not convinced.
In my mind he's competing with WR Marvin Harrison, Jr., so he's has a very very steep uphill climb to become my favorite player in this draft.
The Mara family, on the other hand, will probably collectively pee their pants if Schoen drafts the Notre Dame QB.
Bob
PS. That reminds me - I like to imagine the Mara's are still kicking themselves over the 1979 draft. I want to believe (with NO supporting evidence at all) that if they hadn't gotten their preferred choice for QB (Phil Simms) in the 1st round (to cat-calls of "WHO" from the peanut gallery) they would have CERTAINLY (lol) kept their 3rd-rounder (instead of trading it to the Dolphins) and drafted a Notre Dame QB (whose last name is the same as one of the western United States).
Bob - keep in mind that Michigen's offense is a power run game with 50-50 passing. It's not a more pass oriented offense plus he gets pulled in the 3rd quarter.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 31, 2023, 12:47:33 AMAs of now this is the order per PFF, Oct 30 2023
1. QB CALEB WILLIAMS, USC
2. QB DRAKE MAYE, NORTH CAROLINA
3. QB BO NIX, OREGON
4. QB MICHAEL PENIX JR., WASHINGTON
5. QB RILEY LEONARD, DUKE
6. QB J.J. MCCARTHY, MICHIGAN
7. QB SHEDEUR SANDERS, COLORADO
8. QB MICHAEL PRATT, TULANE
9. QB JAYDEN DANIELS, LSU
10. QB QUINN EWERS, TEXAS
Of course its still early and the ranking will change. Who do you like? Who do you think will be there when we pick?
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-position-rankings-quarterbacks
I'll caveat my rankings by saying I'm not a fan of any of these guys and hope the Giants pass on drafting a QB this year. I understand the desire from some to move on from DJ ASAP, but it can't come at the expense of reaching on a sub-par talent.
1a. Williams
1b. Maye
3. McCarthy
4. Nix
5. Penix
6. Ewers
7. Daniels
8. Leonard
9. Pratt
10. Sanders
Quote from: Philosophers on October 31, 2023, 04:45:12 PMBob - keep in mind that Michigen's offense is a power run game with 50-50 passing. It's not a more pass oriented offense plus he gets pulled in the 3rd quarter.
Phil: A great point, worth serious consideration.
Anyone certainly could view the information in your post as demonstrating that the head coach is holding him back or choking off his opportunity to show what a great NFL QB he'll be. It's possible that's true, but right now I'm not convinced, just like with Caleb Williams and nearly every other college QB who's likely to come out for the 2024 draft.
I don't see an electric QB in this draft. I'm looking for something like Elway and Peyton did in college. But the season is only half over, so there's plenty of time. I'm just making the point that as of today I'd take Marvin Harrison, Jr.
Bob
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 31, 2023, 04:54:27 PMI'll caveat my rankings by saying I'm not a fan of any of these guys and hope the Giants pass on drafting a QB this year.
Stringer: Me and you both. Out of curiosity, have you seen Drew Allar (Penn State) play. He's a sophomore and could come out for the 2025 draft (no chance this year) but even as a freshman he demonstrated an ability to "hang with the big boys" and believe with the same pace of development this and next season as he's already on, he'll be a sure first round pick (for the Giants, maybe... lets see how things play out). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 05:08:48 PMStringer: Me and you both. Out of curiosity, have you seen Drew Allar (Penn State) play. He's a sophomore and could come out for the 2025 draft (no chance this year) but even as a freshman he demonstrated an ability to "hang with the big boys" and believe with the same pace of development this and next season as he's already on, he'll be a sure first round pick (for the Giants, maybe... lets see how things play out). Bob
Bob, I have seen Allar and like his upside and makeup. I would rank him right now as #4 on that list. With a strong junior year, I would go for him over McCarthy. And with a big jump in performance, he could fast be on the level with Williams and Maye.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 31, 2023, 05:05:52 PMPhil: A great point, worth serious consideration.
Anyone certainly could view the information in your post as demonstrating that the head coach is holding him back or choking off his opportunity to show what a great NFL QB he'll be. It's possible that's true, but right now I'm not convinced, just like with Caleb Williams and nearly every other college QB who's likely to come out for the 2024 draft.
I don't see an electric QB in this draft. I'm looking for something like Elway and Peyton did in college. But the season is only half over, so there's plenty of time. I'm just making the point that as of today I'd take Marvin Harrison, Jr.
Bob
I'm a big Marvin Harrison fan too.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 31, 2023, 05:12:13 PMBob, I have seen Allar and like his upside and makeup. I would rank him right now as #4 on that list. With a strong junior year, I would go for him over McCarthy. And with a big jump in performance, he could fast be on the level with Williams and Maye.
Currently they have as the #1 QB in the 2025 draft
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 31, 2023, 05:12:13 PMBob, I have seen Allar and like his upside and makeup. I would rank him right now as #4 on that list. With a strong junior year, I would go for him over McCarthy. And with a big jump in performance, he could fast be on the level with Williams and Maye.
Allar did not impress me against Ohio St. He was 18-42 for 191 yards. I think McCarthy will light up OSU.
https://www.giants.com/video/draft-season-tony-s-top-10
A clip from early in the season wherein the top 10 offensive players are discussed. Pauline has 3 QBs among the 10. First two are obvious but his #3 surprised me
I keep hearing this QB class is an all-timer and I desperately want it to be, but I'm just not seeing it.
You've got guys saying Caleb Williams is the best prospect since Luck. Based on what? He's a better prospect than Trevor Lawrence and Herbert, for example? Burrow? He wants ownership stake or he'll collect NIL money? Talk about an over-inflated d-bag. He'd play 5 games here and get sacked 30 times and NY would eat this clown alive. Maye is intriguing, Penix is interesting but there are guys like this virtually every year.
The hype (or the extreme negative reactions like we saw with Jones) have no place with this fan.
Riley Leonard is a Junior at Duke and there is no indication that he will come out this year.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 31, 2023, 06:43:26 AMI don't care what Riley Leonard does on the field. I don't care what he does at the combine. I don't care what he scores on the wonderlic or whatever test they use now is. If they draft another QB from duke I'm going to lose it. Let him be great elsewhere because if he came to the Giants he'd suck out loud.
I also think as of now I'd have McCarthy 3rd over Bo Nix mainly because Nix is old. So is Penix. But I think skills wise they're all in the same tier. McCarthy just has more potential to become better by virtue of being 3 years younger than those other two. However if Daboll fell in full bloom love with Nix or Penix I wouldn't be upset.
Just please don't take Riley. I'm begging you.
Riley Leonard is a junior at Duke and there is not any indication that he is ready to enter the 2024 draft
Quote from: Philosophers on October 31, 2023, 12:58:36 PMBy the time the 2024 draft rolls around, I believe Caleb Williams will not be the #1 pick. Maybe 3rd QB off the board.
Year over year, I think McCarthy has developed the most. His football IQ and processing during a play are good. I want to watch his accuracy on long throws in tight coverage as I want to see him get more air under those throws as opposed to ropes.
Whats your take on Bo Nix?
The two QBs in the Washington/USC game looking impressive. Especially how they both extend the plays by their scrambling. Schoen is at the game.
Quote from: katkavage on November 04, 2023, 09:59:24 PMThe two QBs in the Washington/USC game looking impressive. Especially how they both extend the plays by their scrambling. Schoen is at the game.
Hope he isn't scouting defense.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 04, 2023, 06:30:24 PMWhats your take on Bo Nix?
I think he started college during the dial up internet era.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 04, 2023, 10:37:38 PMHope he isn't scouting defense.
I think he started college during the dial up internet era.
Jesus. He's a fifth year senior just like my son and my son is now where near being too old. For decades most quarterbacks spent four or five years in college learning their craft before entering the draft. He's 23 and playing in an era where the good ones last into their late 30's. Why people bring up his age is baffling to me.
Quote from: madbadger on November 04, 2023, 11:33:34 PMJesus. He's a fifth year senior just like my son and my son is now where near being too old. For decades most quarterbacks spent four or five years in college learning their craft before entering the draft. He's 23 and playing in an era where the good ones last into their late 30's. Why people bring up his age is baffling to me.
The age is only brought up because the NFL likes to draft guys young and develop them but by the time a guy like Nix or penix get drafted they've likely peaked physically. Both will be 24 before they take a snap in the NFL.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 05, 2023, 12:24:41 AMThe age is only brought up because the NFL likes to draft guys young and develop them but by the time a guy like Nix or penix get drafted they've likely peaked physically. Both will be 24 before they take a snap in the NFL.
The NFL, by and large, has done a lousy job developing quarterbacks the last 10-15 years. I don't remember as many grotesque busts back in the 80's-90's as we do now. Give me a 22/23 year old Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning over a 20 year old Kyler Murray.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 04, 2023, 06:30:24 PMWhats your take on Bo Nix?
Bo Nix has really come on strong the past 5-6 games. He was not even in the same sentence with Caleb Williams and Michael Penix but now he is. Even in their loss to Washington 36-33, he put up big numbers.
That said, I dont like him the way I liked Justin Herbert when he was at Oregon. Pac 12 defenses continue to be non-existent. I would put him in the 2nd or 3rd tier of QB prospects this year.
He's been playing in college forever yet JJ McCarthy in one has developed more than Nix has in his career in terms of QB decision-making skills.
Quote from: madbadger on November 04, 2023, 11:33:34 PMJesus. He's a fifth year senior just like my son and my son is now where near being too old. For decades most quarterbacks spent four or five years in college learning their craft before entering the draft. He's 23 and playing in an era where the good ones last into their late 30's. Why people bring up his age is baffling to me.
Was really just making a joke because it seems like he has been around for a long time. That's mostly due to him being a 5 year starter, which is unusual. Usually 5th year players tend to have been injured a season or not played a lot in a season for whatever reason. Nix is a rare case of a QB with 5 full years of starting. Sorry the joke missed and upset you.
I personally think it's perfectly reasonable to incorporate how many years of college experience a QB has had into one's analysis/expectations. There is a difference to me between a 19 year old sophomore and a 23 year old 5th year starter (or 24 year old 6th year starter who turns 25 this summer, ie Sam Hartman on ND).
It's not an insult or anything, nor does it mean the older player won't be good at the next level if he makes it. Nor does it mean the younger player will. But I don't think it's something you just gloss right over and treat as a complete non-discussion point. I think it's perfectly reasonable for it to be part of the analysis. Experience matters. Otherwise why play college football at all?
It's alarming how Calib comes up small in big situations. He's the most talented QB in many years but last night he had a chance to at least come within a FG but busted. Can't keep blaming the supporting cast. Sound familiar?
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 05, 2023, 09:36:00 AMIt's alarming how Calib comes up small in big situations. He's the most talented QB in many years but last night he had a chance to at least come within a FG but busted. Can't keep blaming the supporting cast. Sound familiar?
Ed: In the right system (and right coach) he'll have a shot, because he has at least NFL minimum requirements.
IMO all 1st-round NFL QB's have them. Anyone who does not believe that should re-examine their views.
What really matters is how they adapt to the fact that in the NFL, EVERY game is against elite players, and how they are able to mature, both physically and mentally as their careers progress.
That's what makes the draft a crap shoot. Some adapt and flourish, but more never do. Of the few who do, some find even more ways to give themselves a tiny edge, whether through ultra-superior innate talent, mental attitude, having TRUE understanding of the intricacies of the game, or intangible factors.
But it's still a 53-man game... if you don't come to a solid team with a coaching staff that puts you in a good situation, then you have even more adapting to do. Precious few QB's overcome an additional burden being added to an already-difficult task. The converse is also true... a few guys find themselves in good circumstances (good team, good coach) and still can't make the adjustment from college to pro.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 05, 2023, 09:36:00 AMIt's alarming how Calib comes up small in big situations. He's the most talented QB in many years but last night he had a chance to at least come within a FG but busted. Can't keep blaming the supporting cast. Sound familiar?
I agree, super talented but the mental makeup is missing for me at least. It's why I am sold on Mccarthy over Maye and Williams.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 05, 2023, 10:50:13 AMI agree, super talented but the mental makeup is missing for me at least. It's why I am sold on Mccarthy over Maye and Williams.
J: Next weekend (assuming the game is national) you'll get to see and compare McCarthy with the guy I'm eyeing for 2025, Drew Allar of Penn State. I know you like other WR's too but right now I'd pick Harrison, Jr., in 2024 and Allar in 2025. Both events obviously are a long time off, so we'll see if things change, but IMO they would be a truly elite NFL combo. Bob
Mccarthy is the guy for me. And I hope the Giants see it the same.
Go get him
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Quote from: Just_jimmy on November 05, 2023, 11:05:46 AMMccarthy is the guy for me. And I hope the Giants see it the same. Go get him
Jimmy: Let's see how he does against Penn State and Ohio State first.
Both have good defenses that will put him under big-time pressure which IMO he hasn't yet had to deal with.
By the way, if I told you Giants would not pick a QB in 2024 because they don't like any of them enough to spend a high 1st-rounder, which college player would you want instead, using just the info you have today (or which position should their 1st-round pick play)?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 05, 2023, 11:16:41 AMJimmy: Let's see how he does against Penn State and Ohio State first.
Both have good defenses that will put him under big-time pressure which IMO he hasn't yet had to deal with.
Bob
Yep, we'll see how he does with a ton of pressure in his face next week. Should be a good indicator of what he'd look like in Giants blue. =))
Quote from: PSUBeirut on November 05, 2023, 12:00:27 PMYep, we'll see how he does with a ton of pressure in his face next week. Should be a good indicator of what he'd look like in Giants blue. =))
PSU: Franklin finally unleashed Allar. Let's see if he's ready to beat a pro-caliber team playing at home.
Assuming his development continues at the current rate, IMO Giants should wait until he comes out (2025).
Meanwhile taking Harrison, Jr. (or equivalent elite WR) should get the O ready for what IMO Allar will have to offer.
Bob
Michigan's weakest part of their team are their offensive tackles. Interior OL is outstanding. Edge pressure should be good test along with good CB play from Penn State.
That said, his completion percentage outside the pocket is 92% this year. Now is scrambles to throw whereas before he scrambled to run.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 05, 2023, 12:29:47 PMPSU: Franklin finally unleashed Allar. Let's see if he's ready to beat a pro-caliber team playing at home.
Assuming his development continues at the current rate, IMO Giants should wait until he comes out (2025).
Meanwhile taking Harrison, Jr. (or equivalent elite WR) should get the O ready for what IMO Allar will have to offer.
Bob
I'm liking what I'm seeing of Allar so far but definitely need to see more accuracy on mid to long range throws before I'm sold as an NFL franchise QB. He's got a lot of tools to work with in his game, but I've yet to see him really carry a team on his back in a big game. Of course, the great tragedy is he's got nowhere NEAR the WRs that OSU has to offer...if I were Franklin I'd make that job #1 for next year.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on November 05, 2023, 12:52:38 PMI'm liking what I'm seeing of Allar so far but definitely need to see more accuracy on mid to long range throws before I'm sold as an NFL franchise QB. He's got a lot of tools to work with in his game, but I've yet to see him really carry a team on his back in a big game. Of course, the great tragedy is he's got nowhere NEAR the WRs that OSU has to offer...if I were Franklin I'd make that job #1 for next year.
PSU: My view/hope: the rest of this season (starting next week) will establish him as having high first-round potential.
Whether I'll think he's worth a high 1st-rounder in 2025 is clearly not possible now, but I can see it happening.
It all starts next weekend, after which he'll be on the major-league radar or his weak spots will be exposed.
His "chest pass" throw yesterday to the TE while being tackled near the end-zone was IMO Patrick Mahomes stuff.
It had the presence of mind that sets elite NFL QB's apart from good ones. We'll see if it continues. He tries to incorporate into the game the various aspects of brilliance displayed by the NFL's elite (i.e., he's a student of the game). IMO, it's all there right before him.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 05, 2023, 09:36:00 AMIt's alarming how Calib comes up small in big situations. He's the most talented QB in many years but last night he had a chance to at least come within a FG but busted. Can't keep blaming the supporting cast. Sound familiar?
How many points did USC score yesterday. He accounted for 300 yards passing and four touchdowns with no turnovers. Is he supposed to play defense too?
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 05, 2023, 11:16:41 AMJimmy: Let's see how he does against Penn State and Ohio State first.
Both have good defenses that will put him under big-time pressure which IMO he hasn't yet had to deal with.
By the way, if I told you Giants would not pick a QB in 2024 because they don't like any of them enough to spend a high 1st-rounder, which college player would you want instead, using just the info you have today (or which position should their 1st-round pick play)?
Bob
Truthfully, if we're in a slot to get one, I'd be disappointed if we didn't go QB. It's fine saying wait til next year but who guarantees we're in a position to get one then?
I guess, maybe, a WR if we got someone elite. Hard to be too excited by it when Jones is still stinking it up however.
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I'd draft a Qb every year until you get one. Nothing else really matters, you won't go anywhere without one.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 05, 2023, 05:22:13 PMI'd draft a Qb every year until you get one. Nothing else really matters, you won't go anywhere without one.
That's essentially how I feel too. The best otherwise is game manager stuff and you're not winning with that when it counts.
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14-0 with DeVito in. That could be insurmountable.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 05, 2023, 05:22:13 PMI'd draft a Qb every year until you get one. Nothing else really matters, you won't go anywhere without one.
Totally agree with this. I think you'll see more and more teams start to operate this way. Getting fixated on one guy and watching him suck for 4.5 years is just not a good model.
Caleb has to score 50 in most games to be competitive. Some of the stuff I see people write about here seems nuts to me. He's an elite prospect.
Why isn't Penix the #1 prospect? Serious question. Only seen him a couple of times and both times were impressive. The physical talent is apparent.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 05, 2023, 07:29:04 PMCaleb has to score 50 in most games to be competitive. Some of the stuff I see people write about here seems nuts to me. He's an elite prospect.
I think we've possibly won too many games to get him anyway.
Quote from: AYM on November 05, 2023, 07:44:34 PMI think we've possibly won too many games to get him anyway.
I don't think we win another. I think the teams ahead of us will. So who knows. I think we'll be bad enough to at least get Drake Maye.
We have such a weird fan base. Caleb Williams does nothing for most people and we're like the only fanbase who feels this way. I don't understand the "Caleb Williams sucks" by the fanbase yet always more impressed y Daniel Jones for some reason.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on November 05, 2023, 07:52:11 PMWe have such a weird fan base. Caleb Williams does nothing for most people and we're like the only fanbase who feels this way. I don't understand the "Caleb Williams sucks" by the fanbase yet always more impressed y Daniel Jones for some reason.
Because Giants have low standards from the past decade of watching mediocrity. Not enough of us watch other games it seems where 3rd string QBs have no issues slinging the ball.
Some on this site love DeVito, thought he was better than Tyrod and don't like Caleb Williams. One reason jumps right out at me. Hope I'm wrong about that reason.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on November 05, 2023, 07:52:11 PMWe have such a weird fan base. Caleb Williams does nothing for most people and we're like the only fanbase who feels this way. I don't understand the "Caleb Williams sucks" by the fanbase yet always more impressed y Daniel Jones for some reason.
The same guys saying Caleb Williams sucks are the same ones who said CJ Stroud sucks last year and he's absolutely killing it this year. In fact he might end up having the best year any rookie quarterback ever has.
Quote from: madbadger on November 05, 2023, 08:38:20 PMThe same guys saying Caleb Williams sucks are the same ones who said CJ Stroud sucks last year and he's absolutely killing it this year. In fact he might end up having the best year any rookie quarterback ever has.
And now it's, "Oh the Texans actually have a good OL and WRs." No. Not really. CJ Stroud is just elevating that roster. We have QB play that makes everyone else look like scrubs. Impossible to evaluate talent when there's no pocket presence and an inability to throw the ball beyond 5 yards.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on November 05, 2023, 07:52:11 PMWe have such a weird fan base. Caleb Williams does nothing for most people and we're like the only fanbase who feels this way. I don't understand the "Caleb Williams sucks" by the fanbase yet always more impressed y Daniel Jones for some reason.
spinner: He doesn't suck. He is coming up "small" in big games and hasn't beaten a really good team this year. Bob
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 05, 2023, 05:22:13 PMI'd draft a Qb every year until you get one. Nothing else really matters, you won't go anywhere without one.
There is precedent for doing that. The Cards drafted Josh Rosen and Kyler Murray in the first round in back to back years and the Cowboys drafted Troy Aidan first overall and then a couple months later drafted Steve Walsh in the first round of the supplemental draft.
The position is too important in the modern NFL. You simply can't win with a game manager like the Ravens did 23 years or so ago with Trent Dilfer.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 05, 2023, 07:29:04 PMCaleb has to score 50 in most games to be competitive. Some of the stuff I see people write about here seems nuts to me. He's an elite prospect.
Dgood: So were hundreds of other QB's who fizzed out in the NFL. A QB needs the right situation in which to excel.
Quote from: madbadger on November 05, 2023, 08:38:20 PMThe same guys saying Caleb Williams sucks are the same ones who said CJ Stroud sucks last year and he's absolutely killing it this year. In fact he might end up having the best year any rookie quarterback ever has.
Not seeing anyone say Caleb sucks. No one at all.
I said he comes up small in big games, which he absolutely does. Others have said his mental makeup isn't ideal, which it's not.
Valid criticisms don't equate to saying someone sucks.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 05, 2023, 08:52:07 PMDgood: So were hundreds of other QB's who fizzed out in the NFL. A QB needs the right situation in which to excel.
I'm watching one now on Sunday Night Football whose presence changed a moribund franchise. He made a bad situation so much better. Some have that kind of talent. .
Quote from: Stringer Bell on November 05, 2023, 08:55:56 PMNot seeing anyone say Caleb sucks. No one at all.
I said he comes up small in big games, which he absolutely does. Others have said his mental makeup isn't ideal, which it's not.
Valid criticisms don't equate to saying someone sucks.
I understand what you are saying. How many games did Danny Jones come up big for Duke before the Giants made him a high first round pick?
Caleb played a great game last night. He made throws that Jones can only dream of. But he doesn't play defense, so he came up small. Some of what I read here is amazing.
Quote from: katkavage on November 05, 2023, 09:00:07 PMI understand what you are saying. How many games did Danny Jones come up big for Duke before the Giants made him a high first round pick?
I love how every conversation - no matter the topic - becomes a "drag DJ" contest.
Just for a little perspective Peyton Manning was 2-6 at Tennessee against top 10 teams and the year after he left they won the National Championship. The knock on him was that he didn't win the big games.
If we get a quarterback in this upcoming draft that has a career anything close to Peyton's every last poster here would have an ear to ear grin for the next 15 years.
Every top prospect gets nit picked. I suppose that it makes sense as no one can stomach drafting a bust in the top two or three but there are guys that are just different.
Quote from: madbadger on November 05, 2023, 10:25:37 PMJust for a little perspective Peyton Manning was 2-6 at Tennessee against top 10 teams and the year after he left they won the National Championship. The knock on him was that he didn't win the big games.
100% right. I want to see traits more than read about stats.
If we get a quarterback in this upcoming draft that has a career anything close to Peyton's every last poster here would have an ear to ear grin for the next 15 years.
Every top prospect gets nit picked. I suppose that it makes sense as no one can stomach drafting a bust in the top two or three but there are guys that are just different.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on November 05, 2023, 09:57:17 PMI love how every conversation - no matter the topic - becomes a "drag DJ" contest.
No, the point I was making is that your "drag Caleb" contest has nothing to do with how he will be drafted in the upcoming draft. It has nothing to do with his potential as a NFL QB. See Badgers post about Peyton Manning.
Quote from: katkavage on November 06, 2023, 02:56:13 AMNo, the point I was making is that your "drag Caleb" contest has nothing to do with how he will be drafted in the upcoming draft. It has nothing to do with his potential as a NFL QB. See Badgers post about Peyton Manning.
kat: You're completely right, but IMO he is not showing the qualities we want to see right now, and has not looked like he looked last year. If nothing else, it could be cited as proof that most QB's need a decent team around them to develop and eventually play well. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 08:05:04 AMkat: You're completely right, but IMO he is not showing the qualities we want to see right now, and has not looked like he looked last year. If nothing else, it could be cited as proof that most QB's need a decent team around them to develop and eventually play well. Bob
Nope. You take them when you get the chance. You can't wait for the decent team. Phil Simms played several years before the teams were decent he played for. The Bengals weren't very decent when they drafted Burrow. Nor the Jaguars when they took Lawrence. Do that and it will never happen.
Quote from: katkavage on November 06, 2023, 09:39:08 AMNope. You take them when you get the chance. You can't wait for the decent team. Phil Simms played several years before the teams were decent he played for. The Bengals weren't very decent when they drafted Burrow. Nor the Jaguars when they took Lawrence. Do that and it will never happen.
kat: I think that's 20th century thinking, and this is the 21st century. The game HAS changed, IMO. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 09:58:11 AMkat: I think that's 20th century thinking, and this is the 21st century. The game HAS changed, IMO. Bob
But Mara hasn't and still thinks the game is the same as it was in the 20th century.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 09:58:11 AMkat: I think that's 20th century thinking, and this is the 21st century. The game HAS changed, IMO. Bob
That's why you take the QB. As all teams do now. Not even a debate.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 06, 2023, 10:02:23 AMBut Mara hasn't and still thinks the game is the same as it was in the 20th century.
TD: I really want to tell you that you're wrong, but all I can say right now is let's hope you're wrong. Bob
Quote from: TDToomer on November 06, 2023, 10:02:23 AMBut Mara hasn't and still thinks the game is the same as it was in the 20th century.
That is the issue. He is dragging the franchise down.
Quote from: katkavage on November 06, 2023, 10:09:02 AMThat's why you take the QB. As all teams do now. Not even a debate.
kat: I know where you're coming from, but financially you cannot afford to let your guy sit for more than a few games. You want to win under his rookie contract. Adding these factors into the equation, what you get IMO is almost a rule that you don't take a big-money high-1st-rounder until you have a decent OL and at least one starter-quality WR (doesn't have to be a #1 bell-cow... just a true starter... IMO Hyatt fits the bill, so Giants are ok there... they still need two more OL's and can get them this next draft then draft a QB in 2025. I know the DJ injury complicates that scenario now because we're not sure he'll be ready to play next year, but it's worth the risk. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of the Jones situation with the next QB. I want him to step in without fear of getting killed while he's gathering on-field experience. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 10:14:12 AMkat: I know where you're coming from, but financially you cannot afford to let your guy sit for more than a few games. You want to win under his rookie contract. Adding these factors into the equation, what you get IMO is almost a rule that you don't take a big-money high-1st-rounder until you have a decent OL and at least one starter-quality WR (doesn't have to be a #1 bell-cow... just a true starter... IMO Hyatt fits the bill, so Giants are ok there... they still need two more OL's and can get them this next draft then draft a QB in 2025. I know the DJ injury complicates that scenario now because we're not sure he'll be ready to play next year, but it's worth the risk. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of the Jones situation with the next QB. I want him to step in without fear of getting killed while he's gathering on-field experience. Bob
Bob, they will draft a QB.
Quote from: katkavage on November 06, 2023, 10:15:15 AMBob, they will draft a QB.
kat: I'm certain of that, but suppose there's no one THEY view as a franchise guy. Would you draft in the later rounds if you don't see a first-rounder? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 10:21:58 AMkat: I'm certain of that, but suppose there's no one THEY view as a franchise guy. Would you draft in the later rounds if you don't see a first-rounder? Bob
I hope they don't reach like Gettleman did for Jones. No, don't take a QB just because. I've been saying this for the last ten years: when you bring a new regime let them pick the QB in year one if possible. Schoen wants to find his guy. Gettleman tried in year two but whiffed. If they need to trade future draft picks for their guy, they should.
Quote from: katkavage on November 06, 2023, 10:27:13 AMI hope they don't reach like Gettleman did for Jones. No, don't take a QB just because. I've been saying this for the last ten years: when you bring a new regime let them pick the QB in year one if possible. Schoen wants to find his guy. Gettleman tried in year two but whiffed. If they need to trade future draft picks for their guy, they should.
There are at least 4 QBs in this draft that would have graded out better than Jones did his year. Gettleman was a buffoon and took Jones for no good reason other than apparently he was full bloom in love with the guy. A real GM, like the one the Giants currently employ, will look at the options, talk to his coach, and decide which one is the best fit for the offense they are running. I believe Williams will be the runaway winner but if Daboll sees something in one of the other guys that makes him believe that they would be better in his offense I'll trust him on that. But rest assured, nobody they draft at the top will be as ridiculous of a reach as Jones was.
Many fans seem to be overanalyzing players or prospects in my opinion and drawing conclusions from only a few plays or a few games. It's about an entire body of work.
Caleb Williams or any prospect will have a bad or great game. Neither defines him or his game.
Example: JJ McCarthy will play Penn State next week. He may light them up or have a crap game. Neither will define him as a QB but he will either be elevated or thrown to the junk pile by fans here after that game. I guarantee it.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 05, 2023, 07:32:16 PMWhy isn't Penix the #1 prospect? Serious question. Only seen him a couple of times and both times were impressive. The physical talent is apparent.
Asking again. The conversation had somehow turned to Gettleman and Jones rather than the prospects. What are thoughts on Penix?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 10:44:56 AMAsking again. The conversation had somehow turned to Gettleman and Jones rather than the prospects. What are thoughts on Penix?
Looks good. Will be 25 next year.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 10:44:56 AMAsking again. The conversation had somehow turned to Gettleman and Jones rather than the prospects. What are thoughts on Penix?
Penix also has had 2 ACL knee reconstructions plus has an average arm.
If we are drafting a franchise QB in the top 5 I want him to be 21-23 years old. 25? forget about it.
All I want is for Schoen to identify the guy he can win with and go get him. No settling for what you think is the second or third best QB because your first choice was out of reach. Bet the ranch, trade the picks, promise your first born just go get the best guy.
This is what happened in Buffalo when they got Allen. They got lucky in that the perception of Allen was he was a "flawed" prospect but the Buffalo brain trust was sure about him and they did what it took to get in position to draft him.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 06, 2023, 11:23:34 AMPenix also has had 2 ACL knee reconstructions plus has an average arm.
Did not know about the ACLs. Thought his arm looked better than average, but that could easily be my untrained eye.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 10:44:56 AMAsking again. The conversation had somehow turned to Gettleman and Jones rather than the prospects. What are thoughts on Penix?
2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 his first 4 years of college his season was cut short due to injury. He's now in year 6 but out of the 6 seasons he's only been healthy for 1 1/2 of those.
Figure out a way to draft Caleb Williams, QB position set for a long time.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 06, 2023, 12:05:51 PM2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 his first 4 years of college his season was cut short due to injury. He's now in year 6 but out of the 6 seasons he's only been healthy for 1 1/2 of those.
Absolute 100% hard pass. It also baffles me how college fans fall head of heals on a guy and crown him the next best thing. How is Stetson Bennett doing with the Rams? Mac Jones may not see contract #2.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 06, 2023, 01:40:17 PMAbsolute 100% hard pass. It also baffles me how college fans fall head of heals on a guy and crown him the next best thing. How is Stetson Bennett doing with the Rams? Mac Jones may not see contract #2.
I don't know that many thought Bennett or Jones were going to be great. Imo there's a big difference in a great college Qb and great NFL Qb. The two are not always mutually exclusive.
No one thought Jones and Bennett were going to be great. Most people didn't think Bennett would even get drafted. Mac Jones was always thought of a borderline prospect. These guys aren't even in the same area code as the top prospects in this draft.
Buy these QBs:
Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Sell:
Any other Pac 12 QB.
Riley Leonard
Spencer rattler
Dillon Gabriel
Interesting late rounder I have my eye on-
Michael Pratt from Tulane.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 05, 2023, 07:32:16 PMWhy isn't Penix the #1 prospect? Serious question. Only seen him a couple of times and both times were impressive. The physical talent is apparent.
Age
Injuries
Reached his potential
Plays awful defenses
His stats against pressure are horrendous
Not mobile
No threat to run.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 06, 2023, 10:42:35 AMMany fans seem to be overanalyzing players or prospects in my opinion and drawing conclusions from only a few plays or a few games. It's about an entire body of work.
Caleb Williams or any prospect will have a bad or great game. Neither defines him or his game.
Example: JJ McCarthy will play Penn State next week. He may light them up or have a crap game. Neither will define him as a QB but he will either be elevated or thrown to the junk pile by fans here after that game. I guarantee it.
Phil: IMO it's one thing to say a guy still hasn't shown he's top-of-the-1st-round material.
It's another thing to say a guy is a definite "yes" or "no" at this time.
Regardless, the answer depends about 0% on what we think, though once in a while one or two of us get a difficult decision correct (is it through coincidence? luck? inside-info? general knowledge?.. probably doesn't matter).
Bob
Quote from: JT39 on November 06, 2023, 03:16:46 PMAge
Injuries
Reached his potential
Plays awful defenses
His stats against pressure are horrendous
Not mobile
No threat to run.
Feels like this "deep" class is thinner than advertised.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 03:28:20 PMFeels like this "deep" class is thinner than advertised.
uconn: You may have read me saying the same thing a few days ago.
Last year at this time we heard how "shallow" the 2023 draft class was and how "deep" the 2024 class would be.
The jury is still out but I'm eagerly awaiting the first round of 2024 to see what actually happens.
Bob
PS. I will say again AT THIS TIME I don't see a potential generational QB (one worth a high first-round pick).
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 03:28:20 PMFeels like this "deep" class is thinner than advertised.
Don't get me wrong. He can be a starting QB. I just wouldn't spend a first rounder on him with that many red flags.
There's about 4-8 QBs where you ask 10 GMs their ranking and you'll get 10 different list with no consensus on who's where.
It's a quality draft for QBs. I think the ceiling on a few isn't quite high.
After the past 11 seasons no draft pick will excite me until they step on the field and actually produce
That is what it has come to regarding the Giants.
Quote from: JT39 on November 06, 2023, 03:14:04 PMBuy these QBs:
Williams
Maye
Daniels
McCarthy
Sell:
Any other Pac 12 QB.
Riley Leonard
Spencer rattler
Dillon Gabriel
Interesting late rounder I have my eye on-
Michael Pratt from Tulane.
Pratts not coming out he's going to transfer and make a ton playing for whatever playoff team needs a qb next year.
I'd like to KEEP reminding everyone that there are a lot of instances of QB's taken in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds who proved to be top-flight franchise QB's.
Most are in the Pro Football Hall Of Fame.
There was also at least one who was un-drafted.
Bob
PS. My point? ----> The issue of who truly deserves to go in the top of the 1st round is quite different from the issue of who becomes (or has potential to become) a true franchise QB. That's why the draft is such a crap-shoot.
So are you guys really gonna do this for the next 6 months? One of us is nuts.
Going to watch JJ McCarthy closely this week vs.Penn State. Thoughts? :ok:
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 06, 2023, 08:33:40 PMGoing to watch JJ McCarthy closely this week vs.Penn State. Thoughts? :ok:
spider: Watch his opponent too. Sophomore Drew Allar will likely come out for the 2025 draft. I think next year as a junior he'll beat both Ohio State and Michigan (a super-rare feat) and take his team to the playoffs. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2023, 12:49:17 AMspider: Watch his opponent too. Sophomore Drew Allar will likely come out for the 2025 draft. I think next year as a junior he'll beat both Ohio State and Michigan (a super-rare feat) and take his team to the playoffs. Bob
Bob - I will take that bet.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 07, 2023, 10:37:51 AMBob - I will take that bet.
Phil: How will I collect when I win? I'm not driving to Hawaii. lol
Franklin winning a big game? Yeah. Sure.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 07, 2023, 12:36:14 PMFranklin winning a big game? Yeah. Sure.
Dgood: Your skepticism is well-founded; I'm right there in line with you.
But the D coordinator is first-rate, IMO.
My point-----> It will take THE PLAYER (Allar) to win both games, and I think he'll be that good by then.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2023, 12:31:55 PMPhil: How will I collect when I win? I'm not driving to Hawaii. lol
Ha Ha. I hear you swim like Michael Phelps.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2023, 12:49:09 PMDgood: Your skepticism is well-founded; I'm right there in line with you.
But the D coordinator is first-rate, IMO.
My point-----> It will take THE PLAYER (Allar) to win both games, and I think he'll be that good by then.
Bob
Bob - I have not gotten the impression the PSU's fanbase has grown impatient with Franklin's lack of success against Michigan or OSU. Am I wrong?
The Big 10 East has been tough.
Bob,
I hope you are right about Allar, but I haven't seen it yet. He has some good physical characteristics but I have seen much else.
I am of the belief that most QBs should get to the pros as soon as they can because college coaching of QBs is mostly terrible. Allar could be an example of that. Anthony Richardson certainly was.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 06, 2023, 08:33:40 PMGoing to watch JJ McCarthy closely this week vs.Penn State. Thoughts? :ok:
Never get too high or too low based off one performance. He will do good things and probably struggle at times cause Penn State's defense is legit. Michigans weakness offensively are their tackles and they have struggled to run the ball like they have the last two years. Chop Robinson can have a big deal, especially if Penn State can get the lead.
Michigans schedule may rue them on this day.
Quote from: JT39 on November 07, 2023, 01:39:00 PMNever get too high or too low based off one performance. He will do good things and probably struggle at times cause Penn State's defense is legit. Michigans weakness offensively are their tackles and they have struggled to run the ball like they have the last two years. Chop Robinson can have a big deal, especially if Penn State can get the lead.
Michigans schedule may rue them on this day.
Looks like Chop might be back, which would be awesome. But the other DEs are serious problems also, Adissa Isaac and Dani Dennis-Sutton, plus our D Coordinator sends a ton of different guys off the edges, with Abdul Carter being one of the guys that wreaks havoc. I feel better about this UM game than I did about the OSU game...I think PSU matches up better vs. UM than they did vs. OSU. Should be a great game, anyways.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2023, 12:49:17 AMspider: Watch his opponent too. Sophomore Drew Allar will likely come out for the 2025 draft. I think next year as a junior he'll beat both Ohio State and Michigan (a super-rare feat) and take his team to the playoffs. Bob
I would love nothing more than for PSU to beat both of these teams but Franklyn has one 2 big wins, OSU in 2016 and Michigan in 2019. He gets outplayed and outcoached every other year.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 07, 2023, 01:11:59 PMBob,
I hope you are right about Allar, but I haven't seen it yet. He has some good physical characteristics but I have seen much else.
uconn: That's because he's a sophomore. I'm only bringing him up now because this topic is full of guys I believe are no further along than Allar and he has the extra year to improve the very items you just listed. Bob
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 06, 2023, 08:33:40 PMGoing to watch JJ McCarthy closely this week vs.Penn State. Thoughts? :ok:
He's slowly becoming my QB1 for this class.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 07, 2023, 03:15:03 PMHe's slowly becoming my QB1 for this class.
I am worried about other teams taking him. I am also worried about mock drafts that have us trading up for Calib Williams.
I will be thrilled if we get Caleb or Drake Maye. Warming up to McCarthy and Daniels.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 07, 2023, 12:57:55 PMBob - I have not gotten the impression the PSU's fanbase has grown impatient with Franklin's lack of success against Michigan or OSU. Am I wrong?
The Big 10 East has been tough.
Phil: Right now it's more an undercurrent of dissatisfaction than open outrage. There's a Daboll parallel IMO. Bob
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 07, 2023, 09:20:13 PMI am worried about other teams taking him. I am also worried about mock drafts that have us trading up for Calib Williams.
We are 5 months away from the draft don't worry too much.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 08, 2023, 11:59:10 AMWe are 5 months away from the draft don't worry too much.
J: All these guys have a shot, but if forced to pick a QB right now it would be Jaden Daniels (LSU).
All other things being equal (which they are not) he would be the front-runner for the Heisman Trophy.
If he played on a real good team, he'd IMO be the talk of this thread (no one even mentioned him yet).
I'm getting the same vibes about him as when Lamar Jackson was in the draft (for
@Ed Vette especially!).
The really good news... he could actually still be there at the top of the 2nd round.
Bob
There is no way he'll be there at the top of the 2nd round. That was the view before the season. He's gonna be a top 5 pick now. I think 3 QBs go in the top 5. Williams, Maye and Daniels. Maybe McCarthy can make it 4.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 12:51:18 AMJ: All these guys have a shot, but if forced to pick a QB right now it would be Jaden Daniels (LSU).
All other things being equal (which they are not) he would be the front-runner for the Heisman Trophy.
If he played on a real good team, he'd IMO be the talk of this thread (no one even mentioned him yet).
I'm getting the same vibes about him as when Lamar Jackson was in the draft (for @Ed Vette especially!).
The really good news... he could actually still be there at the top of the 2nd round.
Bob
If it walks like a 🦆, quacks like a 🦆 and slings a football with a 78% completion %, it's probably Bo Nix.
Bo knows football. Don't discount Bo.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 12, 2023, 02:25:50 AMThere is no way he'll be there at the top of the 2nd round. That was the view before the season. He's gonna be a top 5 pick now. I think 3 QBs go in the top 5. Williams, Maye and Daniels. Maybe McCarthy can make it 4.
Dgood: If you're right about Daniels, it will IMO be due to the success of Lamar Jackson with the Ravens.
Every team passed on him & it's his success that IMO changed how NFL teams view "dual threat" QB's.
A new trend had already begun, but our "Mesozoic Era" management was (as they've been through my entire lifetime) one of the last to see it and act on it. I'm still not convinced that, even though they can now see it clearly, they will act on it in 2024. For this reason alone, the 2024 draft will be of extreme interest to me. Will the stodgy Giants enter the 21st century before it ends?
Bob
PS. This doesn't I've given up on Jones. It only means that his time limit with the Giants may have expired.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:11:56 AMDgood: If you're right about Daniels, it will IMO be due to the success of Lamar Jackson with the Ravens.
Every team passed on him & it's his success that IMO changed how NFL teams view "dual threat" QB's.
A new trend had already begun, but our "Mesozoic Era" management was (as they've been through my entire lifetime) one of the last to see it and act on it. I'm still not convinced that, even though they can now see it clearly, they will act on it in 2024. For this reason alone, the 2024 draft will be of extreme interest to me. Will the stodgy Giants enter the 21st century before it ends?
Bob
PS. This doesn't I've given up on Jones. It only means that his time limit with the Giants may have expired.
Daniels is special. The difference between him and Lamar is this kid has an arm. He threw a pass effortlessly for about 62 yards leading his receiver.
He doesn't just take off either. He scopes the field very well.
Calib in my eyes will have his challenges at the next level.
At this point my top three are Maye, Bo and Daniels. I think Penik drop's because of his injuries and Williams because he's not seeing or throwing to open receivers and is getting self sacks and turnovers. His horrible Oline doing a NYG imitation not withstanding.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 08:21:48 AMDaniels is special. The difference between him and Lamar is this kid has an arm. He threw a pass effortlessly for about 62 yards leading his receiver.
He doesn't just take off either. He scopes the field very well.
Calib in my eyes will have his challenges at the next level.
At this point my top three are Maye, Bo and Daniels. I think Penik drop's because of his injuries and Williams because he's not seeing or throwing to open receivers and is getting self sacks and turnovers. His horrible Oline doing a NYG imitation not withstanding.
Ed: IMO you know your QB's but I ask you... even if the Giants like Maye and want him over all other QB's....
How can Schoen stand before the media & make the case for Maye (assuming they get him in the high first round)?
After the lack of success of Daniel Jones (or, if you still believe in him as I do, delayed or stunted success)
coming out of the ACC, it would require (because Jones will still be on the team) Schoen to say why Maye is a better prospect than Jones! If you disagree with this statement, then tell me what he will say... no, I don't think the Giants will take Maye no matter how much they like him.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:28:36 AMEd: IMO you know your QB's but I ask you... even if the Giants like Maye and want him over all other QB's....
How can Schoen stand before the media & make the case for Maye (assuming they get him in the high first round)?
After the lack of success of Daniel Jones (or, if you still believe in him as I do, delayed or stunted success) coming out of the ACC, it would require (because Jones will still be on the team) Schoen to say why Maye is a better prospect than Jones! If you disagree with this statement, then tell me what he will say... no, I don't think the Giants will take Maye no matter how much they like him.
Bob
I did say at this point. However Maye in my opinion has a nice upside and is further along than Jones was. A lot of this comes down to how they fall to the Giants. I actually believe at this point that Bo Nix would be the best fit for the Giants. After Jones getting injured so many times, I think they would be shy of Daniels. McCarthy would be another good fit in Blue.
Again, too early to make predictions and I have a lot more film to review.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 08, 2023, 12:07:23 AMPhil: Right now it's more an undercurrent of dissatisfaction than open outrage. There's a Daboll parallel IMO. Bob
Answering my own post... after yesterday it's clear the coach SHOULD HAVE (as all the Monday-Morning-QB's will now caterwaul) that Franklin needs to go because he leaned too heavily on the run-game (which obviously didn't work).
My own view is that Frankin was cautious with Allar (a sophomore) yesterday because he realizes this year is not Penn State's year (having already lost to Ohio State proved it to him, IMO) so his decision DOES have a basis in fact, and I see it. He just didn't want the kid to fail on the "big stage" and played it safe (as did Michigan, by the way, with their supposedly great QB McCarthy).
This year, Penn State lacked a legit elite WR (sound familiar?) and Allar will be back next year, whereas Ohio State's QB is not very good and Michigan's QB will be in the NFL. So Franklin may have decided to bide his time and take his "best shot" next year after he presumably coaxes an elite WR to change schools and come to Penn State and/or gives his OL more time to gel (again, does this sound familiar?).
Bob
PS. Even if Penn State won yesterday, IMO Ohio State is the better team and even if Penn State had won and Michigan beats Ohio State, the best Penn State can hope for would have been a 3-way tie, which IMO would not have placed Penn State in the
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 08:39:15 AMI did say at this point. Again, too early to make predictions and I have a lot more film to review.
Ed: Clearly, that's all anyone can say and all views are will still-limited data.
But my point about the Giants taking Maye will exist no matter how well each QB does between now and draft day.
I was just spit-balling the issue to you now because I figured it's legit to consider that issue even today.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:46:12 AMEd: Clearly, that's all anyone can say and all views are will still-limited data.
But my point about the Giants taking Maye will exist no matter how well each QB does between now and draft day.
I was just spit-balling the issue to you now because I figured it's legit to consider that issue even today.
Bob
It's possible but I don't believe they will think that way.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 08:48:48 AMIt's possible but I don't believe they will think that way.
Ed: Fair enough, but now throw in the owners. Does your answer change? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:53:13 AMEd: Fair enough, but now throw in the owners. Does your answer change? Bob
The Owners don't know QBs. They will weigh their options based on the intel provided by the Scouting Reports and his GM/Coaching Staff. Blond hair and Blue eyes a plus.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 08:58:22 AMThe Owners don't know QBs. They will weigh their options based on the intel provided by the Scouting Reports and his GM/Coaching Staff. Blond hair and Blue eyes a plus.
Ed: So I see you finally decided to refer to the elephant in the room, eh? (Yes, I know you've been hinting at it forever).
I wonder how many games we've lost because of that (over my lifetime).
Ever since Eldridge Dickey (AFL) and Marlin Briscoe (NFL) then obviously Warren Moon, I've sat pissed off in the corner. But I stand by my statement (somewhere, maybe not in this thread) that even the Philistines could not ignore the success of Lamar Jackson. Second round? =)) =)) =))
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 09:09:32 AMEd: So I see you finally decided to refer to the elephant in the room, eh? (Yes, I know you've been hinting at it forever).
I wonder how many games we've lost because of that (over my lifetime).
Ever since Eldridge Dickey (AFL) and Marlin Briscoe (NFL) then obviously Warren Moon, I've sat pissed off in the corner. But I stand by my statement (somewhere, maybe not in this thread) that even the Philistines could not ignore the success of Lamar Jackson. Second round? =)) =)) =))
Bob
So do you think that the Giants would have broken Lamar Jackson?
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 09:15:37 AMSo do you think that the Giants would have broken Lamar Jackson?
Ed: Assuming they had the same cast of other players/picks/free-agents as Jones had, it would have been just a matter of time until the top blew off the pot... Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 09:26:27 AMEd: Assuming they had the same cast of other players/picks/free-agents as Jones had, it would have been just a matter of time until the top blew off the pot... Bob
22 players plus backups win or lose games, not 1 player. I agree with you Bob.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 12, 2023, 11:29:11 AM22 players plus backups win or lose games, not 1 player. I agree with you Bob.
Yes it's a team sport but some guys are able to do things to raise the level of others or at least make the most out if what their teammates bring to the table.
The 2011 Giants OL was a shell of it's 2008 self, but Eli was able to make it work. Do we think Jones would have done enough to win that NFC championship game at SF? Or even had a sniff of the playoffs without a real running threat?
Maye and Jones are such different prospects. Maye has an elite arm. He makes throws that Jones can only dream of making. He also goes through progressions better than Jones ever did. Jones was a 2nd round talent. Maye is an elite prospect who would be the top pick in most drafts. Don't helmet scout.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:28:36 AMEd: IMO you know your QB's but I ask you... even if the Giants like Maye and want him over all other QB's....
How can Schoen stand before the media & make the case for Maye (assuming they get him in the high first round)?
After the lack of success of Daniel Jones (or, if you still believe in him as I do, delayed or stunted success)
coming out of the ACC, it would require (because Jones will still be on the team) Schoen to say why Maye is a better prospect than Jones! If you disagree with this statement, then tell me what he will say... no, I don't think the Giants will take Maye no matter how much they like him.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 08:21:48 AMDaniels is special. The difference between him and Lamar is this kid has an arm. He threw a pass effortlessly for about 62 yards leading his receiver.
He doesn't just take off either. He scopes the field very well.
Calib in my eyes will have his challenges at the next level.
At this point my top three are Maye, Bo and Daniels. I think Penik drop's because of his injuries and Williams because he's not seeing or throwing to open receivers and is getting self sacks and turnovers. His horrible Oline doing a NYG imitation not withstanding.
Not giving Williams a pass here but he thinks he has to be superman on every play because for some reason if you watch Lincoln Rileys offenses they don't have quick outs, fast reads, or anything like a hot read if the qb is under duress so he has to either run or make time for the routes to develop.
If you watch Murray and Hurts when they began their pro careers it's the one thing they initially had real problems with because they didn't do it in college at all under Riley.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 12, 2023, 12:30:04 PMMaye and Jones are such different prospects. Maye has an elite arm. He makes throws that Jones can only dream of making. He also goes through progressions better than Jones ever did. Jones was a 2nd round talent. Maye is an elite prospect who would be the top pick in most drafts. Don't helmet scout.
Dgood: Do you think Maye will be listed as "top dog" by draft day? I don't (because he plays in the ACC). It will be an interesting QB draft in 2024, that's for sure (and I'm not even including the possibility that the Giants' may be interest in drafting a high first-round QB; I think they'll draft a QB; the question is in which round will the start looking). Bob
Apples and oranges comparison IMHO. To say a college player can make a pass that DJ can only dream of is unrealistic as former has not played a down in NFL so you have no idea what he can do there.
Some here are speaking in a way that sounds like fact. At this point too early and too many moving pieces to know anything.
My only consolation moving on from DJ is we didn't trade up to draft him and give up 3 future 1st rounders to do so. We made a mistake. Now let's move on.
No because Caleb is a generational talent despite the crazy things I see people here say about him. The ACC is not a weak conference. It is the third or 4th best conference in the sport. The conference is likely placing a team in the playoff. And another is close.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 02:17:41 PMDgood: Do you think Maye will be listed as "top dog" by draft day? I don't (because he plays in the ACC). It will be an interesting QB draft in 2024, that's for sure (and I'm not even included the Giants' possible interest in drafting a high first-round QB, is there actually WILL BE such interest). Bob
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 12, 2023, 03:58:28 PMNo because Caleb is a generational talent despite the crazy things I see people here say about him. The ACC is not a weak conference. It is the third or 4th best conference in the sport. The conference is likely placing a team in the playoff. And another is close.
Dgood: But I can't name the last ACC QB who had better than a 2nd-round-quality NFL career. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 05:28:13 PMDgood: But I can't name the last ACC QB who had better than a 2nd-round-quality NFL career. Bob
I think Trevor Lawrence qualifies, although maybe you meant QBs who have already had their careers (I see you used the word "had").
Deshaun Watson is an XXXXXXX, but he was very good for Houston before all the xxxx went down. Up and down this year.
Sam Howell is playing OK for Washington in basically his rookie year. That is just off the top of my head.
And of course Phillip Rivers had a really good NFL career out of NC State.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 05:28:13 PMDgood: But I can't name the last ACC QB who had better than a 2nd-round-quality NFL career. Bob
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 12, 2023, 07:24:36 PMDeshaun Watson is an XXXXXXX, but he was very good for Houston before all the xxxx went down. Up and down this year.
Sam Howell is playing OK for Washington in basically his rookie year. That is just off the top of my head.
And of course Phillip Rivers had a really good NFL career out of NC State.
Matt Ryan, Michael Vick
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 12, 2023, 05:34:04 PMI think Trevor Lawrence qualifies, although maybe you meant QBs who have already had their careers (I see you used the word "had").
DB: Good catch. I didn't think of that issue (career ongoing vs. career over). Putting it aside for a moment...
I don't want to be in a stats battle, but Lawrence's 2-1/2 years have been less than stellar. Check QB ratings.
Measured by 1st-overall draft status, the jury's still out IMO (honestly, he's a bit better than I expected).
Back to my statement... was he worth a 2nd-round pick? So far, heck yeah!
But my guess on his full career - probably not good enough to pull the boat w/out more help than the Jags have given him so far. He's rapidly approaching "put-up-or-shut-up" territory. Even if we include on-going careers, I don't think 2-1/2 years is enough to determine in which round he deserved to have been drafted. He'll get a 2nd contract. Let's see if he continues to improve. IMO the rate at which he is improving is not very steep and certainly not what you would expect from a 1st-overall pick. The Jags threw him out to the wolves in Year One; in general, he dealt with it very well, but unless the stats start building at a faster rate than they have so far, history will probably show him to have been just another above-average QB... like your average 2nd- or 3rd-rounder.
Bob
I think you really underestimate Lawrence.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 13, 2023, 12:47:11 AMDB: Good catch. I didn't think of that issue (career ongoing vs. career over). Putting it aside for a moment...
I don't want to be in a stats battle, but Lawrence's 2-1/2 years have been less than stellar. Check QB ratings.
Measured by 1st-overall draft status, the jury's still out IMO (honestly, he's a bit better than I expected).
Back to my statement... was he worth a 2nd-round pick? So far, heck yeah!
But my guess on his full career - probably not good enough to pull the boat w/out more help than the Jags have given him so far. He's rapidly approaching "put-up-or-shut-up" territory. Even if we include on-going careers, I don't think 2-1/2 years is enough to determine in which round he deserved to have been drafted. He'll get a 2nd contract. Let's see if he continues to improve. IMO the rate at which he is improving is not very steep and certainly not what you would expect from a 1st-overall pick. The Jags threw him out to the wolves in Year One; in general, he dealt with it very well, but unless the stats start building at a faster rate than they have so far, history will probably show him to have been just another above-average QB... like your average 2nd- or 3rd-rounder.
Bob
Bob,
Fair enough, and good point. I agree his numbers are unspectacular. I do think he did pretty well last year though for a 23 year old second year QB. But very fair to point out that his numbers this year are not great, despite the team's solid record.
With that said, I think it is clear that he is talented, and I don't think the Jags' significant turnaround since his rookie season (which was marred by the disastrous coaching job of Urban Meyer) are coincidental to his being there.
This Saturday is a huge game. I'm really looking forward to see Michigan versus Ohio. I want to see what McCarthy can do against Ohio's defense
Also want to see Jayden Daniel's... out of LSU. I've heard a lot of good things about him. Honestly, I haven't watched too much of him.
I think Daniels will rise to be a top 5 pick.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 23, 2023, 08:02:46 PMI think Daniels will rise to be a top 5 pick.
Honestly havent really seen much of him. Would you be cool if the Giants took him at 5 ?
I would. He's like Lamar, except a much more accurate passer for the same development point.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 23, 2023, 08:22:50 PMHonestly havent really seen much of him. Would you be cool if the Giants took him at 5 ?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 23, 2023, 08:22:50 PMHonestly havent really seen much of him. Would you be cool if the Giants took him at 5 ?
The fans who are high on Jayden Daniels are not considering one very important thing. LSU runs a 1 read offense in which Daniels throws to a primary receiver on that play. He does not go through progressions like they run in the NFL. He has virtually no experience reading defenses and making progressions. This is not something you just learn. Daniels can play in a 1 read system because LSU has NFL starting caliber WRs. For this reason, I have a huge question mark on him.
It is Penix who plays in a one read system. Daniels plays in a much more pro style offense.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on November 23, 2023, 07:57:28 PMThis Saturday is a huge game. I'm really looking forward to see Michigan versus Ohio. I want to see what McCarthy can do against Ohio's defense
Don't get your hopes up. Rumor has it that McCarthy is playing on a sprained MCL which is why he has been basically shelved from running the last two games.
Could be why he hasn't been as good.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 23, 2023, 11:44:39 PMIt is Penix who plays in a one read system. Daniels plays in a much more pro style offense.
No Daniels does not.
LSU has one of the best Offensive lines in the country. Not just in pass protection but in opening up holes for rushing and for Daniels to scramble. This is one of the foundations of that prolific Offense.
Daniels has almost 400 more rushing yards than Diggs but that doesn't deter the use of Play Action to bring up the LB's to execute plays up the seam or in the Flat. Nabers, Thomas, Lacy and Taylor are all tall targets. Safeties have to pick their poison to contain Daniels or those Receivers.
Daniels has to read the Defense and decide run or pass, deep or not. He's Joe Burrow 2.0. He has over 1000 yards rushing and a strong, accurate arm.
I don't know how he would hold up behind the Giants Offensive Line. There would also be a learning curve to the Pro style Offense and I don't see any obstacle in achieving that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 24, 2023, 08:38:31 AMLSU has one of the best Offensive lines in the country. Not just in pass protection but in opening up holes for rushing and for Daniels to scramble. This is one of the foundations of that prolific Offense.
Daniels has almost 400 more rushing yards than Diggs but that doesn't deter the use of Play Action to bring up the LB's to execute plays up the seam or in the Flat. Nabers, Thomas, Lacy and Taylor are all tall targets. Safeties have to pick their poison to contain Daniels or those Receivers.
Daniels has to read the Defense and decide run or pass, deep or not. He's Joe Burrow 2.0. He has over 1000 yards rushing and a strong, accurate arm.
I don't know how he would hold up behind the Giants Offensive Line. There would also be a learning curve to the Pro style Offense and I don't see any obstacle in achieving that.
Ed - the problem I have with Jayden Daniels is that if you are not used to making progression reads in the chaos of so much movement on a field every play, things can blur for a QB and so-called windows are not really so-called windows. Playing under Joe Brady as OC, Joe Burrow did play in more of a progression system. Brian Kelly does not run that. More of a 1 read and let it fly. Daniels has put up amazing stats for sure, but it's these kinds of things where a college QB with what looks like all the physical tools can't make it in the NFL.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 24, 2023, 08:38:31 AMLSU has one of the best Offensive lines in the country. Not just in pass protection but in opening up holes for rushing and for Daniels to scramble. This is one of the foundations of that prolific Offense.
Daniels has almost 400 more rushing yards than Diggs but that doesn't deter the use of Play Action to bring up the LB's to execute plays up the seam or in the Flat. Nabers, Thomas, Lacy and Taylor are all tall targets. Safeties have to pick their poison to contain Daniels or those Receivers.
Daniels has to read the Defense and decide run or pass, deep or not. He's Joe Burrow 2.0. He has over 1000 yards rushing and a strong, accurate arm.
I don't know how he would hold up behind the Giants Offensive Line. There would also be a learning curve to the Pro style Offense and I don't see any obstacle in achieving that.
I think whoever drafts Daniels needs to build an offense around him and his strengths instead of putting him in their offense.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 24, 2023, 10:27:09 AMI think whoever drafts Daniels needs to build an offense around him and his strengths instead of putting him in their offense.
Do you mean like Pat Shurmur did with Jones? Why can't he sit a year and learn? Because he would be expected to start day one?
Quote from: Philosophers on November 24, 2023, 09:56:27 AMEd - the problem I have with Jayden Daniels is that if you are not used to making progression reads in the chaos of so much movement on a field every play, things can blur for a QB and so-called windows are not really so-called windows. Playing under Joe Brady as OC, Joe Burrow did play in more of a progression system. Brian Kelly does not run that. More of a 1 read and let it fly. Daniels has put up amazing stats for sure, but it's these kinds of things where a college QB with what looks like all the physical tools can't make it in the NFL.
Mike Denbrock has run different types of Offense but he's asking Daniels to "let it rip". Wasn't he coached out of a pro style offense that he was asked to run with the Sun Devils? Didn't it take him a year to fully adjust? Why can't he learn to run an NFl spread Offense?
Daniel Jones will be the Giants starting QB in 2024, as long as he remains upright, as dictated by his cap cost- live and dead-period, full stop. That may indeed be the only "known" of likely consequence with 6 games still to play. More likely that they would have beaten Washington, last Sunday? Perhaps. More likely that the Cow even make to the Super Bowl for the first in 27 years? Hardly!
Cheers!
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 24, 2023, 10:53:25 AMMike Denbrock has run different types of Offense but he's asking Daniels to "let it rip". Wasn't he coached out of a pro style offense that he was asked to run with the Sun Devils? Didn't it take him a year to fully adjust? Why can't he learn to run an NFl spread Offense?
I don't know about ASU's offense when he was there. I am not saying he cannot learn it, but when he has had to utilize progressions, his accuracy declines a lot. It makes sense because if you are dropping back with a 1 read throw in mind, you already know your target and the route run so you can focus on it. If you are saying throwing to option #3 on the opposite side of the field after looking over option on the right side running a slant to the inside, then option 2 running a fly on the right side, then option 3 running an out to the left side, that would involve a lot of mental processing.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 24, 2023, 12:54:48 PMI don't know about ASU's offense when he was there. I am not saying he cannot learn it, but when he has had to utilize progressions, his accuracy declines a lot. It makes sense because if you are dropping back with a 1 read throw in mind, you already know your target and the route run so you can focus on it. If you are saying throwing to option #3 on the opposite side of the field after looking over option on the right side running a slant to the inside, then option 2 running a fly on the right side, then option 3 running an out to the left side, that would involve a lot of mental processing.
But you said this is not something he can just learn. I'll be studying more film so for now I'll give you due deference.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 24, 2023, 01:36:13 PMBut you said this is not something he can just learn. I'll be studying more film so for now I'll give you due deference.
Seeing the entire field clearly and having the movement slow down in a QB's eyes is something many QBs are never able to obtain, especially when they have to look around the entire field. The game is just too fast for them. I'd rather have a QB who has spent his college years already doing and refining this. Just saying many QBs wash out in developing this skill.
He has to be on the team. That doesn't mean he will start. If they draft a guy in the top 5, it is likely that guy will start very soon. They are not going to waste another season starting Jones.
Quote from: Painter on November 24, 2023, 12:09:10 PMDaniel Jones will be the Giants starting QB in 2024, as long as he remains upright, as dictated by his cap cost- live and dead-period, full stop. That may indeed be the only "known" of likely consequence with 6 games still to play. More likely that they would have beaten Washington, last Sunday? Perhaps. More likely that the Cow even make to the Super Bowl for the first in 27 years? Hardly!
Cheers!
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 24, 2023, 10:42:29 AMDo you mean like Pat Shurmur did with Jones? Why can't he sit a year and learn? Because he would be expected to start day one?
Depends on where he goes in the draft and who he's in front of or behind. Yeah like Shurmur, or how Daboll and Kafka did last year with Jones minus the leash when it comes to throwing the ball.
Another great game by Bo Niks and on to revenge a missed FG loss to #4 Washington and Penix.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 25, 2023, 10:51:42 AMAnother great game by Bo Niks and on to revenge a missed FG loss to #4 Washington and Penix.
One thing you gotta love about Bo Niks is that he married a gal named Izzy Smoke. No, that's not a ?, it's a fact.
Cheers!
Jones by default may be brought back due to his salary as the starter..but it should be temporary He hasn't proven to stay healthy or consistent to merit a clean slate.
You would think the Brass want their own qb to develop sooner than later.
Quote from: Painter on November 25, 2023, 11:42:07 AMOne thing you gotta love about Bo Niks is that he married a gal named Izzy Smoke. No, that's not a ?, it's a fact.
Cheers!
Some team is going to find the right setting for Nix and utilize him well. His production is off the charts for the Ducks. Amazing season is an understatement
Quote from: Painter on November 25, 2023, 11:42:07 AMOne thing you gotta love about Bo Niks is that he married a gal named Izzy Smoke. No, that's not a ?, it's a fact.
Cheers!
I actually knew that. A former dancer as I recall.
I was thinking about comps for Jayden Daniels and I was remembering the talk
@Ed Vette and I had about Anthony Richardson last season and liking his game. I think Daniels is Richardson without the question marks about passing. Daniels csme I as a pure athlete at ASU and couldn't really pass at all, and has matured into being a phenomenal deep ball thrower, and passer in general.
I think he's got Richardsons mobility and Josh Allen's arm talent, he just needs someone to put it all together. I think Daboll could do that.
I am very intrigued by Daniels. He has put together a downright remarkable season, and he has done it against premiere competition for the most part.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 25, 2023, 12:05:05 PMI actually knew that. A former dancer as I recall.
He met her when she was a cheerleader at Auburn. Bo Nicks may be an interesting name, but hers is even more so now that she's become @izzysmokenicks. =))
Cheers!
I hope you guys are watching the Michigan - Ohio St game. Great game. JJ made two NFL throws - the first in a very tight window for a TD and second rolling out and throwing from the sideline to the sideline with guys bearing down on him. He's finally healthy from injury in Penn St game. Watch for traits.
Quote from: Painter on November 25, 2023, 01:12:40 PMHe met her when she was a cheerleader at Auburn. Bo Nicks may be an interesting name, but hers is even more so now that she's become @izzysmokenicks. =))
Cheers!
Isabell Smoke is her real name. Izzysmokenix has 22k instagram followers. They make a nice couple, wholesome and reminds me of Tom and Mancy Seaver.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 25, 2023, 01:39:52 PMI hope you guys are watching the Michigan - Ohio St game. Great game. JJ made two NFL throws - the first in a very tight window for a TD and second rolling out and throwing from the sideline to the sideline with guys bearing down on him. He's finally healthy from injury in Penn St game. Watch for traits.
Both this game and LSU
Quote from: Philosophers on November 25, 2023, 01:39:52 PMI hope you guys are watching the Michigan - Ohio St game. Great game. JJ made two NFL throws - the first in a very tight window for a TD and second rolling out and throwing from the sideline to the sideline with guys bearing down on him. He's finally healthy from injury in Penn St game. Watch for traits.
Indeed, I am watching it, but simply as an observer of a very decisive game between two highly ranked undefeated teams with neither a rooting nor a scouting interest. And a great game, it is. Wow!
Cheers!
Good lord Jayden Daniels...
Very high on the top 4 guys after today. McCarthy played really well. Daniels is fantastic and of course I love Caleb and Maye. The Giants have to get one of these guys.
J.J. McCarthy looked good today, also warming up to Bo Nix
Quote from: Painter on November 25, 2023, 03:35:24 PMIndeed, I am watching it, but simply as an observer of a very decisive game between two highly ranked undefeated teams with neither a rooting nor a scouting interest. And a great game, it is. Wow!
Cheers!
Larry - at the end of the day football is about being entertained and that game delivered it. Two teams played well.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 25, 2023, 10:51:42 AMAnother great game by Bo Niks and on to revenge a missed FG loss to #4 Washington and Penix.
Ed you might like this mock
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/7-round-2024-nfl-mock-draft-bo-nix-michael-penix-jr-and-j-j-mccarthy-get-selected-early/ar-AA1kvMKR?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=NMTS&cvid=0fec33fce8674e20a6416c3cc42dfd29&ei=7
I've never seem Nix play but heard an analysis of his game on a podcast from The Athletic. Not that they were critical of him but his success at Oregon seems to be related to the offense they run. The vast majority of his throws are under 7 yards with an occasional deep throw to keep the defense guessing. That doesn't say alot about his ability to come off his primary receiver. Maybe he can but it makes him much harder to evaluate on the next level
Nix has no elite traits. He's been in college for 6 years with the Covid exception. And he almost never gets hit or has to deal with any adversity. I'd stay far away.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 25, 2023, 08:54:35 PMNix has no elite traits. He's been in college for 6 years with the Covid exception. And he almost never gets hit or has to deal with any adversity. I'd stay far away.
He probably be better than Jones. Give me J.J. McCarthy
No Caleb, No Maye
Dont reach .... just get 2 O-linemen ...see if Neal can play guard ...... get a DT who can actually stop the run unlike Robinson and Nunez who fleeced us
If Jones...Devito whoever is the QB still cant get it together then draft a QB in 25
Really wanted Caleb or Maye ...but Devito and co dont want it lol... now lets go 9-8 sneak in and win the superbowl lol
So much for those six separate trips to watch UNC and scout Maye. Hopefully they at least got some decent air miles out of all that.
I am really upset about today.
Carson Beck is trending up
https://www.pff.com/news/draft-2024-nfl-draft-position-rankings-quarterbacks
An NFL star QB has the it factor. Who has it in college this year? Caleb Williams looks sullen when something bad happens. I see an alone guy, not a team guy when I watch him. I have not seen enough of Drake to have a view. JJ has the arm, mechanics and is a pump up the team kind of leader, but Michigan is not airing it enough in which you can see his results after say 40 attempts. He's only had two games in which he threw it more than 30 times. Six of his games he threw it 20 or less times. His YPC is generally very good. I think a pass oriented head coach would let him air it out, but would you take a chance on a guy who after 12 games has only 257 pass attempts?
Daniels has certainly showed that. But what you look for in QBs is traits. Josh Allen was bad in college. But he had elite traits that Daboll developed.
I could not disagree more. They are in range for Daniels. If you have a xxxx QB, the OL will not matter. Daniels and McCarthy are still good prospects. Or you could trade up. Another OL high in the draft would be a waste of resources.
Quote from: killarich on November 26, 2023, 04:04:52 PMNo Caleb, No Maye
Dont reach .... just get 2 O-linemen ...see if Neal can play guard ...... get a DT who can actually stop the run unlike Robinson and Nunez who fleeced us
If Jones...Devito whoever is the QB still cant get it together then draft a QB in 25
Really wanted Caleb or Maye ...but Devito and co dont want it lol... now lets go 9-8 sneak in and win the superbowl lol
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 26, 2023, 10:03:13 PMDaniels has certainly showed that. But what you look for in QBs is traits. Josh Allen was bad in college. But he had elite traits that Daboll developed.
Giants are playing themselves out of Daniels' draft spot. I think he's going to blow up the combine and go top 5.
Giants are more likely to get Bo Nix
Bo Nix has no elite traits. McCarthy would be a far better pick. Right now the Giants are 6th. They could go up 4 or 5 by the time the season is over. If they like Daniels, they should move up to secure him. Nix should be avoided. He's another Daniel Jones.
4 QBs will not go in top 6. I'd bet on it.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 27, 2023, 01:26:48 AM4 QBs will not go in top 6. I'd bet on it.
I'd bet 3 go in the top five. I'd also bet the Giants will win a couple of more games and possibly fall out of the top 10.
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This is a two QB draft with a pick 10-20 gamble on another, probably Daniels. More might well be taken (eg by then 24 year old Bo Nix) because so many teams have a QB need but they will just be throwing chips on the table and hoping for a lightning strike.
Quote from: Uni on November 27, 2023, 02:16:14 AMI'd bet 3 go in the top five. I'd also bet the Giants will win a couple of more games and possibly fall out of the top 10.
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3 is a lot different than 4.
Who would the Giants beat? I dont see anyone. They gave up 6 sacks to the worst team in the NFL.
My problem with Bo Nix is that he will be 24 years old by the draft. I was surprised enough to find out that DeVito is a 25 year old rookie. COVID really dragged out the eligibility of these college players. I believe you must factor in their age if you are taking a player so high in the draft.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 27, 2023, 09:52:54 AM3 is a lot different than 4.
Who would the Giants beat? I dont see anyone. They gave up 6 sacks to the worst team in the NFL.
Packers, Rams, and Saints are world beaters? I can easily see the Giants taking two from there
Quote from: TDToomer on November 27, 2023, 10:28:20 AMMy problem with Bo Nix is that he will be 24 years old by the draft. I was surprised enough to find out that DeVito is a 25 year old rookie. COVID really dragged out the eligibility of these college players. I believe you must factor in their age if you are taking a player so high in the draft.
I agree, but not because an older QB means you're getting fewer years from them. I'm not saying that's why you feel that way about older QBs, but I have heard that reason mentioned in the past by others. I personally don't care about that part, because in QB years 1 or 2 calendar years is not important relative to the immense importance of getting the pick right.
The reason why I do agree though is because the difference between being 23 and 19 or 20 in college sports is very material. That really needs to be factored in, and I feel like sometimes it isn't.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 27, 2023, 03:24:05 PMI agree, but not because an older QB means you're getting fewer years from them. I'm not saying that's why you feel that way about older QBs, but I have heard that reason mentioned in the past by others. I personally don't care about that part, because in QB years 1 or 2 calendar years is not important relative to the immense importance of getting the pick right.
The reason why I do agree though is because the difference between being 23 and 19 or 20 in college sports is very material. That really needs to be factored in, and I feel like sometimes it isn't.
Nix is at an age where some 2nd-3rd year NFL QBS are. I think it's a red flag that is has taken him so long to develop. He should have declared for the draft a last Spring. And yes we would be getting a shorter career out of him if he becomes a franchise QB.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 27, 2023, 03:48:12 PMNix is at an age where some 2nd-3rd year NFL QBS are. I think it's a red flag that is has taken him so long to develop. He should have declared for the draft a last Spring. And yes we would be getting a shorter career out of him if he becomes a franchise QB.
Kenny Pickett was similar. Very old by draft prospect standards, 5 year college guy, and was only good in his last year at U of Pitt. Was a total nobody for the prior four years.
Nix at least has had two good years at Oregon.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 27, 2023, 03:49:47 PMKenny Pickett was similar. Very old by draft prospect standards, 5 year college guy, and was only good in his last year at U of Pitt. Was a total nobody for the prior four years.
Nix at least has had two good years at Oregon.
I wasn't aware the Pickett is already 25 in his 2nd pro season. This might explain why 19 teams passed on him.
Remember Brandon Weedon? 22nd overall at age 28!
Quote from: TDToomer on November 27, 2023, 03:57:07 PMI wasn't aware the Pickett is already 25 in his 2nd pro season. This might explain why 19 teams passed on him.
Remember Brandon Weedon? 22nd overall at age 28!
Yup, I do.
Chris Weinke another example. Admittedly he went later, but if memory serves he did win the Heisman.
Hard to develop 25 yr olds. Typically they are good at that age bc they are playing 17, 18, and 19 yr Olds in college.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 31, 2023, 04:54:27 PMI'll caveat my rankings by saying I'm not a fan of any of these guys and hope the Giants pass on drafting a QB this year. I understand the desire from some to move on from DJ ASAP, but it can't come at the expense of reaching on a sub-par talent.
1a. Williams
1b. Maye
3. McCarthy
4. Nix
5. Penix
6. Ewers
7. Daniels
8. Leonard
9. Pratt
10. Sanders
I don't know a whole lot about the Quarterbacks on the list .....but ima e watched Maye a few times. Not impressed.
Williams real deal seen him a few times.....Bo Nix for me!
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Quote from: Woody on November 27, 2023, 05:11:08 PMI don't know a whole lot about the Quarterbacks on the list .....but ima e watched Maye a few times. Not impressed.
Williams real deal seen him a few times.....Bo Nix for me!
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that was posted Oct 31st. Maye's star has fallen since then. At this point in time, I like Daniels and Nix. That will possibly change after this weekend. I love the skills in Calib but he's no good for NY. JJ moved up my chart.
JJ for me. Hopefully we get lucky.
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Right now, I am not sold on Nix as a pro prospect. I feel like he has had it very easy this year. Right now, to me he's a 5 year guy who couldn't hack it in the SEC. That doesn't mean I can't be more convinced on him, but for that happen I need to see him:
(1) Lead his team to a win in the Pac-12 championship game this weekend (and be a big part of the win), and
(2) Play very well and win against an elite team in the playoffs (ie Mich, UGA, Bama, etc).
If I see both of those things happen (obviously number 2 isn't happening if number 1 doesn't), his stock will go up in my eyes. Anything short of that and I will remain unconvinced. Right now I feel like he's not a guy I really want, especially in the first round. I understand he has some things going for him like his build and athleticism, but so does Daniel Jones.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 27, 2023, 06:16:18 PMRight now, I am not sold on Nix as a pro prospect. I feel like he has had it very easy this year. Right now, to me he's a 5 year guy who couldn't hack it in the SEC. That doesn't mean I can't be more convinced on him, but for that happen I need to see him:
(1) Lead his team to a win in the Pac-12 championship game this weekend (and be a big part of the win), and
(2) Play very well and win against an elite team in the playoffs (ie Mich, UGA, Bama, etc).
If I see both of those things happen (obviously number 2 isn't happening if number 1 doesn't), his stock will go up in my eyes. Anything short of that and I will remain unconvinced. Right now I feel like he's not a guy I really want, especially in the first round. I understand he has some things going for him like his build and athleticism, but so does Daniel Jones.
Be careful evaluating players on individual games. I remember how bad CJ Stroud looked against Michigan last year. Still, the Texans were smart not to take one game into account. I'm confident Schoen will do his homework properly.
Quote from: katkavage on November 27, 2023, 06:33:34 PMBe careful evaluating players on individual games. I remember how bad CJ Stroud looked against Michigan last year. Still, the Texans were smart not to take one game into account. I'm confident Schoen will do his homework properly.
It would be part of my overall analysis of him. I already have a good bit of data, which I outlined. If he looks brutal against someone like Michigan, that will kind of shut the door on me actively wanting him. If he looks like a stud in a game like that, then I remain interested and will be watching him with more interest in the combine etc.
Being consistently right all the time about college QBs is extremely difficult. I don't know anyone who can do it, including GMs, coaches, and pundits. And certainly no fans. Many fans think they can, because they do a good job of remembering their good calls better than their not so good ones. But the reality is it's probably the hardest player evaluation to do with any sort of consistency in all of American sports.
I really don't remember Weinke or Weeden being as highly regarded as Nix or Penix is at this point. Certainly Weinke who I think was drafted in the 4th round was not considered a future franchise QB. Weeden was a late 1st rounder picked by a team with a history of chasing fools gold.
I don't think teams will look at other QBs of the same age from 20 years ago as a factor when evaluating current QBs. Is it really relevant that a QB drafted in 2001 was older, drafted in the 4th round and wasn't good? I definitely would not draft Weinke this year.
When did it become bad for a QB to be in college for 5 years btw? It used to be the norm and then they would usually sit another year in the NFL before taking the field. Is it because now the norm is you can leave early and the best usually do?
The age debate is somewhat ironic to me as a Giants fan because the two best QBs for the franchise in my lifetime are also two of the oldest drafted in 1st round since 1967. I get that eras are different, but both Simms and Eli were old.
Well if you like youth, JJ is only 20 years old.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 29, 2023, 03:23:28 PMWell if you like youth, JJ is only 20 years old.
McCarthy or Daniels for me