1. Rookie C.J. Stroud is already one of the NFL's best quarterbacks
It's crazy to think that just seven months ago, there were draft pundits so consumed by reports that C.J. Stroud tested poorly on the S2 cognition test that they convinced themselves the former Ohio State star, who'd go No. 2 overall to the Texans, wouldn't live up to the hype as a top draft pick.
Not only is Stroud on pace to have one of the best rookie quarterback seasons ever, but he already looks like one of the NFL's best signal-callers, regardless of experience. I think his performance Sunday to lead his Texans to a thrilling victory over the Buccaneers — 450 passing yards, a single-game NFL record for a rookie, and a career-high five touchdowns plus a game-winning drive in a contest that saw five lead changes — cemented that status. In just eight games, we've seen that he's the rare breed of quarterback who can put a team on his shoulders.
Pending the results of Monday Night Football, Stroud ranks first among qualified quarterbacks in interception rate, third in yards per attempt, fourth in passer rating, sixth in EPA per dropback and seventh in passing yards and touchdowns. All the more impressive is that he's doing this with what on paper looks like a relatively average supporting cast (that's been playing fantastic football). How much better does Stroud start to look when Houston adds another game-breaking wide receiver? Or establishes a competent run game?
The Texans were desperate for a franchise quarterback after the trade (and fall from grace) of Deshaun Watson. They found one relatively quickly in Stroud, who has the talent to keep Houston in contention for a decade-plus. —Ben Arthur
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/nfl-midseason-review-14-things-weve-learned-this-season-including-c-j-strouds-ascent
This is exhibit A as to why the Giants should and likely will draft a QB in April. You get the right guy and things can turn around almost immediately. The Giants may well have a better overall roster than the Texans. You put a QB like that on this roster and they might actually be a real playoff team!
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 07, 2023, 02:22:11 PMIt's crazy to think that just seven months ago, there were draft pundits so consumed by reports that C.J. Stroud tested poorly on the S2 cognition test that they convinced themselves the former Ohio State star, who'd go No. 2 overall to the Texans, wouldn't live up to the hype as a top draft pick.
Rich: The key words in your post are Ohio State.
I'm starting to believe that even more weight should be given to the school from which the QB comes. This was always true but nowadays the best college teams are essentially minor-league NFL teams.
IMO there are not many outstanding college coaches. Some guys seem to be, but they are IMO riding on the backs of their teams' past (and boosters, maybe) to coerce the very best players to choose their schools.
That's true for Ohio State and Michigan as well, but they have something most colleges don't have: top-to-bottom excellent coaching staffs. That is why they're so hard to beat every year, IMO.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 07, 2023, 02:37:27 PMRich: The key words in your post are Ohio State.
I'm starting to believe that even more weight should be given to the school from which the QB comes. This was always true but nowadays the best college teams are essentially minor-league NFL teams.
IMO there are not many outstanding college coaches. Some guys seem to be, but they are IMO riding on the backs of their teams' past (and boosters, maybe) to coerce the very best players to choose their schools.
That's true for Ohio State and Michigan as well, but they have something most colleges don't have: top-to-bottom excellent coaching staffs. That is why they're so hard to beat every year, IMO.
Bob
It's funny. Some are saying Stroud will hopefully end helmet scouting. I understood that some ding QBs from Ohio State due to their success rate in the NFL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 07, 2023, 02:49:56 PMIt's funny. Some are saying Stroud will hopefully end helmet scouting. I understood that some ding QBs from Ohio State due to their success rate in the NFL.
More times than I can count I read people saying "Well he's from Ohio State so look at all the Ohio State QBs that have flopped therefore he must not be any good". Baffles me. Those QBs have nothing to do with THIS QB. Forget the helmet and focus on the player. Is he good or not? Stroud was excellent last year, and this year Caleb Williams should be the #1 pick regardless of the fact that USC hasn't had a great track record with QBs.
Yeah it's always interesting to look at...especially when you consider Joe Burrow was at OSU too....and he's not all that shabby.
I don't subscribe to the view that a given school cannot under any circumstances produce a high quality player of a specific position, but I don't think the trends are meaningless either. Some schools are better at recruiting and developing certain positions than others. Some schools run offensive and defensive systems that suit certain positions as they develop into NFL players. These trends can also change over time. Again I have never been of the view that an NFL front office should avoid a player they might otherwise like completely out of hand because he happens to go to a certain school, but I do think some schools are particularly good at producing certain positions, and I don't think that's totally random.
I don't think people knocked Strouds throwing ability it's just hard to judge a qb talent with 6 generational talents at Wr. I mean the guy had 6 top 10 picks at wr and wasn't mobile. I think that's why there were questions surrounding him.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 07, 2023, 03:14:00 PMI don't think people knocked Strouds throwing ability it's just hard to judge a qb talent with 6 generational talents at Wr. I mean the guy had 6 top 10 picks at wr and wasn't mobile. I think that's why there were questions surrounding him.
Agreed.
Burrow was in a similar situation at LSU, but he converted that into a national title in resounding fashion. Stroud had some success at OSU and was clearly good, but he didn't have that caliber of success despite playing with people like Garrett Wilson, Chris Olave, Trevyon Henderson, and Marvin Harrison Jr. I think that's part of why he wasn't seen by most people as a clear lock to be a stud pro.
Stroud's game against an amazing Georgia defense was enough for me. He was unreal against the very best college has to offer.
Not everyone here was on the Bryce Young bandwagon. Some people saw the talent in Stroud. Still, let's not put him in the HOF just yet.
In words of Parcells. The guy has only played a couple of games. Let's not put him on HOF yet
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You don't have to put him in the HOF. But he's a good example of how a rookie QB can completely change the trajectory of a franchise.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 07, 2023, 02:58:08 PMMore times than I can count I read people saying "Well he's from Ohio State so look at all the Ohio State QBs that have flopped therefore he must not be any good". Baffles me. Those QBs have nothing to do with THIS QB. Forget the helmet and focus on the player. Is he good or not? Stroud was excellent last year, and this year Caleb Williams should be the #1 pick regardless of the fact that USC hasn't had a great track record with QBs.
This will be interesting to consider if somehow this team ends up over the next year or two in position to draft Riley Leonard.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 07, 2023, 03:22:55 PMStroud's game against an amazing Georgia defense was enough for me. He was unreal against the very best college has to offer.
Saw somebody on Twitter earlier today talking about how Stroud's tape through most of the season didn't really stand out and then his game against Georgia was some of the best play a college QB has ever put on tape. He's looked a heck of a lot like the QB in that Georgia game this season.
Wait and Will Anderson is not helping them? Or Tank at WR? Or a better Nico Collins? How about a new head coach?
Let's stop thinking 100% of the success or failure is due to the QB.
You don't think Hyatt would be making plays if he had a QB who could actually get him the ball when he gets open deep. Nico did pretty much nothing when he had a scrub at QB throwing to him last year. QB makes a huge difference. It is the most important position in sports.
Heard some of his post game presser on a radio show. They asked about the final drive and his answer was great and exactly the type of stuff you would want to hear from a QB.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 07, 2023, 04:57:22 PMSaw somebody on Twitter earlier today talking about how Stroud's tape through most of the season didn't really stand out and then his game against Georgia was some of the best play a college QB has ever put on tape. He's looked a heck of a lot like the QB in that Georgia game this season.
It was like Deshaun Watson versus Alabama in 2017 (seriously, look at that Bama defense... the line was Daron Payne, Quinnen Williams, and Jonathan Allen, while the defensive secondary had Eddie Jackson, Minkah Fitzpatrick, and Marlon Humphrey). Sure, you can still question that player, but peaking versus guys who are going to feature in the NFL has to count for more than the average game.
Quote from: AYM on November 07, 2023, 04:16:46 PMThis will be interesting to consider if somehow this team ends up over the next year or two in position to draft Riley Leonard.
Leonard has extremely pedestrian stats, I have no idea why a team would draft him other than as a backup.
If the Giants draft another Duke QB, I'm telling you right now, they will be viewed as literally the biggest clowns in all of professional sports. The guy will need to be the second coming of Peyton Manning for them to shed that.
They better not even think of doing it.
Not a fan of helmet scouting, but I'd rather stab a fork through my eyes than draft another Duke QB.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 07, 2023, 05:44:43 PMYou don't think Hyatt would be making plays if he had a QB who could actually get him the ball when he gets open deep. Nico did pretty much nothing when he had a scrub at QB throwing to him last year. QB makes a huge difference. It is the most important position in sports.
Nobody said QB is not most important position but it is not 100% of the success or failure. Read my actual words.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 07, 2023, 11:46:41 PMNobody said QB is not most important position but it is not 100% of the success or failure. Read my actual words.
I understand your point, Joe; however, the contributions from the other players you highlighted are significantly diminished without the QB. In the modern NFL there are two types of teams: teams with a franchise QB and teams without one. The latter rarely competes for SBs, while the former consistently turnout double-digit winning seasons. It really is all about the QB. Perhaps that's why KC has played in the last 5 Championship games and Cinci the last two. It makes sense: they have the best QBs. In short, Stroud is the single biggest component to Houston's turn-around, which is the point GMO was making. Teams can win without above average LE, coaches or WRs. What they can't do is consistently win without a true franchise QB.
Quote from: AYM on November 07, 2023, 04:16:46 PMThis will be interesting to consider if somehow this team ends up over the next year or two in position to draft Riley Leonard.
[/quote
Oh I am well aware it's hypocritical but I've got PTSD when it comes to Duke QBs on the Giants. Although I'm willing to admit he might be good even though the others were not...I just want him to be good elsewhere.
Fortunately it seems highly unlikely the Giants even consider him. They are heading full steam into the Caleb Williams sweepstakes and if not him will be in position to draft Maye or McCarthy both of which will certainly grade out higher than Riley Leonard so as long as nobody falls full bloom in love we won't have to worry about another Duke QB on the Giants.
Its half of a season. Stroud has struggled with pressure all year. His OL (with all their injuries) have pass blocked amazingly.
Its amazing how a QB can look with time and a chance to set their feet.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 07, 2023, 11:54:50 PMI understand your point, Joe; however, the contributions from the other players you highlighted are significantly diminished without the QB. In the modern NFL there are two types of teams: teams with a franchise QB and teams without one. The latter rarely competes for SBs, while the former consistently turnout double-digit winning seasons. It really is all about the QB. Perhaps that's why KC has played in the last 5 Championship games and Cinci the last two. It makes sense: they have the best QBs. In short, Stroud is the single biggest component to Houston's turn-around, which is the point GMO was making. Teams can win without above average LE, coaches or WRs. What they can't do is consistently win without a true franchise QB.
I am not arguing with anyone about the importance of the QB position. My point is that others have improved and new players have been brought in. They are all helping but maybe not as much as a QB.
Second, some suggest that all you need is an elite QB. Sorry but with the Giants porous OL, Patrick Mahommes may squeeze a few more wins out of the Giants but he is not taking them to the playoffs being under siege like he would. Same point is relevant for Caleb, Drake or JJ.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 08, 2023, 05:27:59 PMI am not arguing with anyone about the importance of the QB position. My point is that others have improved and new players have been brought in. They are all helping but maybe not as much as a QB.
Second, some suggest that all you need is an elite QB. Sorry but with the Giants porous OL, Patrick Mahommes may squeeze a few more wins out of the Giants but he is not taking them to the playoffs being under siege like he would. Same point is relevant for Caleb, Drake or JJ.
Concerning your first point, I think we're just discussing semantics; for the second point, I somewhat disagree. We just watched the Cinci Bengals make a SB with a horrific OL, which gave up an NFL record 19 sacks in the playoffs, including a single game high of 8. Patrick Mahommes also took his team to the SB with a horrific OL just a few years ago; the right QB can overcome a lot of average play.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 09, 2023, 07:06:48 AMConcerning your first point, I think we're just discussing semantics; for the second point, I somewhat disagree. We just watched the Cinci Bengals make a SB with a horrific OL, which gave up an NFL record 19 sacks in the playoffs, including a single game high of 8. Patrick Mahommes also took his team to the SB with a horrific OL just a few years ago; the right QB can overcome a lot of average play.
Two times is not enough to draw a conclusion. How many great QBs had a year of high sacks and did not produce?
Also are sacks the right metric? Without having seen every game in either year, it's possible sacks happened but otherwise no consistent pressure on other pass plays. A team can win by yielding say 6 sacks but keeping a QB clean otherwise.
CJ Stroud doing it again today!
Beating the Bengals in Cinci!!
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 12, 2023, 03:28:21 PMCJ Stroud doing it again today!
Beating the Bengals in Cinci!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Over 2,200 yards, 14 tds, 1 int and a passer rating over 100.
Not bad for a rookie.
Which is why if the Giants choose wisely next April this rebuild gets right back on track. Outside of that one single position the Giants have an equal or perhaps even better roster than the Texans. But the difference in that one position is jarring.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 12, 2023, 08:19:49 PMWhich is why if the Giants choose wisely next April this rebuild gets right back on track. Outside of that one single position the Giants have an equal or perhaps even better roster than the Texans. But the difference in that one position is jarring.
No they don't. The Texans have good OL, backups or not, and WRs who make plays.
Quote from: JT39 on November 12, 2023, 09:47:03 PMNo they don't. The Texans have good OL, backups or not, and WRs who make plays.
Have you looked at those names? The only reason they're "making plays" is because the QB is getting them the ball. You put Stroud on the Giants and change nothing else and not only is he still an MVP candidate but Hyatt looks like Tyreek Hill or a young OBJ ans Waller looks like Travis Kelce without the Swifties.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2023, 03:21:06 AMHave you looked at those names? The only reason they're "making plays" is because the QB is getting them the ball. You put Stroud on the Giants and change nothing else and not only is he still an MVP candidate but Hyatt looks like Tyreek Hill or a young OBJ ans Waller looks like Travis Kelce without the Swifties.
Who cares what the names are - they are blocking and getting open. Two things we don't do.
The overrated ness of Hyatt is getting silly. He's a one route player at this point.
You can't tell what Hyatt is because the team doesn't have a QB capable of getting him the ball. Taylor found a way, but the other QBs cannot. Cartwheels are done over here to avoid blaming the QBs on this team.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 13, 2023, 05:48:18 AMYou can't tell what Hyatt is because the team doesn't have a QB capable of getting him the ball. Taylor found a way, but the other QBs cannot. Cartwheels are done over here to avoid blaming the QBs on this team.
This team is miles away from being a competitive outside a QB.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 06:25:43 AMThis team is miles away from being a competitive outside a QB.
They did win 9 games last year. Got a few lucky breaks sure but 9 wins is 9 wins. The difference from that to this year was 1) OL injuries and 2) Jones reverting back to his old terrible performances. Stroud on this team wins 9 games easy and maybe more.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 06:25:43 AMThis team is miles away from being a competitive outside a QB.
The same sentiments were uttered about the 3-13-1 Texans last year...
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 06:34:32 AMThe same sentiments were uttered about the 3-13-1 Texans last year...
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2023, 06:34:18 AMThey did win 9 games last year. Got a few lucky breaks sure but 9 wins is 9 wins. The difference from that to this year was 1) OL injuries and 2) Jones reverting back to his old terrible performances. Stroud on this team wins 9 games easy and maybe more.
And the coaching sucks this year. The defense is terrible. And our draft choices have been below average. The players who led us on offense last year should not be back next year.
We need a QB
Three OL
A RB
And at least 2 WRs. One in which is actually dominant.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 06:34:32 AMThe same sentiments were uttered about the 3-13-1 Texans last year...
Yup.
I wonder how people thought about the Bengals the year before they got Burrow or the Jags the year before they got Lawrence. Etc etc. And those are not franchises that have won two Super Bowls since 2006.
Last year fans were petrified about Kafka getting poached by another team and were beyond thankful when he didn't. This year they want his head on a spit. Same range of emotions with Daboll. Fans live in the moment and are, for the most part, highly short-term emotional and reactionary. The hope is that the owner and GM of your team aren't also like that, because you can't run an NFL team (or any large organization) that way.
And btw the above does not mean I'm saying there should be no changes made to the team. In no way do I feel that way. But this "fire every single person involved with the coaching staff and front office" and "we're going to suck for at least 10 years" type of mentality, while an understandable reaction after losses like yesterday and the week before, is one of hyperbole.
CJ Stroud is incredible. Anyone who can't see how he has transformed Houston is kidding themselves.
https://x.com/allday_ajking/status/1723912095987638689?t=426p5rBqrRzuNn2sNN7djw&s=09
Does anyone think Stroud would have made a difference in this team yesterday?
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 13, 2023, 09:19:06 AMDoes anyone think Stroud would have made a difference in this team yesterday?
This isn't the question to ask. The question is what would this team look like right now had you replaced Daniel Jones with CJ Stroud in April. Is this team 2-8 right now with the worst offense in football.
Stroud is making Noah Brown look like Tyreek Hill. Imagine what Stroud could do with a guy like Jalin Hyatt over a full season.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 06:25:43 AMThis team is miles away from being a competitive outside a QB.
They were competitive last year with a QB who is likely to be replaced due to not being good enough, so I'm not sure I agree with this.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2023, 06:34:18 AMThey did win 9 games last year. Got a few lucky breaks sure but 9 wins is 9 wins. The difference from that to this year was 1) OL injuries and 2) Jones reverting back to his old terrible performances. Stroud on this team wins 9 games easy and maybe more.
No doubt they got lucky breaks last year but they also had some resounding late season wins, including a road playoff win against a 13-4 team. So this idea that they just luck-boxed the 6-1 start with mirrors against bad teams is only partially true. It's true, but it's not like they never had solid wins again after that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 13, 2023, 09:19:06 AMDoes anyone think Stroud would have made a difference in this team yesterday?
I definitely think he would have made a difference with regard to offensive production, but it wouldn't have been enough to win the game based on how bad our defense was.
But since fans seem very focused on the lopsided nature of the loss and not just the binary result, I think it is fair to say he would have made a difference.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 13, 2023, 09:19:06 AMDoes anyone think Stroud would have made a difference in this team yesterday?
He would have made a positive difference in every game this season. And we'd have more than 2 wins and 10 yards passing against the Jets. ~X( ~X( ~X(
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 13, 2023, 09:26:00 AMThey were competitive last year with a QB who is likely to be replaced due to not being good enough, so I'm not sure I agree with this.
Agreed. The Giants need a QB and a bunch of pieces to be a Super Bowl team. But building a Super Bowl team is a different standard than building a team that isn't a national joke which is what they are today.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 13, 2023, 09:26:00 AMThey were competitive last year with a QB who is likely to be replaced due to not being good enough, so I'm not sure I agree with this.
Fools gold. We were never competitive with the teams that were close to winning the title. Did you see us against the Cowboys on Thanksgiving or the Eagles in the 2 real games? We were average last year. And very lucky. Last year was like 2016, an outliner.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 13, 2023, 09:19:06 AMDoes anyone think Stroud would have made a difference in this team yesterday?
:greetings:
I sure as hell do.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 09:35:26 AMFools gold. We were never competitive with the teams that were close to winning the title. Did you see us against the Cowboys on Thanksgiving or the Eagles in the 2 real games? We were average last year. And very lucky. Last year was like 2016, an outliner.
I don't think we were very good last year and never said we were. We were competitive though. Parse it any way you want, but if you make the playoffs and (especially) make it to the second round, you were, if nothing else, "competitive" that year. Considering the state of affairs at the end of 2021 and the lack of cap space we had going into 2022, I view being competitive and a playoff team one season removed from that as a short term success. Was it an overachievement? Or "fools gold", as you put it? Sure, probably. But an "overachievement" is usually considered the result of good coaching that has managed to get some results despite inferior talent.
It sounds like your main point is that the team is bad, ie the roster is bad, and that last year was something of a mirage. And I would broadly agree with that. I never thought we were a serious contender last year. But that's different from saying the coach is bad. In fact, as stated above, if you get some moderately solid results with a bad roster, most people would argue that points to you having a good coach, not a bad one.
As for this year, sure, it's a disaster. I have two eyes. But I think snap-reacting and firing everyone based on one bad season after a surprisingly good one would be a mistake. They should make some changes, likely at one or more of the coordinator spots, but not wholesale changes (ie the GM and the HC). And I am reasonably confident they won't, albeit I certainly admit it's possible.
I would argue that if the in house fighting continues and Daboll continues to act like a child - he isnt safe.
I'm sure you thought that about the Texans last year too.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 06:25:43 AMThis team is miles away from being a competitive outside a QB.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 13, 2023, 02:24:05 PMI'm sure you thought that about the Texans last year too.
they are an average team. They lost to Carolina.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 02:57:39 PMthey are an average team. They lost to Carolina.
3-13-1 last year.
5-4 so far this year.
Pretty noticeable single year jump.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 13, 2023, 03:02:16 PM3-13-1 last year.
5-4 so far this year.
Pretty noticeable single year jump.
And Stroud appears to be getting better every single week which is downright scary. He's going to be in the discussion for league MVP. Rookie of the year is just about in the bag already.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 02:57:39 PMthey are an average team. They lost to Carolina.
They are a game over 500; thus, by definition, they're better than average. Moreover, at the midway point, they've already won two more games than they did all last season. Finally, it's odd for you to cite one lose to prove your point, while simultaneously ignoring Houston's wins against playoff bound teams: Cinci, Pit, Jaq.
Look at what they've done in recent weeks as Stroud has progressed. All with multiple OLs on IR.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 02:57:39 PMthey are an average team. They lost to Carolina.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 13, 2023, 08:07:26 PMLook at what they've done in recent weeks as Stroud has progressed. All with multiple OLs on IR.
That would involve objective, fair-minded analysis that doesn't aim to suit any underlying, predetermined narrative though.
Quote from: JT39 on November 12, 2023, 09:47:03 PMNo they don't. The Texans have good OL, backups or not, and WRs who make plays.
With all this talent, why were they the NFLs worst team over the last 3 years? You do realize they were 11-38-1, right?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 13, 2023, 08:11:36 PMThat would involve objective, fair-minded analysis that doesn't aim to suit any underlying, predetermined narrative though.
Are the backups playing poorly? It doesn't matter who plays, it matters how the play, right?
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 08:26:36 PMWith all this talent, why were they the NFLs worst team over the last 3 years? You do realize they were 11-38-1, right?
Coaching matters. Their OC is a shanahan disciple and it really aggressive.
Listen I am not saying stroud hasn't played very well, but there's a lot of parts in thst equation that work and the drafting of Dell and pick of Schultz have been very helpful.
The QB is 90 percent of the equation.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 13, 2023, 08:45:53 PMThe QB is 90 percent of the equation.
No it's not.
It's a big part. Coaching, blocking, getting open and health are major factors as well.
That's fine if you think that. I think it agenda-driven willful ignorance. But I'm done talking about it.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 08:49:50 PMNo it's not.
It's a big part. Coaching, blocking, getting open and health are major factors as well.
Yeah. CJ Stroud is so lucky to be surrounded by great players and coaches. He just lucked into a great situation. It's amazing how average and below average players magically became good players once CJ Stroud took over at QB. <sarcasm>
https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1724175511645999191?t=lapJPA5BmKK4qRSRfWf2tg&s=19
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 13, 2023, 08:57:42 PMThat's fine if you think that. I think it agenda-driven willful ignorance. But I'm done talking about it.
What agenda? Yours or mine.
Are yo7 say8ng jalen hurts was 90% of the equation for the eagles last year?
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 08:49:50 PMNo it's not.
It's a big part. Coaching, blocking, getting open and health are major factors as well.
Coaching is overinflated by fans; fundamentally, and most importantly, it's about talent.
If coaching is as important as you profess, and Bill Belichick is all time great coach, why is he 82-98 without Tom Brady? Why did another HoF coach retire after one loosing season without Drew Brees? How did Josh MacDaniel and Adam Case set NFL scoring records with Brady and Manning and we're both fired 2x without them. I could go on and on; the objective data all suggest the same...in the modern NFL, it's about the QB.
Btw, I would enjoy hearing your perspective concerning Bill B conundrum. If he's a great coach, and coaching is so important, why is he well below average without the greatest QB of all-time? Both cannot be true...
Thankful for the ignore list feature. Very helpful.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 09:26:55 PMCoaching is overinflated by fans; fundamentally, and most importantly, it's about talent.
If coaching is as important as you profess, and Bill Belichick is all time great coach, why is he 82-98 without Tom Brady? Why did another HoF coach retire after one loosing season without Drew Brees? How did Josh MacDaniel and Adam Case set NFL scoring records with Brady and Manning and we're both fired 2x without them. I could go on and on; the objective data all suggest the same...in the modern NFL, it's about the QB.
Btw, I would enjoy hearing your perspective concerning Bill B conundrum. If he's a great coach, and coaching is so important, why is he well below average without the greatest QB of all-time? Both cannot be true...
Coaching is a part. There are many parts to a great team. QB is a big part. Coaching is too. And I agree with you about talent- I've been stressing that all year.
BB hasn't done a good job drafting offensive talent. You're right he has no QB since Brady but his WR and TEs are average and below average as well.
However let me illustrate this point about it all being about the QB. All the great QBs seems to have amazing WRs. Well let's look at how some of the best QBs improved once they got their guy.
Hurts once he got AJ brown took a huge step
Tia looks amazing the last two years... hello Tyreek Hill
Allen got Diggs
Burrow got chase
Cousins got Jefferson
Dak and Lamb are pretty darn good
Purdy has about 4 legit number 1 WR options
I mean even Brady got a boost in TB with Evans
I won't include Mahomes cause he's just amazing. And he wins with anything.
The QB is a big piece. But he's not 90%.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 09:35:48 PMThe QB is a big piece. But he's not 90%.
.
I'm the last 40 years, only 4 teams (phili, Balt x2 and TB) won SBs without QBs who won't appear on a HoF ballet, and 3 of 4 had all-time great defenses with 3-to-4 HoF players. So, it does indeed to be mostly about the QB; it may not be 90%, but it's pretty dang close.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 09:43:35 PM.
I'm the last 40 years, only 4 teams (phili, Balt x2 and TB) won SBs without QBs who won't appear on a HoF ballet, and 3 of 4 had all-time great defenses with 3-to-4 HoF players. So, it does indeed to be mostly about the QB; it may not be 90%, but it's pretty dang close.
You're right it's a big piece but think of all the great ones who never win and probably won't.
Here's my case in coaching. I think you and I agree thst Justin Herbert is a pretty darn QB- probably a top 5ish. And he might be stuck with the worst coach in the NFL.
Quote from: JT39 on November 13, 2023, 09:50:10 PMYou're right it's a big piece but think of all the great ones who never win and probably won't.
Here's my case in coaching. I think you and I agree thst Justin Herbert is a pretty darn QB- probably a top 5ish. And he might be stuck with the worst coach in the NFL.
Coaching is not the Chargers biggest issue, it's lack of back 7 talent, which is why they're 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed.
Besides, you're providing evidence against your own point. You're stating Staley is terrible; yet, with a top 5 QB, it a team can overcome marginal coaching. After all, the Chargers won 10 games last year and made the playoffs. So, it appears its mostly about the QB...
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2023, 10:11:00 PMCoaching is not the Chargers biggest issue, it's lack of back 7 talent, which is why they're 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed.
Besides, you're providing evidence against your own point. You're stating Staley is terrible; yet, with a top 5 QB, it a team can overcome marginal coaching. After all, the Chargers won 10 games last year and made the playoffs. So, it appears its mostly about the QB...
We won 10 games with Jones.. so it goes both ways too lol.
And I do think Staley is terrible. I think he gets fired this year.
How about we all agree that we want Stroud to stink this weekend and for the Texans to lose? <:-P <:-P :P