I was watching some of the podcasts and heated and this was mentioned a few times.
Take the Qb out of it, no matter if it's Jones, Lock, or Devito will Nabers produce regardless of the Qb?
How much?
OROY?
Garrett Wilson went for 1042 yards despite having no one to throw him the ball. So is Nabers that talented that he'll get production no matter what?
The only 2 things holding me back from saying yes is the fact that our offense lacks the deep/intermediate routes that help production and that it seems like no matter what Slayton does his production is always capped at 700 and our 2nd wr at 500.
As long as DJ and Nabers both stay healthy, and with how explosive he is, I think we are looking at a 1,000-1,500-yard season for him.
He is too special of a talent, and DJ will target him a lot, which will improve his stats as well.
But this is just my opinion.
Time will tell
He's not so special that if the OL only allows a very short amount of time before a QB gets hit that he will be effective. NFL CBs can tie him early for a split second to screw up any effectiveness. It's about the OL.
We're about to find out!
No good reason to think not except for those with a still vacuous agenda.
Cheers!
Then I guess all the beat writers and guys covering the Giants have an agenda then because they've all been discussing this very question.
Quote from: Philosophers on May 21, 2024, 10:24:06 AMHe's not so special that if the OL only allows a very amount of time before a QB gets hit that he will be effective. NFL CBs can tie him early for a split second to screw up any effectiveness. It's about the OL.
Yeah I think the context in which the question was asked by different guys was asked so in a way to determine how special the beat writers and talking heads think Nabors can be.
Like is he Garrett Wilson or a Larry Fitzgerald who produced regardless of who was around him or does he need that pairing.
As much as a great qb sometimes needs a great Wr to be elite the same can be said for the Wr. Some though produce regardless and I think it's a little premature to even really know at this point before practices have really even started.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 21, 2024, 11:38:37 AMThen I guess all the beat writers and guys covering the Giants have an agenda then because they've all been discussing this very question.
Having a vacuous biased agenda hardly depends on beat writer and other media discussions, now does it?
Cheers!
Initially, IMO he'll "improve" the production of the other WR's lined up with him more than hit home runs himself.
After he figures out the pro game and how/where he fits in (hopefully by game four) he'll start to show his stuff.
Only a super-blue-chip player will make much noise in the first four games, so I'm giving him some leeway.
Bob
PS. Don't get too pumped up if he looks great in the preseason... they'll try their best to make that happen but IMO it probably won't translate into the regular season for a while.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 21, 2024, 09:46:37 AMI was watching some of the podcasts and heated and this was mentioned a few times.
Take the Qb out of it, no matter if it's Jones, Lock, or Devito will Nabers produce regardless of the Qb?
How much?
OROY?
Garrett Wilson went for 1042 yards despite having no one to throw him the ball. So is Nabers that talented that he'll get production no matter what?
The only 2 things holding me back from saying yes is the fact that our offense lacks the deep/intermediate routes that help production and that it seems like no matter what Slayton does his production is always capped at 700 and our 2nd wr at 500.
This is a good topic. I think the Garrett Wilson numbers represent a reasonable floor for Nabers with a bad QB situation. At least I hope that's the case.
Watching Wilson, the talent is undeniable. But he doesn't have the type of impact you want to see from an elite WR (no fault of his own).
I'm hoping Nabers's YAC production will elevate him to the next tier in terms of production and impact.
Quote from: Painter on May 21, 2024, 12:33:22 PMHaving a vacuous biased agenda hardly depends on beat writer and other media discussions, now does it?
Cheers!
What agenda could possibly served discussing how Nabers will fair as a rookie when you take the qb out of the conversation which I did at the beginning of the post?
Nabers' after the catch skills are QB proof... but his ability to stress the defense at multiple levels is not (and requires the QB and/or OL to adjust and improve).
Quote from: Philosophers on May 21, 2024, 10:24:06 AMHe's not so special that if the OL only allows a very amount of time before a QB gets hit that he will be effective. NFL CBs can tie him early for a split second to screw up any effectiveness. It's about the OL.
Joe, I agree. The O-line play is more likely to be the limiting factor, than QB. Even if Jones is ineffective upon his return, they have Lock.
Quote from: Philosophers on May 21, 2024, 10:24:06 AMHe's not so special that if the OL only allows a very short amount of time before a QB gets hit that he will be effective. NFL CBs can tie him early for a split second to screw up any effectiveness. It's about the OL.
Our O line was never good when OBJ was on the Giants. It has been varying degrees of bad since the 2012 season.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2024, 05:02:36 PMOur O line was never good when OBJ was on the Giants. It has been varying degrees of bad since the 2012 season.
But not 85 sacks bad and through the roof pressure rates.
If Nabers gets normal NFL time to run a route, he wins in most cases.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2024, 05:02:36 PMOur O line was never good when OBJ was on the Giants. It has been varying degrees of bad since the 2012 season.
Good point. OBJ was lethal for 3+ years regardless of how poorly the OL played.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2024, 05:02:36 PMOur O line was never good when OBJ was on the Giants. It has been varying degrees of bad since the 2012 season.
Really? In his first 3 years, which were his best 3 years, the Giants were 9th in fewest sacks, t4 in fewest sacks, and t3 in fewest sacks. They've never come close to this proficiency in pass blocking in the post-Eli period, during which their league ranking in sacks allowed averaged 26th fewest. Even in OBJ's 2 good years after his injury year the OL was middle of the road, 22nd and 19th - rankings that would mark a huge improvement if they were able to achieve that this year.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on May 21, 2024, 06:35:47 PMGood point. OBJ was lethal for 3+ years regardless of how poorly the OL played.
See my post above. The OL was nowhere poor in his 3 glory years. League rankings of a top 10 and 2 top 5s in fewest sacks allowed.
I guess memories are something else that needs to get fact checked, besides the eye test.
Quote from: Philosophers on May 21, 2024, 05:18:47 PMBut not 85 sacks bad and through the roof pressure rates.
If Nabers gets normal NFL time to run a route, he wins in most cases.
My real concern is RG. Whoever man's thar spot is between JMS and Neal. Eluemunor has been a significantly better tackle than guard, but I guess he goes to RG, but if we need him for a failed Neal then there is no answer at RG that isn't Stinnie.
I do however think Neal has been injured both his seasons, and from the information coming out recently he was severely injured both his rookie and 2nd year while playing which limited his movement significantly. So hopefully being completely health and having a new oline coach do wonders for him.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 21, 2024, 07:09:37 PMSee my post above. The OL was nowhere poor in his 3 glory years. League rankings of a top 10 and 2 top 5s in fewest sacks allowed.
I guess memories are something else that needs to get fact checked, besides the eye test.
Your obsessive agenda with distorting this team's history aside, this is a thread about Nabers' ability to perform despite the QB quality. It's not a referendum on whether the OL will play as poorly or any better than last season.
They brought in a couple of vets and are hoping for good health from Thomas and growth from JMS. The assumption is the OL will be somewhat better. The question is how Nabers will perform assuming the current QBs play below par. Is he QB proof?
Step away from your canned answers and think about the thread's premise for once.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 21, 2024, 07:05:59 PMReally? In his first 3 years, which were his best 3 years, the Giants were 9th in fewest sacks, t4 in fewest sacks, and t3 in fewest sacks. They've never come close to this proficiency in pass blocking in the post-Eli period, during which their league ranking in sacks allowed averaged 26th fewest. Even in OBJ's 2 good years after his injury year the OL was middle of the road, 22nd and 19th - rankings that would mark a huge improvement if they were able to achieve that this year.
Per PFF, the line was comfortably below average (ie bad) in each of Beckham's biggest three years. Phrase it how you like, but it was not good. The point was that an elite receiver can still produce at a high level behind a not good O line, depending on other circumstances. I never made a precise equation to the current line. You inferred that for some reason, even though I clearly said it has been
varying degrees of bad since 2012, a statement I firmly stand by.
https://www.pff.com/news/2014-pff-offensive-line-rankings
https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season
https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on May 21, 2024, 07:17:58 PMYour obsessive agenda with distorting this team's history aside, this is a thread about Nabers' ability to perform despite the QB quality. It's not a referendum on whether the OL will play as poorly or any better than last season.
They brought in a couple of vets and are hoping for good health from Thomas and growth from JMS. The assumption is the OL will be somewhat better. The question is how Nabers will perform assuming the current QBs play below par. Is he QB proof?
Step away from your canned answers and think about the thread's premise for once.
Saying the OL played poorly during OBJ's 3 glory years is distorting the team's history.
One man's canned answers is another man's documented facts.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2024, 07:22:59 PMPer PFF, the line was comfortably below average (ie bad) in each of Beckham's biggest three years. Phrase it how you like, but it was not good. The point was that an elite receiver can still produce at a high level behind a not good O line, depending on other circumstances. I never made a precise equation to the current line. You inferred that for some reason, even though I clearly said it has been varying degrees of bad since 2012, a statement I firmly stand by.
https://www.pff.com/news/2014-pff-offensive-line-rankings
https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season
https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season
They literally drafted OBJ because the owner said the offense is broken.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 21, 2024, 07:23:59 PMSaying the OL played poorly during OBJ's 3 glory years is distorting the team's history.
One man's canned answers is another man's documented facts.
No it's your odd obsession to drive home the same point about the OL you make in countless threads. You don't like the OL, we get it.
The offense was terrible before OBJ arrived and then they were top-10 in passing. Everyone watching understood it was OBJ who transformed the offense. You are rewriting history to suggest he was plugged into anything other than a dysfunctional situation.
Giants O line ranking in 2013 before OBJ was 28th
Eli Mannings numbers that year without an elite #1 WR were
57% 3818 Yards 18 TD 27 Int 69.4 RTG
Giants O line ranking in 2014 after OBJ was 20th
Eli Mannings numbers that year with an elite #1 WR were
63% 4400 Yards 30 TD 14 Int 92.1 RTG
So, they improved the O line and brought in an elite WR, and that had a major impact on Mannings numbers.
I would say Schoen has improved this year's O line a bit, and if Nabers is the real deal, then an elite WR was brought in.
Let's hope Nabers can have the same impact on DJ's career as OBJ had on Eli Mannings.
But only time will tell.
We will have to see how this plays out.
Lets see how he does against press coverage and if he cleans up his routes. I think WDR will benefit underneath with Nabors and Hyatt commanding Cover 2.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 21, 2024, 07:14:20 PMMy real concern is RG. Whoever man's thar spot is between JMS and Neal. Eluemunor has been a significantly better tackle than guard, but I guess he goes to RG, but if we need him for a failed Neal then there is no answer at RG that isn't Stinnie.
I do however think Neal has been injured both his seasons, and from the information coming out recently he was severely injured both his rookie and 2nd year while playing which limited his movement significantly. So hopefully being completely health and having a new oline coach do wonders for him.
Jess - I'll be very disappointed if their best RT is playing RG. That simply can't happen. It's got to be the best 5 at their positions and to establish it early so they get reps.
Quote from: Philosophers on May 22, 2024, 09:17:14 AMJess - I'll be very disappointed if their best RT is playing RG. That simply can't happen. It's got to be the best 5 at their positions and to establish it early so they get reps.
Yeah from what I'm hearing at otas they haven't defined a 5, but instead are working on 2 man blocking combos currently so hopefully we see something soon.
No receiver is really quarterback-proof. That was my point leading all the way up to the draft.
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 22, 2024, 06:33:13 AMI think WDR will benefit underneath with Nabors and Hyatt commanding Cover 2.
Ed: THIS is what I hope for (at least in the initial four games). After that, we'll see how good he really is. Bob
Quote from: Philosophers on May 21, 2024, 10:24:06 AMHe's not so special that if the OL only allows a very short amount of time before a QB gets hit that he will be effective. NFL CBs can tie him early for a split second to screw up any effectiveness. It's about the OL.
THAT =D>
We've seen the horrific stats about the amount of time DJ has had to throw before pressured or sacked, and I wonder if anyone can find those stats for his rookie year.
For the hell of it I just watched a video of his rookie highlights and while granting they were highlights he was doing a lot of things that he supposedly now can't do - throwing the ball down the field, throwing guys open, putting the ball into tight spots, hitting guys in stride so they could get YAC, etc. But I also noticed that his protection seemed to hold up better than it did in 2023, which seems to have been a tipping point.
So I wonder if he really did have more time in the pocket in his rookie year or if that impression was just an artifact of watching a highlight video. I do know that his rookie OL gave up just over half the number of sacks than the 2023 OL but I'd really like to compare those 'time to pressure' stats if anyone has them.
BTW, watching that video reminded me of what a beast Golden Tate was in getting YAC. And how good Sterling Sharpe was back then.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 24, 2024, 11:33:54 PMWe've seen the horrific stats about the amount of time DJ has had to throw before pressured or sacked, and I wonder if anyone can find those stats for his rookie year.
For the hell of it I just watched a video of his rookie highlights and while granting they were highlights he was doing a lot of things that he supposedly now can't do - throwing the ball down the field, throwing guys open, putting the ball into tight spots, hitting guys in stride so they could get YAC, etc. But I also noticed that his protection seemed to hold up better than it did in 2023, which seems to have been a tipping point.
So I wonder if he really did have more time in the pocket in his rookie year or if that impression was just an artifact of watching a highlight video. I do know that his rookie OL gave up just over half the number of sacks than the 2023 OL but I'd really like to compare those 'time to pressure' stats if anyone has them.
BTW, watching that video reminded me of what a beast Golden Tate was in getting YAC. And how good Sterling Sharpe was back then.
2.5 with a pressure rate of 29%
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 25, 2024, 04:11:00 PM2.5 with a pressure rate of 29%
Isn't 29% really high?
Quote from: Philosophers on May 25, 2024, 06:04:08 PMIsn't 29% really high?
Yeah but I don't know if it's relative to games played that season because he started less than most.
Nabers on this team could open WanDale and Hyatt to have explosive plays
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 25, 2024, 06:25:21 PMYeah but I don't know if it's relative to games played that season because he started less than most.
Playing more game may improve or worsen the stat. I dont think that matters.
I cant wait to watch Nabers play. Injust hope it's with real blocking and throwing and timely playcalling.