Believe me I understand 3-13. I'm old enough to have lived through them before.
I know that we need a QB> Who doesnt know that? I have no clue how we are going to get not one but two.
I know that we are short on talent, especially depth.
But I have to ask. Is it a lost cause? Is there NO hope that we might get better? Is there NO core of players, however small, to build around?? The beat writers and pundits and now the BBH is nothing but doom and gloom.
How long must we read about how bad we are? I knew that 4 games into the season.
I understand the disappointment of some because JS and DB have been retained but does that automatically put us in the dumpster again? Are we going to read all year about the failures and shortcomings of our GM? Now we are reading that players were unhappy> Of course they were. Nobody like to lose and be part of a losing team. But am I supposed to believe that those same players will go into NEXT year with a losing attitude? If yes, then why should I care? Why would I add another year to rooting for a football team. I have better things to do with my life.,. such as a new great grandson born yesterday. Instead I went out and bought him his first Giant T-shirt. What a fool I am. Over the years I have introduced the grandkids to the BBH. Yesterday I emailed all of them and apologized. I told all of them that as they well know everyone is entitled to their opinions but the doom and gloomers are not necessarily the majority. They will have to figure that out themselves.
To be very blunt and frank--I have never in all my life been able to figure out how anyone can have a favorite team to root for and hate the leadership of that team. Oh I get the notion of just "telling it like it is" and guys like me have got to stop drinking the kool aid and face facts.
I get it--DJ sucked. But do we have to rehash that almost every single day. He's gone. No longer a Giant. Cant I look forward to each new day with hope and anticipation that JS and DB have learned from their mistakes? Cant i Take some feeling of promise that the draft class of JS last year was one of the best in the NFL?? I am to conveniently forget and disregard that because we were 3-14 and JS screwed up the DJ, Barkley, LW, McKinney Lock, Devito situations he doesn't get another chance>
On a personal note I am grateful that my wife doesn't have that attitude toward me else she would have kicked me to the curb 60 years ago
I get it als0. I dont have to come on BH daily and read opinions that differ from mine and above all if I do read take then for what they are just opinions
Happy New Year everyone
Dumpster Dan
Dan,
NO, we don't!
YES, you can!
YES, you can!
You are MOST BLESSED to have someone who loves you so much to be committed to stand by your side for 60+ years; that is nearly four (4) years longer than the day I was born into this world!
I hope you DO NOT come here for groupthink or else this would be a boring place! The spirit of debate here is fun yet just about everyone here has an underlying respect for each other, at a minimum, and many have close, brotherhood-like friendships that will last a lifetime.
It doesn't get much better than that. You have said it yourself in that you've seen this franchise at its lowest point. You were one of many Giants' fans who held the votive candle in support of the faith they would, one day, turn it around, and they always did.
As for the "dynamic duo" surviving another year, it is the least of all evils, for now. If a year from now, they manage to get this thing turned around, there is no person I want to hear from more than yourself commenting about "hope." You'll be our spiritual leader preaching from the pulpit on the subject!
Hope will always be there despite the "mob mentality" coming from their mouths. Let's see what this off-season produces and we can revisit this topic.
Peace!
There is hope, if Schoens drafting more recently is a sign of whats to come, along with some cash to spend, they can acquire the talent needed.
They have moved on from Jones and can actually build now without the bottleneck.
We'll see where things go with the injured players, coaching staff etc, hope is not lost. A roster not much different still recently had a playoff berth and COTY.
Time will tell.
Don't worry Dan, history is on our side.
We have dug out of this quagmire before.
All we need is another George Young, Bill Parcells, Phil Simms and LT and we will be on our way again.
:) :)
I think the team is in a similar situation as when they gave up on Dave Brown
Quote from: Dumpster Dan on January 10, 2025, 04:01:15 PMBelieve me I understand 3-13. I'm old enough to have lived through them before.
I know that we need a QB> Who doesnt know that? I have no clue how we are going to get not one but two.
I know that we are short on talent, especially depth.
But I have to ask. Is it a lost cause? Is there NO hope that we might get better? Is there NO core of players, however small, to build around?? The beat writers and pundits and now the BBH is nothing but doom and gloom.
How long must we read about how bad we are? I knew that 4 games into the season.
I understand the disappointment of some because JS and DB have been retained but does that automatically put us in the dumpster again? Are we going to read all year about the failures and shortcomings of our GM? Now we are reading that players were unhappy> Of course they were. Nobody like to lose and be part of a losing team. But am I supposed to believe that those same players will go into NEXT year with a losing attitude? If yes, then why should I care? Why would I add another year to rooting for a football team. I have better things to do with my life.,. such as a new great grandson born yesterday. Instead I went out and bought him his first Giant T-shirt. What a fool I am. Over the years I have introduced the grandkids to the BBH. Yesterday I emailed all of them and apologized. I told all of them that as they well know everyone is entitled to their opinions but the doom and gloomers are not necessarily the majority. They will have to figure that out themselves.
To be very blunt and frank--I have never in all my life been able to figure out how anyone can have a favorite team to root for and hate the leadership of that team. Oh I get the notion of just "telling it like it is" and guys like me have got to stop drinking the kool aid and face facts.
I get it--DJ sucked. But do we have to rehash that almost every single day. He's gone. No longer a Giant. Cant I look forward to each new day with hope and anticipation that JS and DB have learned from their mistakes? Cant i Take some feeling of promise that the draft class of JS last year was one of the best in the NFL?? I am to conveniently forget and disregard that because we were 3-14 and JS screwed up the DJ, Barkley, LW, McKinney Lock, Devito situations he doesn't get another chance>
On a personal note I am grateful that my wife doesn't have that attitude toward me else she would have kicked me to the curb 60 years ago
I get it als0. I dont have to come on BH daily and read opinions that differ from mine and above all if I do read take then for what they are just opinions
Happy New Year everyone
Dumpster Dan
Glad to see you echo what many of us do believe. You are correct in that there is an agenda by some to just bash, bash, and then scour the internet to find people who support this agenda of bash. I can understand as the season wore on, we weren't happy with some of the decisions by our coaching staff, but now the season is over, and what do we have to look forward to, the same agenda of bash, bash, and more bash even though we were promised no more.
I know I am sick of it. We need to move on and have hope that this regime will right the ship, bring in a new QB and we cans tart to see that light at tunnel's end once again.
We are in for some tough times ahead. There is a small chance the team will get really lucky and turn things around quickly, but it looks more likely there will be more losing than winning in the near future
(https://i.imgur.com/5TwGHzq.jpeg)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2025, 06:51:40 AMWe are in for some tough times ahead. There is a small chance the team will get really lucky and turn things around quickly, but it looks more likely there will be more losing than winning in the near future
(https://i.imgur.com/5TwGHzq.jpeg)
True.
I don't see the logic in assuming we'll be worse next year (or no better than this year).
A simple example of why that doesn't make sense is at QB (easily the most important on a pro team). For years, the fan base (in general) has berated Daniel Jones. Let's assume they were correct. It's logical to do that because the people who get paid money to answer that question just allowed him to leave.
If he was as bad as the consensus believed, then it should be EASY to find someone better.
I'd be more worried about improving at QB if we had lost a player widely considered to be GOOD.
Wouldn't you?
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 11, 2025, 08:07:45 AMI don't see the logic in assuming we'll be worse next year (or no better than this year).
A simple example of why that doesn't make sense is at QB (easily the most important on a pro team). For years, the fan base (in general) has berated Daniel Jones. Let's assume they were correct. It's logical to do that because the people who get paid money to answer that question just allowed him to leave.
If he was as bad as the consensus believed, then it should be EASY to find someone better.
I'd be more worried about improving at QB if we had lost a player widely considered to be GOOD.
Wouldn't you?
Bob
Bob,
To best understand the logic:
1) First, the metric was wins, not "better." The Giants face (by the only metric currently available, 2024 wins and losses). There is considerable evidence that the strength of the schedule strongly impacts NFL team success (in terms of wins and losses). A better team could still have as many losses next season.
2) DJ clearly regressed in year 6, and it's reasonable to put him among the 5 worst starters in the league. We have also heard over the past 6 years that even the middle of the pack isn't good enough for the team's starting QB. So improving to the bottom ten or even middle of the pack isn't going to be considered acceptable for the QB position based on the standards set. So you can get a better QB than DJ, and still not have "solved" the QB position.
3) The Giants only won 3 games, so they is still a considerable margin for winning more games and still falling into he "lose more games than they win" standard you are referring to.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2025, 08:21:33 AMthe metric was wins, not "better."
Rich: I was responding to the question in the title, and Dan re-posed it in his original post as re: "Is there hope for [the Giants] to get better? (paraphrasing)
As for the question of more wins, next year's schedule looks tough.
Will we win more than THREE? Well, we almost did with this group. They actually had to get rid of Jones mid-season to AVOID winning more than three.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 11, 2025, 08:07:45 AMI don't see the logic in assuming we'll be worse next year (or no better than this year).
A simple example of why that doesn't make sense is at QB (easily the most important on a pro team). For years, the fan base (in general) has berated Daniel Jones. Let's assume they were correct. It's logical to do that because the people who get paid money to answer that question just allowed him to leave.
If he was as bad as the consensus believed, then it should be EASY to find someone better.
I'd be more worried about improving at QB if we had lost a player widely considered to be GOOD.
Wouldn't you?
Bob
Bob,
Great point. I think it's not just the QB that people have pointed to, but the exodus of talent as well.
So to your point the QB should be an easy upgrade and on the other front, there isn't top flight talent to lose this offseason.
Personally I don't see potential for a big improvement in 1 year. Beyond that I don't think anyone can predict.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 11, 2025, 08:36:01 AMBob,
Great point. I think it's not just the QB that people have pointed to, but the exodus of talent as well.
So to your point the QB should be an easy upgrade and on the other front, there isn't top flight talent to lose this offseason.
Personally I don't see potential for a big improvement in 1 year. Beyond that I don't think anyone can predict.
uconn: Yes. It's the old "reversion to the mean" principle (like stretching a rubber band). The HARD part for any NFL team is to rise from an 8-9 or 9-8 team to a legitimate contender. Bob
Quote from: LennG on January 10, 2025, 07:43:23 PMGlad to see you echo what many of us do believe. You are correct in that there is an agenda by some to just bash, bash, and then scour the internet to find people who support this agenda of bash. I can understand as the season wore on, we weren't happy with some of the decisions by our coaching staff, but now the season is over, and what do we have to look forward to, the same agenda of bash, bash, and more bash even though we were promised no more.
I know I am sick of it. We need to move on and have hope that this regime will right the ship, bring in a new QB and we cans tart to see that light at tunnel's end once again.
This post reminds me of an observation from my 35 years of volunteer work on an emergency and rescue squad. For any volunteer organization to function effectively, you need doers. Doers are the people who put in the extra time and effort to do the work that is needed for a place to run. Having sat through many monthly business meetings, as sure as there are doers, you are going to have complainers. They are the ones not doing the work but are more than happy to sit in the back of the room and criticize and put down the doers who put themselves out there.
I picked up on this dynamic early in my volunteer career. One thing I vowed was that I was going to be a doer. I would be a positive contributor and not be one of the whiners in the back of the room hurling barbs at the doers, no matter how much easier and emotionally satisfying the latter is.
BBH promised to be the BEST INFORMED fans, not the fans who are selectively ignorant to boost optimism. Information and stories are going to be brought to this forum and are not going to be censored like I am Pat Hanlon.
In my opinion the Giants are in a position of weakness in their endeavor to improve, if it can be done at all in next few years .....now, I hope I am wrong.
Sounds bad but thanks to Mr Mara and his decision to keep the GM and coach after two of the worst years in Giant history, along with his very non convincing presser basically saying both are on the clock to improve or else !
Where are the Giants today ? in the view of the rest of league ? With FA 's ? new coaches if any changes are made ? In the eyes of fans ...old and new ?
Who would want to be part of this mess ? with two lame duck people in charge?
Maybe, things will turn around ...but it will have to be done with the existing staff ....Good quality Fa"s ? (Not sure many will want to come and play for a lame duck coach ?) and another very good draft. Can it happen ? Maybe , but when the owner comes out with the press conference and comments about the state of his leadership the way he did in that presser....wow , the pressure is on and he did not do his GM and head coach any favors. ... Some may think, good the pressure should be on them ... I am one of those people , but man, Mr. Mara is his own worst enemy ....in my opinion again ...if he is willing to stay the course...which he has done,
then at least come out and fake it if need be. show support for them and try to be positive about his team...
try to create a positive atmosphere for the team ... instead he has contributed to the current uncertainty that overwhelms the team at this time.
Maybe I am over reacting ...but until the Giants can show me something ???
I feel that Mara has to show some change in his or his family's roles in the team as a sign of change from the top for the team to get better.. will it happen ?
hoping so
Quote from: Woody on January 11, 2025, 10:15:57 AMIn my opinion the Giants are in a position of weakness in their endeavor to improve, if it can be done at all in next few years .....now, I hope I am wrong.
Sounds bad but thanks to Mr Mara and his decision to keep the GM and coach after two of the worst years in Giant history, along with his very non convincing presser basically saying both are on the clock to improve or else !
Where are the Giants today ? in the view of the rest of league ? With FA 's ? new coaches if any changes are made ? In the eyes of fans ...old and new ?
Who would want to be part of this mess ? with two lame duck people in charge?
Maybe, things will turn around ...but it will have to be done with the existing staff ....Good quality Fa"s ? (Not sure many will want to come and play for a lame duck coach ?) and another very good draft. Can it happen ? Maybe , but when the owner comes out with the press conference and comments about the state of his leadership the way he did in that presser....wow , the pressure is on and he did not do his GM and head coach any favors. ... Some may think, good the pressure should be on them ... I am one of those people , but man, Mr. Mara is his own worst enemy ....in my opinion again ...if he is willing to stay the course...which he has done,
then at least come out and fake it if need be. show support for them and try to be positive about his team...
try to create a positive atmosphere for the team ... instead he has contributed to the current uncertainty that overwhelms the team at this time.
Maybe I am over reacting ...but until the Giants can show me something ???
I feel that Mara has to show some change in his or his family's roles in the team as a sign of change from the top for the team to get better.. will it happen ?
hoping so
Woody: IMO you're not over-reacting. All of us have waited long enough for results and I can't blame anyone for blowing off a lot of steam at this point. My view is that it will be a lot easier getting back to 8-9 or 9-8 than it will be to rise above that level into the realm of serious championship contenders. Bob
One thing I can just about 100% guarantee you: no matter how much doom and gloom you are hearing here now, within a couple months you will start to see a change in tone. More still after the draft. Come July and into camp you'll start seeing genuine optimism. You will hear about how certain players have really bulked up, making them more formidable, and how others have trimmed down, making them sleeker and faster. You'll see a few tweets with clips of guys training. You'll read a few beat writer articles quoting coaches who sound optimistic and you'll see those posted here. You'll read some optimistic-sounding quotes from players (find me one NFL player anywhere in the league who publicly expresses pessimism in April-August). You'll start to hear some more positive-sounding predictions from fans and on some Giants podcasts. A lot of it will come in the form of "if x and y can happen then z will happen" type statements, and you might even hear some outright bullish, 10-plus win type predictions.
You'll also see a lot of "7 or 8 wins, and if things click they could be in the wildcard mix" type season predictions. You'll see far fewer 3, 4, and 5 win type predictions come July/August.
Remember that every fan base in the league (collectively at least) thinks their team had a good draft. That optimism fuels summer optimism.
So I don't know that there is "no hope." There is plenty of hope and around here every year. Unfortunately, for the Giants, the hope and optimism just about always proves to have been unwarranted. But I can promise you it will still be there this spring/summer. And one of these seasons it may actually be warranted.
You ARE a
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2025, 09:06:38 AMThis post reminds me of an observation from my 35 years of volunteer work on an emergency and rescue squad. For any volunteer organization to function effectively, you need doers. Doers are the people who put in the extra time and effort to do the work that is needed for a place to run. Having sat through many monthly business meetings, as sure as there are doers, you are going to have complainers. They are the ones not doing the work but are more than happy to sit in the back of the room and criticize and put down the doers who put themselves out there.
I picked up on this dynamic early in my volunteer career. One thing I vowed was that I was going to be a doer. I would be a positive contributor and not be one of the whiners in the back of the room hurling barbs at the doers, no matter how much easier and emotionally satisfying the latter is.
BBH promised to be the BEST INFORMED fans, not the fans who are selectively ignorant to boost optimism. Information and stories are going to be brought to this forum and are not going to be censored like I am Pat Hanlon.
You are a doer, a doer of one person's agenda to continually knock Daboll and Schoen at every chance you get. Even after you promised the board you would fall in line and accept what is and basically root for improvement, you continue to put up negative threads about these guys. It is NOT what Giant fans want to see and read. If you want a well-informed board then the season is over so we need to be positive.
You just continue to post ad nasseum every article, podcast, or writer who shares your negative views,
ENOUGH ALREADY.
Quote from: LennG on January 11, 2025, 12:01:09 PMYou ARE a
You are a doer, a doer of one person's agenda to continually knock Daboll and Schoen at every chance you get. Even after you promised the board you would fall in line and accept what is and basically root for improvement, you continue to put up negative threads about these guys. It is NOT what Giant fans want to see and read. If you want a well-informed board then the season is over so we need to be positive.
You just continue to post ad nasseum every article, podcast, or writer who shares your negative views,
ENOUGH ALREADY.
It's funny. For years around these parts, anything approaching an opinion critical of Daniel Jones was met with claims of being a "negative," "pessimistic," or even "bad" Giants fan. Now that he's gone, it's open-season for anything attacking the guys who let him go (including previously scorned anonymous quotes) with a host of reasons why it's appropriate and necessary. Interesting shift in dynamic.
I think we are 6 players away at specific positions my friend.
Quote from: LennG on January 11, 2025, 12:01:09 PMYou ARE a
You are a doer, a doer of one person's agenda to continually knock Daboll and Schoen at every chance you get. Even after you promised the board you would fall in line and accept what is and basically root for improvement, you continue to put up negative threads about these guys. It is NOT what Giant fans want to see and read. If you want a well-informed board then the season is over so we need to be positive.
You just continue to post ad nasseum every article, podcast, or writer who shares your negative views,
ENOUGH ALREADY.
I am the opposite of you. I am a man of truth and honor. I am not going for your group-think demands for censorship of anything YOU don't want to read. I am not going to lie about you as you like about me and about Ted (for the crime of saying things you don't like or agree with). The TRUTH (you should try it sometime) is I post all articles, good and bad. Since Pat Hanlon bullied the press for the month leading up to Mara's decision, the press is not reporting all the negative stuff they couldn't run with before Mara made his decision. So, between Mara's contradictory and poorly thought-out presser and the freedom to finally report on the ugly stuff that had been swept under the rug, there is a flood of negative stories.
If I find a positive story, I will (your vile lies about me notwithstanding); I will do as I always do and bring it here to the forum because I have an agenda outside of keeping everyone well informed and promoting good discussions about the team and football. I will tell you now: I am not going to get your permission over what Tweets, stories, or information I share with the group.
PS- If I am hiding all these positive stories like you claim, you are certainly free to post them yourself. Plus ESPN is not some obscure news source, as you claim.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 11, 2025, 12:13:44 PMIt's funny. For years around these parts, anything approaching an opinion critical of Daniel Jones was met with claims of being a "negative," "pessimistic," or even "bad" Giants fan. Now that he's gone, it's open-season for anything attacking the guys who let him go (including previously scorned anonymous quotes) with a host of reasons why it's appropriate and necessary. Interesting shift in dynamic.
If funny, you had no problem with all the negativity toward Gettleman. Hell, you even joined in. Now, suddenly, you and Len want to censor anything negative that has been REPORTED about Schoen and Daboll. Now, that is a REAL shift in dynamics. Should I get a group PM going where I get your and Len's permission before I post?
theres always hope. the problem is...theres no clear path.
We have a GM and a coach that are 2-7 away from being fired. You have a top 3 pick, with no clear cut elite QB prospects. You have few if any good free agent QB options. You have a DC who should probably be fired. But who would want to come here? New regimes install their own people, that goes for players and coaches.
Its not impossible, but super unlikely that we grab a qb that will be an instant franchise changing player.
We have a few good pieces to build around, but our draft picks ALWAYS seem to get worse year after year. We have 2 top 10 picks from the same draft that have been mild-major disappointments.
We have no identity other than losing. We have no depth at WR, CB, OL, DT... we are completely devoid of talent and don't have a coach who can patch things up when we get hurt.
With all that being said, there is always hope. Sometimes things just click. Realistically upgrading the qb situation is at the top of the list. Many of us have said jones isnt THE problem (obviously a large part of it), but also certainly was not the answer. Once we do this, we're maybe a quarter of the way there. The oline looked competent before the injuries last year. Keep building there. Tracy looks to be our starter for next year and i'm good with it. Give him some holes to work worth, and some time for whoever the QB will be.
Get an OC that can actually get these guys to execute and stop doing THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If i see one more bubble screen to wandale that goes for 2 yards i'm going to lose it. Predictable, boring, lifeless offense. It needs to change.
TLDR, yes there is hope, but no easy clear path. It's going to be a while. Strap in.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 11, 2025, 11:46:16 AMOne thing I can just about 100% guarantee you: no matter how much doom and gloom you are hearing here now, within a couple months you will start to see a change in tone. More still after the draft. Come July and into camp you'll start seeing genuine optimism. You will hear about how certain players have really bulked up, making the more formidable, and how others have trimmed down, making them sleeker and faster. You'll see a few tweets with clips of guys training. You'll read a few beat writer articles quoting coaches who sound optimistic and you'll see those posted here. You'll read some optimistic-sounding quotes from players (find me one NFL player anywhere in the league who publicly expresses pessimism in April-August). You'll start to hear some more positive-sounding predictions from fans and on some Giants podcasts. A lot of it will come in the form of "if x and y can happen then z will happen" type statements, and you might even hear some outright bullish, 10-plus win type predictions.
You'll also see a lot of "7 or 8 wins, and if things click they could be in the wildcard mix" type season predictions. You'll see far fewer 3, 4, and 5 win type predictions come July/August.
Remember that every fan base in the league (collectively at least) thinks their team had a good draft. That optimism fuels summer optimism.
So I don't know that there is "no hope." There is plenty of hope and around here every year. Unfortunately, for the Giants, the hope and optimism just about always proves to have been unwarranted. But I can promise you it will still be there this spring/summer. And one of these seasons it may actually be warranted.
I agree about that dynamic. I will share this: I was pretty optimistic going into the season. The crash and burn of the Vikings game hit me hard. I am actively going to guard against being that optimistic again. I can't go through another letdown like that. I mean, I spent all those hours hobbling on crutches to get to camp. There were hours of prep work studying players before appearing with Bobby Skinner. For what? To have the season start out horribly and be over before Halloween? There was a month where I was hardly even posting because I just didn't feel like talking about the team
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2025, 12:54:10 PMIf funny, you had no problem with all the negativity toward Gettleman. Hell, you even joined in. Now, suddenly, you and Len want to censor anything negative that has been REPORTED about Schoen and Daboll. Now, that is a REAL shift in dynamics
Sorry Rich, but you've missed the point entirely. I'm
always okay with criticism, hence why I was critical of one of the worst GMs. And for years when that criticism was leveled at Jones, the response from many of his defenders was to (attempt to) diminish the poster. I notice you don't actually disagree, but instead try to accuse me of being hypocritical. Thanks, but no dice.
I also haven't asked for you to "censor" anything, so it's a disingenuous and baseless attack. But lumping people together and attacking things they never said isn't new behavior.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 11, 2025, 01:10:43 PMSorry Rich, but you've missed the point entirely. I'm always okay with criticism, hence why I was critical of one of the worst GMs. And for years when that criticism was leveled at Jones, the response from many of his defenders was to (attempt to) diminish the poster. I notice you don't actually disagree, but instead try to accuse me of being hypocritical. Thanks, but no dice.
I also haven't asked for you to "censor" anything, so it's a disingenuous and baseless attack. But lumping people together and attacking things they never said isn't new behavior.
The problem was there was never any censorship of either reports on Daniel Jones nor was there an effort to silence negative commentary. There was a lot of bullying from the people posting the negative commentary directed at those who didn't share the view, but there was never the sort of naked effort to censor this board or control what is said or thought. That is something quite new and, frankly, isn't going to fly. Everyone here is entitled to voice their opinion regardless of who disagrees with it.
As for your other claims, you didn't directly support Len's efforts for censorship and thought control, you indirectly supported it by taking cheap, factly false claims directed at me for opposing said censorship. You can't inject yourself in an argument over censorship and side with those trying to censor the board and then claim you are for freedom of speech and thought.
Someone on IG posted a video showing team records if the one-score wins were reversed.
Pretty interesting to see the Giants record despite how bad they've been all year.
I think that's cause for hope and optimism.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250111/8f53b5c79f3f42727b7c6be582bd1e4d.jpg)
Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2025, 05:00:04 PMSomeone on IG posted a video showing team records if the one-score wins were reversed.
Pretty interesting to see the Giants record despite how bad they've been all year.
I think that's cause for hope and optimism.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250111/8f53b5c79f3f42727b7c6be582bd1e4d.jpg)
Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk
A reflection on the coaching.
Quote from: katkavage on January 11, 2025, 05:22:25 PMA reflection on the coaching.
Partially on the coaching.
Nabers and Tracy both had over 1000 yards from scrimmage. A better QB helps to put more points on the board. A single TD flips those losses to wins.
Quote from: T200 on January 11, 2025, 05:00:04 PMSomeone on IG posted a video showing team records if the one-score wins were reversed.
Pretty interesting to see the Giants record despite how bad they've been all year.
I think that's cause for hope and optimism.
Tim: Not really, IMO. In doing this exercise, we should not count games in which the Giants would have lost by two scores if the winning team hadn't "permitted" them to run out the clock, scoring points that changed a 2-score game into a 1-score game. In at least a few games, the Giants were losing by two scores with about two minutes or so remaining, during which they managed (with the "permission" of the opponent) to score meaningless points. Bob
I don't think there's no hope at all.
On paper the schedule is brutal but I found Tim's one score game post to be interesting. It's usually the sort of cheerleading and points for optimism that fans like to hold onto during the close season.
But there are points to have some hope about:
1. The last draft did elicit some key contributors. Hopefully (that word again) that repeats this year
2. Linked to point 1, I think Nabers deserve a spot on his own - he's going to be an absolute elite receiver in this league. His numbers are outstanding for a rookie. They look even better when you consider the quality of QB play he received last year. Arguably, those 4 were the worst in the league - they certainly would have been in terms of points scored if the back-up QB didn't have the near unexplainably blow-out of the Colts.
3. Dexter Lawrence is a monster
4. Brian Burns was as expected - not quite elite but still very, very good. A team bereft of talent should not scoff at such production.
5. They finally have an answer on Daniel Jones - this will not be hanging over them going into the season. Mistakes were made, hopefully (again that word), management have learned from this error when it comes to self-evaluation and it's not replicated. However, the Giants have a blank slate to start again at the most important position on offense and I think the long-term aspect to that is exciting.
With those 5 factors in mind, I am optimistic about the future. That being said, I can understand the other side of that coin and be unhappy - especially with the pabalble disdain around the coaching and management (and the accompanying decisions they made).
I just disagree with them.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2025, 10:10:53 AMTim: Not really, IMO. In doing this exercise, we should not count games in which the Giants would have lost by two scores if the winning team hadn't "permitted" them to run out the clock scoring points that changed a 2-score game into a 1-score game. In at least a few games, the Giants were losing by two scores with about two minutes or so remaining, during which they managed (with the "permission" of the opponent) to score meaningless points. Bob
That's an excellent point, Bob. I think that adds more work to a basic exercise. As it is, it only takes a few minutes to glance at the scores and flip the win and loss.
In your exercise, they would have to watch each game to see how they played out and determine if the leading team let off the gas.
I'm hopefully the Giants lame duck coach makes a few coaching changes before too long . ....havent heard of anything on that front yet ...has anyone?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Woody on January 12, 2025, 11:34:41 AMI'm hopefully the Giants lame duck coach makes a few coaching changes before too long . ....havent heard of anything on that front yet ...has anyone?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
He can't really. No one is coming to the Giants for a lame duck regime. Hard to have hope. Its not like mediocre coaches and evaluators suddenly turn into something they just are not. I'll be optimistic next year with, I hope, a better regime.
Quote from: katkavage on January 12, 2025, 05:07:35 PMHe can't really. No one is coming to the Giants for a lame duck regime. Hard to have hope. Its not like mediocre coaches and evaluators suddenly turn into something they just are not. I'll be optimistic next year with, I hope, a better regime.
That's the problem with having an owner who runs his mouth without considering the impact his statements have.
More than anything, I truly wish he would learn to just STFU.
I went over the BBI this morning to see if there were any stories of news I missed. Well, according to
@LennG at least 3/4 of the posters over at BBI have an "Agenda" because compared to the overwhelming negativity over at BBI, this place is absolutely Pollyanna. :laugh:
Between Mara, retaining Schoen and Daboll (and apparently Bowen), not having a clear path to solving the QB need, and the terrible record, I have never seen such a pessimistic tone among fans, players, pundits, and reporters. Even Michael Strahan (the NYG cheerleader since retiring) is taking his shots.
https://x.com/awthentik/status/1878552114349109746?s=46&t=EbkGrGcccXeBlrmNxtAW9g
Schoen and Daboll will have to get either extremely lucky and pull off some sort of miracle, or 2025 is going to be one rough and bumpy ride.
As comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:
Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.
GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.
Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.
None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.
Quote from: londonblue on January 13, 2025, 09:59:09 AMAs comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:
Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.
GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.
Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.
None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.
Thanks for sharing that, LB.
It all falls in line with how I view them as well.
Quote from: londonblue on January 13, 2025, 09:59:09 AMAs comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:
Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.
GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.
Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.
None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.
Thank you, Neal. This sort of raw, uncensored assessment from another team is, in my opinion, some of the best information we can get on the state of the team.
As you said, it is less than encouraging. It's typical Giants' luck that the respected person is the one that the team appears to be losing.
I am not the least surprised that the league considers Schoen's appearance on HK a complete disaster. While HK was only a glimpse, those who know how NFL front offices are supposed to operate recognized that the Giant's front office doesn't operate like a good one.
I guess the real questions are these:
1) Can Daboll adjust his coaching style, ala Coughlin, to reduce or minimize the weaknesses discussed?
2) How does Schoen start working smarter, especially after losing his best advisor?
3) Will Mara ever crack down on that family back channel?
Quote from: T200 on January 13, 2025, 10:13:32 AMThanks for sharing that, LB.
It all falls in line with how I view them as well.
Tim,
If you view the GM and HC in the way that other front offices in the league view them (via Neal's excellent post), what strengths or things you believe Schoen and Daboll can realistically change about themselves led you to believe they are capable of turning things around and leading the team to success?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2025, 10:43:55 AM2) How does Schoen start working smarter, especially after losing his best advisor?
Rich: I missed this news. Who is the "best" advisor of whom you are speaking? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 13, 2025, 10:51:29 AMRich: I missed this news. Who is the "best" advisor of whom you are speaking? Bob
If you read the outstanding post by
@londonblue, they mention their respect for Cowden, who is currently a senior advisor. The reports are he is going to rejoin Vrabel in New England
Quote from: londonblue on January 13, 2025, 09:59:09 AMAs comes up from time to time I have a family member working in an AFC franchise. The perspective within the league as he hears it is:
Ownership: give people the resources, let them make the decisions but a bit closer to the day to day than is ideal with family members in football roles. Overall better respected in the league than by our fans and seen as a good employer if you are experienced and able to manage/shut down the family back channels.
GM: inexperienced and naive but put together a decent front office. Hard Knocks was terrible for his credibility and will be tough to come back from in terms of both peer and player respect so he needs a really impressive spring and a bit of a charm offensive in the media to have much chance of longer-term survival. Hiring Cowden as a sounding board was smart, showing some self-awareness. If Cowden goes he needs to be replaced by someone respected.
Coach: a little immature, inconsistent and clearly uncomfortable with the media so he seems to be miscast as a HC/CEO when his strength is designing an O and developing QB 'hands-on'. Nice guy but his volatility and inconsistency makes him tough to work with and to play for, chaotic rather than calming. Treatment of Kafka played badly as he is well respected. His staff is not highly regarded bar a couple of veteran coaches and he has no real personal pull, made worse by perceived lame duck status which may explain us seemingly keeping Bowen.
None of that is exactly shocking and nor is it super encouraging but I get the impression if fans were rating them the consensus would be Daboll is our least bad point but the NFL perception (from my family members contacts and interactions so just one perspective) is that he is arguably our weakest link in his current role.
Intersting insight - thanks for sharing.
It's similar to what many have been saying for months. I think very few people are entirely happy with the performance of both of them.
However, another strong draft from Schoen and those concerns will mitigate.
Dabs I'm slightly more concerned about but outside of Vrabel, who was never coming here, I didn't see a suitable replacement on the market.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2025, 10:45:32 AMTim,
If you view the GM and HC in the way that other front offices in the league view them (via Neal's excellent post), what strengths or things you believe Schoen and Daboll can realistically change about themselves led you to believe they are capable of turning things around and leading the team to success?
Good question, Rich.
GM: He's still learning how to deal with Mara and the Meddlers. I think he understands what he's dealing with and has made changes in how he will deal with them going forward. I think he has ammunition to push back against Mara and the confidence to do so. Hard Knocks was not a good look on him but I also think people place way too much importance on what they saw in a limited context.
HC: He has more work to do than Schoen. As much as I defend him, I'm not 100% sold on him. My defense of him is primarily based on his not having a legit opportunity to demonstrate what his offense can do with a legit QB. His play calling has been suspect in too many games regardless of the QB. I don't like that he took over play calling but I understand why he did it. I do feel good in that he's not afraid to make changes to his staff where he feels it's necessary, regardless of the relationship he has with his staff, be it friend or foe.
With Jones gone, they are free from the excuse and boat anchor that primarily held their team back. This is 100% their team. How successful they are next season will be hugely based on their QB and the overall health of the team. Without knowing who they will get at QB, I can't say how confident I am. Ask me after FA and the draft. The other big unknown is what they do for an offensive coordinator.
There's hope, of course there is hope
No one expected the 11-5 trip to the playoffs in 2016
Nor did they expect the 9-7-1 season ending in the divisional round of playoffs in 22
Sooner or later more will go right than go wrong
Go Giants !!
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 13, 2025, 10:59:11 AMIntersting insight - thanks for sharing.
It's similar to what many have been saying for months. I think very few people are entirely happy with the performance of both of them.
However, another strong draft from Schoen and those concerns will mitigate.
Dabs I'm slightly more concerned about but outside of Vrabel, who was never coming here, I didn't see a suitable replacement on the market.
Yup, I have been saying all of this for weeks (and in some cases months)
I think there could be some validity in your suggestion that there wasn't a clear upgrade to Daboll. One of the things that was unusual in this coaching cycle was the large number of head coaching interviews teams were conducted. To me, that indicates that teams are not thrilled with who is out there. If there were impressive prospects, you would expect to see fewer interviews because if you know who you like (and if needed, you do your Rooney rule interviews), the rest of the interviews are a waste of time. If none of the prospects really excite you, you will tend to conduct more interviews, hoping to get lucky and have someone hit it out of the park in their interview
Neal,
Thanks for sharing that. One take away for me is about the ownership and the ability to shut down/manage that family back channel. Almost sounds like a GM would have to have some clout to be able to handle that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2025, 10:54:13 AMIf you read the outstanding post by @londonblue, they mention their respect for Cowden, who is currently a senior advisor. The reports are he is going to rejoin Vrabel in New England
Rich: Thanks. It's one report. I already saw the info about Cowden & figured it might be someone else. Bob
One day Mighty will remember Neil not Neal 🤣
The league hive mind apparently thought Tennessee messed up not making Cowden GM. Subsequent events did nothing to dissuade them. Sometimes your reputation benefits from the misery of others it seems.
Quote from: londonblue on January 13, 2025, 11:33:16 AMOne day Mighty will remember Neil not Neal 🤣
The league hive mind apparently thought Tennessee messed up not making Cowden GM. Subsequent events did nothing to dissuade them. Sometimes your reputation benefits from the misery of others it seems.
london: My brother-in-law's name is also Neil and most people are apt to make the same mistake because I believe it's the less-common way to spell it. Bob
Quote from: londonblue on January 13, 2025, 11:33:16 AMOne day Mighty will remember Neil not Neal 🤣
The league hive mind apparently thought Tennessee messed up not making Cowden GM. Subsequent events did nothing to dissuade them. Sometimes your reputation benefits from the misery of others it seems.
:doh: Redfaced
Neal, Neil,
From what I have heard, the Titans hired Ran Carthon (son of the former Giant with the same last name). In Carton's first year, there was a power struggle between Ran and Vrabrel, with the owner siding with Carthon and firing Vrabel. Fast forward a year, and Vrabrel was the hottest HC candidate, and the owner was firing the GM she had sided with the year before.
While that doesn't prove that Cowden was the better choice, it shows the alternative was a big mistake. Interestingly enough, a similar argument could be made for the Giants that was made for the Titans. The Giants interviewed Cowden for the GM position and opted to hire Joe Schoen instead.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 13, 2025, 11:35:15 AMlondon: My brother-in-law's name is also Neil and most people are apt to make the same mistake because I believe it's the less-common way to spell it. Bob
Thanks for the assist, Bob. I have to own this one. Neal has corrected me before (I think it could be more than once), and I failed
Quote from: babywhales on January 13, 2025, 11:12:47 AMThere's hope, of course there is hope
No one expected the 11-5 trip to the playoffs in 2016
Nor did they expect the 9-7-1 season ending in the divisional round of playoffs in 22
Sooner or later more will go right than go wrong
Go Giants !!
2016 was the result of Jerry Reese spending like a drunken sailor
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2025, 11:43:25 AM2016 was the result of Jerry Reese spending like a drunken sailor
and in many ways 2022 was the money DG spent irresponsibly; nevertheless, few people say Mcadoo or Daboll taking the team to the playoffs in their first season.
Side note, this is exactly why the roster comparison of Schoen upon arrival 1st to current year is misguided.
A better comparison is roster and cap standing upon arrival to present.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 13, 2025, 11:38:39 AM:doh: Redfaced
Neal,
Rich: I forgot to mention in my prior post... you still got it wrong in your post replying to london's post mentioning that you got it wrong. lol It has in "I" in it. Sorry to belabor the point. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 13, 2025, 12:16:30 PMRich: I forgot to mention in my prior post... you still got it wrong in your post replying to london's post mentioning that you got it wrong. lol It has in "I" in it. Sorry to belabor the point. Bob
:doh: :doh: Redfaced Redfaced
There always is hope but that in itself may be of little consolation to Giants fans despite the four Lombardi wins in five Super Bowl appearances as in the 16 SB years prior to the Young/Parcells era the Giants were 45 games under .500 and coincidentally since the end of the Reese/Coughlin era 12 years ago, they are again 45 games under.
In any event, let's direct our hope toward not having to wait 4 more years before Our Heroes will again become a steadily winning team, and one to be reckoned with. ~X(
Cheers!