Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 02:57:46 PMThen either doesn't know how to read defenses or he's just a check-down maverick.

The defense gave him open receivers. He rejected and offered up his own gift.

If the coaching staff is telling him to get the ball quick to prevent sacks and turnovers - we need a new coachin staff then. We dont know what goes on in meetings and what is said. So to play the blame game on Jones, Kafka, or Daboll is unfair when it comes to this.

And I am not going to rehash missed WRs. He has missed some this year. So has Mahomes. So has Allen. So has Ridder. Its much more common than people think. The problem is our offense and defense is so bad - every single mistake is magnified. So Jones missing Waller (still an inexcusable play) and missing Robinson mean just so much more.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:26 PMCampbell is running the underneath routes which Jones has a habit of going to rather than downfield.  What Jones needs to do is anticipate and break that habit of going to the underneath route.

This was one of the criticisms of him coming out of college playing in a half field first read system that he wasn't one to anticipate plays but rather he would go to his easy read.

Or a better yet - dont let Campbell run the routes. Or even a much better idea - dont play him. That eliminates the problem right off the bat.

Campbell is a very, very poor player. Why he is on the field makes very little sense.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 02:54:15 PMI am not sure I agree with that. I believe he is being told to read the defense and take what is given to him.

And this is a subject nobody is right or wrong about. However, he needs to be told to focus on players that can actually be made. Paris Cambell should never be an option unless he is the last option.

You may have missed these earlier sonlet me repost. How is this reading defense? How is this taking what is given to him?

As much as we want to call some of these players busts and disappointments, it may just be the QB holding some of those guys back at this point.

https://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1709237407844094408?s=61

https://twitter.com/_willnyr_/status/1709056244567200167?s=20

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:45 PMIf the coaching staff is telling him to get the ball quick to prevent sacks and turnovers - we need a new coachin staff then. We dont know what goes on in meetings and what is said. So to play the blame game on Jones, Kafka, or Daboll is unfair when it comes to this.

And I am not going to rehash missed WRs. He has missed some this year. So has Mahomes. So has Allen. So has Ridder. Its much more common than people think. The problem is our offense and defense is so bad - every single mistake is magnified. So Jones missing Waller (still an inexcusable play) and missing Robinson mean just so much more.

The thing is getting rid of the ball quick is not what he's doing it's who and what he's going to which is the check down or underneath easy route.  Again this is what he did in college.  5 years later he's still doing it.  This is the third coaching staff he's played with since he's come into the league.  That is more than most QB's that are as unproductive as Jones are get in this NFL.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:07:41 PMOr a better yet - dont let Campbell run the routes. Or even a much better idea - dont play him. That eliminates the problem right off the bat.

Campbell is a very, very poor player. Why he is on the field makes very little sense.

If it's Campbell or someone else running the routes it's the same result another check down or underneath throw for minimal gain.

I've already said the Waller play was a horrible read, decision, and throw and there was no excusing it.

The Robinson play was missed. But I am not going to sit here and try to break down what Jones's is thinking like others are. Its a very complicated position and they are not robots. Its unfortunate he missed these plays and it did cost us at the end.

But there were many others plays but many others that contributed to the loss as well.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:14:10 PMI've already said the Waller play was a horrible read, decision, and throw and there was no excusing it.

The Robinson play was missed. But I am not going to sit here and try to break down what Jones's is thinking like others are. Its a very complicated position and they are not robots. Its unfortunate he missed these plays and it did cost us at the end.

But there were many others plays but many others that contributed to the loss as well.

These aren't one offs these are just part of a pattern with Daniel Jones and have been through out his entire professional career.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:45 PMIf the coaching staff is telling him to get the ball quick to prevent sacks and turnovers - we need a new coachin staff then. We dont know what goes on in meetings and what is said. So to play the blame game on Jones, Kafka, or Daboll is unfair when it comes to this.

Welllll... if they're telling him to get the ball out quick to prevent sacks and turnovers... he didn't do that on the pick-6. Annnnnddddd... that same pass should have been to Waller, NOT resulting in a pick-6. I know you acknowledged that particular play was 100% on Jones.

One last 'aaaaannnnnddd'... did you see Daboll throw the tablet after showing Jones what he missed??? Yeah, he wasn't coached to do that.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:15:29 PMThese aren't one offs these are just part of a pattern with Daniel Jones and have been through out his entire professional career.

And so is having bad WRs and OLs as well. If you want to replace Jones - thats fine. I am not trying to change your opinion on him. You have more than enough evidence and material to stake your opinion.

But it is my opinion that there are so many issues with this team, that people claim as "excuses" are not excuses. We havent had a good OL since 2010. We had maybe 1-2 above average defenses duuring the last decade. Our coaching has been some of the worst in the league, which definitely includes this year. We have had bad STs for a long time as well.

All these things matter as well. Thats my point. We can exchnage Jones for Mahomes - and I would not feel comfortable this is a playoff team. Would we have better QB play? No doubt. But would Mahomes be one of the great QBs ever? Not in my opinion.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:14:10 PMI've already said the Waller play was a horrible read, decision, and throw and there was no excusing it.

The Robinson play was missed. But I am not going to sit here and try to break down what Jones's is thinking like others are. Its a very complicated position and they are not robots. Its unfortunate he missed these plays and it did cost us at the end.

But there were many others plays but many others that contributed to the loss as well.

None of us knows what his thinking is like. However, there is enough film of him to understand and see his tendencies. He has become predictable.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:07:41 PMOr a better yet - dont let Campbell run the routes. Or even a much better idea - dont play him. That eliminates the problem right off the bat.

Campbell is a very, very poor player. Why he is on the field makes very little sense.

Do you know how many snaps Campbell got last night? 23 (31%).  Do you know where that ranked among the Giants WR's?  5th.  Slayton (88%), Robinson (64%), Hyatt (60%) and Hodgins (37%) all had more snaps than Campbell.  The only receiver who had fewer snaps that Campbell was Shepard.

So this idea that Campbell is getting all of these snaps and heavily involved in the offense is simply not true.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:19:46 PMAnd so is having bad WRs and OLs as well. If you want to replace Jones - thats fine. I am not trying to change your opinion on him. You have more than enough evidence and material to stake your opinion.

But it is my opinion that there are so many issues with this team, that people claim as "excuses" are not excuses. We havent had a good OL since 2010. We had maybe 1-2 above average defenses duuring the last decade. Our coaching has been some of the worst in the league, which definitely includes this year. We have had bad STs for a long time as well.

All these things matter as well. Thats my point. We can exchnage Jones for Mahomes - and I would not feel comfortable this is a playoff team. Would we have better QB play? No doubt. But would Mahomes be one of the great QBs ever? Not in my opinion.

If the Giants had Justin Herbert last night they win that game. 

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 03:18:53 PMWelllll... if they're telling him to get the ball out quick to prevent sacks and turnovers... he didn't do that on the pick-6. Annnnnddddd... that same pass should have been to Waller, NOT resulting in a pick-6. I know you acknowledged that particular play was 100% on Jones.

One last 'aaaaannnnnddd'... did you see Daboll throw the tablet after showing Jones what he missed??? Yeah, he wasn't coached to do that.

Ill respond to the Daboll comment. I dont give a rat's behind what Daboll thinks this year. We have been underprepared, undisciplined, and embarrassed for 14 quarters. He has been an disaster this year in every sense of the word. He has no room to talk.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:21:38 PMDo you know how many snaps Campbell got last night? 23 (31%).  Do you know where that ranked among the Giants WR's?  5th.  Slayton (88%), Robinson (64%), Hyatt (60%) and Hodgins (37%) all had more snaps than Campbell.  The only receiver who had fewer snaps that Campbell was Shepard.

So this idea that Campbell is getting all of these snaps and heavily involved in the offense is simply not true.

If the Giants had Justin Herbert last night they win that game.

Campbell played 23 snaps and had 5 targets. Thats my point. Like I said, its not right. Slayton is useless and plays more than anyone else? Thats my point. Dont play them. They are unproductive.

And I am not going to address the Herbert comment. Its nothing but heresay.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:25:11 PMCampbell played 23 snaps and had 5 targets. Thats my point. Like I said, its not right. Slayton is useless and plays more than anyone else? Thats my point. Dont play them. They are unproductive.

And I am not going to address the Herbert comment. Its nothing but heresay.

Campbell is targeted because the Giants have him running simple underneath routes designed to be check downs not actual routes that can go for larger gains.  Which means if it's someone else running those routes it's the same result.  If it's Shepard in there instead of Campbell on the pick six the result is exactly the same.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:19:46 PMAnd so is having bad WRs and OLs as well. If you want to replace Jones - thats fine. I am not trying to change your opinion on him. You have more than enough evidence and material to stake your opinion.

But it is my opinion that there are so many issues with this team, that people claim as "excuses" are not excuses. We havent had a good OL since 2010. We had maybe 1-2 above average defenses duuring the last decade. Our coaching has been some of the worst in the league, which definitely includes this year. We have had bad STs for a long time as well.

All these things matter as well. Thats my point. We can exchnage Jones for Mahomes - and I would not feel comfortable this is a playoff team. Would we have better QB play? No doubt. But would Mahomes be one of the great QBs ever? Not in my opinion.

You addressed a few different things in your post.

When people say "excuses for Jones" it's not to ignore the fact that there are a myriad of issues with this team. Just about every person on this site readily acknowledges that. The "excuses" part comes in only when discussing Jones.

- His supporting cast isn't NFL-caliber
- He doesn't have time to throw
- He doesn't have a #1 receiver
- His receivers don't get open
- He's running for his life

But here's the thing: he has had games where all of those listed above were true and present and yet he still played well in spite of those hindrances. The problem is he only has a handful of those games where he overcomes the limitations.

Jones has physical talent. He can buy time with his legs. One of the big differences between Jones and Mahomes is that Mahomes uses his legs to buy time to find an open receiver, usually way down field. Jones buys time to find a short outlet. We wouldn't be a playoff team with Mahomes in this situation, but we also wouldn't have a question mark at the QB position.