Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kartanoman on February 19, 2024, 08:32:52 AMYou've got my vote, as somewhere in there rings the tune, "Fix the damn line!"

Peace!

Kart,

Thank you so much for agreeing with me, your words are very kind and I'm so glad we agree, fix that line!

This tells a different story:

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.

I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.

In 2022 Jones had only thrown 2 20 yards passes halfway through November. So no, a line is not going to change the way he plays at this point.

Also there is no qb coming out the next couple of years with any interest, so if you wait and Jones fails again then you would have passed on the opportunity to move forward as a franchise and instead continue to do the same broken thing.

So what we draft some more guys to wait 3 years to see if they pan out on the line, continuing to waste draft capital seems like madness to me... especially since we'll just keep losing in the meantime.

You can both draft a Qb and fix the line at the same time, it's not an either/or proposition.

I don't see why we wouldng draft our future Qb now, while there are actually really good qbs available in the draft and just get 2 guards and a swing in FA. There are a ton of really good tackles and guards in FA so why wouldn't we do that?

Schoen said the quarterback position would be addressed this offseason, so we are getting a guy regardless, why not have it be THE guy and finish the line once and for all in FA to hit the ground running and not have to suffer through Jones throwing 3 yard outs and having other teams make fun of him for another entire season.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:40:25 AMThis tells a different story:

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.

I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.

You need to look at both stats, both the time to pressure and the percent pressure

A think D Jones is ruined
During the 49ers game
He looked rattled wihtout that much pressure on him
I dont blame him but he threw it a little.sooner than he had to

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:40:25 AMThis tells a different story:

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php

Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.

I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.

Ed: I understand, but switch Kelce w/either of our TE's & then we can make comparisons between Mahomes & Jones.

It's always a combination of a lot of factors, as you know, and the Giants just don't have a spark plug.

But even with a spark plug, the OL performance to start last year would have negated a spark plug.

Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:49:54 AMYou need to look at both stats, both the time to pressure and the percent pressure

From the stats off of the same site.

I admire your courage to watch those games again, sxd, but I remember them well without having to re-watch them. They were totally unprepared to start the season in pretty much every aspect of the game. The coaches did a miserable job early on. The offensive line, after Thomas got hurt, was as bad as it gets. And the QB did nothing to rise above the fray. All these things are true. The GM needs to fix the line and the QB position. If you think a middling QB will suddenly become elite or even franchise status with better line play is being naive. He might return to middling form which is better than what was seen last year, but middling won't cut it. They Giants have to do better.

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 19, 2024, 11:37:22 AMEd: I understand, but switch Kelce w/either of our TE's & then we can make comparisons between Mahomes & Jones.

It's always a combination of a lot of factors, as you know, and the Giants just don't have a spark plug.

But even with a spark plug, the OL performance to start last year would have negated a spark plug.

Bob

Bob, you have to look at the entire picture, so to that point I agree but, Kelce performs because Mahomes performs. The KC Offense moves the ball also due to scheme and protections. We have to put Daboll and Kafka in the equations also, compared to Reid. So many times Jalin Hyatt was open and he never got the ball by all three QB's. I wonder how Slayton would have faired on KC. Likely a 1000 yard Receiver. See the stats I produced to Rich.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:08:40 AMThat isn't exactly a "fact"; in fact, it's not even effectively true.



CINO
@sjs0816
Tyrod & Devito had a completely different Offensive line.
I don't know why this is hard

DJs oline for majority of his games
LT: Ezuedu LG:Lemiex/Mayfield C:Bredeson RG:McKethan RT:Neal/Mayfield

Tyrod/Devito Oline
LT:Thomas LG:Pugh C:JMS RG:Bredeson RT:Phillips

These different lines led to very different times for pressure to appear and how often pressure appeared.



https://x.com/sjs0816/status/1758581458032054504?s=20

Mighty,

This is an excellent stat, thank you for sharing.

I'd also add the competition DJ faced in the first 5 games was intense compared to Tyrod and Devito.

49ers - super bowl appearance
Cowboys - playoff team
Dolphins- playoff team
Seahawks- Tough team

That has to factor into also why he was pressured so much, going up against two of the top five defenses doesn't help.

Sometimes it is more than just stats. Jones has been here 5 years now and he will be here for one more. In the time he has been here, has he really ever looked like a QB we can go all the way with? He has had some decent games and a good rookie season, but ever since then, we have read posts like this over and over. I am not saying they aren't without merit, but it is looking at a fraction of Jones's career and not the entire full length of it. QWe have heard all the excuses, no OL, no WRs no good OC, but the fact is Jones has underperformed for several coaches, some of whom have the quality of QB guru. Again, I am not saying Jones cannot be productive with a KC OL, I think any QB can, even our scrubs, but the fact is Jones is a neck injury away from retiring and is coming off a devastating injury (especially for a QB who needs to use his legs).
What is wrong with drafting another QB and letting things play out? We have seen other teams who have a decent QB in place, still go out and draft another. Look at the Eagles, they had what they felt were 2 decent enough QBs, and yet when Hurts was available, they scooped him up.
Again, you make some good points, but we may never be in the position again to get a decent enough young QB, Jones still has the same faults he always ahs had, staring down his main WR, even through coach after coach. That will never change. Yes a #1 WR will help, but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

Dave,

With you on DJ all the way. Some of the logic for him is like putting lipstick on a pig. And that pork pie we have to pass on.

 

Quote from: LennG on February 19, 2024, 02:02:58 PMSometimes it is more than just stats. Jones has been here 5 years now and he will be here for one more. In the time he has been here, has he really ever looked like a QB we can go all the way with? He has had some decent games and a good rookie season, but ever since then, we have read posts like this over and over. I am not saying they aren't without merit, but it is looking at a fraction of Jones's career and not the entire full length of it. QWe have heard all the excuses, no OL, no WRs no good OC, but the fact is Jones has underperformed for several coaches, some of whom have the quality of QB guru. Again, I am not saying Jones cannot be productive with a KC OL, I think any QB can, even our scrubs, but the fact is Jones is a neck injury away from retiring and is coming off a devastating injury (especially for a QB who needs to use his legs).
What is wrong with drafting another QB and letting things play out? We have seen other teams who have a decent QB in place, still go out and draft another. Look at the Eagles, they had what they felt were 2 decent enough QBs, and yet when Hurts was available, they scooped him up.
Again, you make some good points, but we may never be in the position again to get a decent enough young QB, Jones still has the same faults he always ahs had, staring down his main WR, even through coach after coach. That will never change. Yes a #1 WR will help, but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

This right here. A lot want to think if we give Jones everything he can be effective but why do that after the super bowl we just watched.

Purdy a game manager but significantly better than Jones had the best RB in football, 2 elite Wrs, the #2 TE in football, best FB in football, and #2 defense in football and couldn't stop an elite Qb from winning.

Answer get an elite qb, keep drafting them until you do because that's all that matters in today's game.

Jalen Mayfield alone is enough to give D Jones some consideration. 0.0 pass-blocking grade vs. Miami.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 05:54:07 AMYour point is finding a multitude of excuses for why Jones didn't play like a competent decent QB? Tyrod outplayed him (barely) at a much less contract.

Jones is the 6th highest paid cap space player next season and has done absolutely nothing to even come close to his bonuses. What is your point?

The sooner we get rid of him, the sooner we get to a team with winning culture.

Whether you view the thread as explanation or merely an excuse, as apparently you do, it does reflect an obvious and egregious lack of support for a Giants QB having to perform behind a grossly inadequate Oline for the almost all of the past dozen years. That is not to suggest that Daniel Jones has the skill and inherent ability to be a "winning" Quarterback because as frustrating as it may be his future capability is now upon us to be settled, finally

That is a fact which perhaps was made opaque last year by what may have been poor pre- and early season preparation by Brian Daboll & Co., and then certainly by Jones's injury. But it is now made crystal clear through the exigency of current and future costs.

As a Giants fan, I can only guess what is meant by reference to "winning culture" but where this team is concerned, I can't think of anyone who works harder in the interest of positive team culture than does Daniel Jones.

I'm sure it won't surprise anyone that I gave the originating thread a "like" in endorsing the proposal that the Giants give first and foremost priority to X- Receiver and the Oline in the Draft, if not also in FA.

Cheers!