Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 18, 2024, 02:15:47 PMIf you think the naysayers on DJ are old and tiresome, wait until a year down the road and a QB like Bo Nix or Pennix, or Pratt turns out to be the second coming of Herbert...or worse, we pass on JJ and he becomes a star like Tom Brady. I can't imagine this board if DJ struggles and one of the QBs we passed on jettisons into a superstar. It won't be fun for the next decade with all the "We could have had Nix (or some other QB who grows hair on his chest and becomes a stud franchise QB). Even worse, we trade DJ, draft JJ, and DJ turns into the second coming of Brady with a good team around him and JJ sucks. Oh what fun that will be 

Ahhh...the good old, "time will tell" must be adhered to here. Draft can't get here soon enough

Ric,

How many of the Jones critics were also the same people who were advocating for the Giants to draft Sam Darnold?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.

I like Schoen but he's been burned by Jones twice and it's clear that Mara is still providing a negative influence on the roster.

I truly feel that after the playoff win against Minny, Mara, in some way, shape, or form, let Schoen know that he wanted to get a deal done to keep Jones. Some sort of compromise was made to give Schoen a reasonable out after the second year.

If Jones happens to lead this team to another playoff victory, Schoen will have a helluva time ditching Jones.

Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:25:47 PMI like Schoen but he's been burned by Jones twice and it's clear that Mara is still providing a negative influence on the roster.

I truly feel that after the playoff win against Minny, Mara, in some way, shape, or form, let Schoen know that he wanted to get a deal done to keep Jones. Some sort of compromise was made to give Schoen a reasonable out after the second year.

If Jones happens to lead this team to another playoff victory, Schoen will have a helluva time ditching Jones.

After five years, I've seen more than enough. Jones is not horrible. He's not a bust like Zach Wilson. But he's not gonna get you where you want to go either. His ceiling is maybe a 15 ranking. He can't go higher than that and if the Giants keep the status quo, there will be rookies that will be ranked higher than Jones after next year. And yes he says he had a stinger last year. And a torn ACL, which for him to even get to 100 percent will be October at the earliest. As a Giant fan, I hope for better. Simple as that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 02:18:02 PMJones outplayed the 3 Ps of support, which is really what one expects a franchise QB to do.  Coaching was adequate to above average, but protection was below average, and playmakers (in terms of receivers) were non-existent.  Despite that, in terms of the quality stats, Jones was top 10 to 12, in that range.

Out of interest, what was Barkley's stats and productions through the first 8 weeks of '22.

Whilst he doesn't fit into your 3 P's, I suspect he was pretty darn good.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 18, 2024, 03:32:26 PMOut of interest, what was Barkley's stats and productions through the first 8 weeks of '22.

Whilst he doesn't fit into your 3 P's, I suspect he was pretty darn good.

The problem with Barkley is he ran well, but he was terrible as a receiver

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 09:40:27 AMExplain

OK. All I'm saying is that should the Giants give up substantial capital to move up and take a quarterback like JJ, then the legacy of Schoen is going to reside almost solely on that move, similar to how Gettleman is linked to Jones. If Jones had turned out to be a superstar, Gettleman would be a hero. I was more making an observation about the situation, not advocating for what Schoen should or shouldn't do. That's why I asked if it would be worth it. Rest assured the folks that say "absolutely" will be there to roast Schoen if he drafts the wrong guy and gives up the farm to get him. That's just the reality of it. But who knows, maybe the folks that roast Jones today will blame the offensive line for the would be failures of his successor. Fandom is always an interesting analysis of the human condition. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:34:24 PMThe problem with Barkley is he ran well, but he was terrible as a receiver

Do you really think he was "terrible?"

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 03:31:23 PMAfter five years, I've seen more than enough. Jones is not horrible. He's not a bust like Zach Wilson. But he's not gonna get you where you want to go either. His ceiling is maybe a 15 ranking. He can't go higher than that and if the Giants keep the status quo, there will be rookies that will be ranked higher than Jones after next year. And yes he says he had a stinger last year. And a torn ACL, which for him to even get to 100 percent will be October at the earliest. As a Giant fan, I hope for better. Simple as that.

I get it.

He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.

Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 03:37:12 PMDo you really think he was "terrible?"

I think so. It's not just me, PFF gave Barkley a 58.3 receiving grade for 2022, which is pretty bad when you consider they start out with a 60.0

Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:39:43 PMI get it.

He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.

The best he gives you is playing up to the xs and os. The only time he gives you big play ability is with his running, which further exposes himself to injuries. He pocket awareness is poor too. He gets surprised by the back end pressure way too often.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 18, 2024, 03:44:59 PMI think so. It's not just me, PFF gave Barkley a 58.3 receiving grade for 2022, which is pretty bad when you consider they start out with a 60.0

But is he a bad route runner or can he just not catch? I never liked the way he was used as a receiver. Way too many third downs where he was expected to catch a dump off and then run over a guy or make a guy miss, often when everyone in North America knew he was getting the ball.

Quote from: TONKA56 on April 18, 2024, 03:50:54 PMBut is he a bad route runner or can he just not catch? I never liked the way he was used as a receiver. Way too many third downs where he was expected to catch a dump off and then run over a guy or make a guy miss, often when everyone in North America knew he was getting the ball.

I think the best way to describe it is that Barkley fights the ball rather than catching it (he wasn't like that in his early years in the league).  Because he is fighting it rather than catching it, his YAC is negatively impacted.

Quote from: T200 on April 18, 2024, 03:39:43 PMI get it.

He does just enough to give hope but lacks the supporting cast to elevate the team. QB Hell.

That right there. Unless you are the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, it's just not gonna happen with Jones. Go through his career and look how many games where he put the team on his shoulders and beat a real good team. (And I can hear the chorus of excuses blowing in the wind).

Quote from: katkavage on April 18, 2024, 04:00:56 PMThat right there. Unless you are the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens, it's just not gonna happen with Jones. Go through his career and look how many games where he put the team on his shoulders and beat a real good team. (And I can hear the chorus of excuses blowing in the wind).

Here's a hypothetical, because why not?:

How do you all think Jones would perform if he were swapped with Brock Purdy? I continually here that Purdy is nothing special and he just quarterbacks a loaded offense. 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 18, 2024, 02:14:27 PMIt shouldn't though because as much as people try to act like Jones was magnificent in 2022, he wasn't the 3200 yards and 15 tds show that. So if he duplicates 2022 then in my eyes it's even more obvious we need a change. A 6th year Qb that can't throw for 4,000 yards when 4th rd picks come into this league every year and do it with less talent should be alarming.

If that's the case we should definitely trade down, although I don't know who you're talking about. 

In 2023 3 QBs were taken in the 4th round.  Only one played and he threw for 2200 yards.
In 2022 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and in 2 seasons threw for 2000 yards combined.
In 2021 1 QB was taken in the 4th round and he has 135 career passing yards.

Did I misunderstand your statement?  Hyperbole?  Color me confused.