Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: squibber on June 07, 2024, 01:33:03 PMI don't know anything about military tactics so maybe someone can answer my question.  Thousands of US soldiers died on D-Day. I always wondered if there was another way to get US troops into France with fewer casualties. With hundreds of miles of French coastline was there a less deadly spot? Did the Germans cover the whole coastline? Were they tracking our ships?

Nazi Germany had most of the coast of Western Europe covered, so it was a dilemma. There was no easy or good way to get tens of thousands of soldiers into Europe. So the Allies needed to use deception in order for it to work. In so doing, the Allied used thousands "blow up tanks, airplanes, troop trucks, troop tents" (basically, fancy balloons) that were set up on the east side of Great Britain. The plan was to deceive Hitler into thinking there'd be an invasion on the beaches of Calais, a couple hundred miles east of where the actual invasion occurred. Hitler bit on the bait and had his main forces lined up far east of where the actual invasion took place. Had it not worked, it would have been even more devastating than it was.

Here's a snippet from a history page: "The D-Day deception plan was code-named Operation 'Fortitude' and was part of a larger overall deception strategy – Operation 'Bodyguard'. 'Fortitude' consisted of two parts: 'Fortitude North' was meant to fool the Germans into thinking that the Allies would launch an attack on Norway, and 'Fortitude South' was designed to convince the Germans that an invasion would occur north-east of Normandy in the Pas-de-Calais."





More detail here: https://allthatsinteresting.com/ghost-army-operation-quicksilver

A sad story in this morning's paper. 102 year old veteran died on his way to France for the D-Day ceremony
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2024/06/102-year-old-veteran-from-upstate-ny-dies-while-traveling-to-france-for-d-day-anniversary.html

There was no other way except by sea- certainly not physically by land nor logistically in terms of both men and materials. What was absolutely remarkable was the elaborate Operation Bodyguard deception by the Allies well in advance and up to the very moment that had the Germans expecting the invasion to occur at the Pas de Calais about 150 miles north of Normandy.

Moreover, the uncertainty as to where and when caused the Germans to spread their wall of defense from Spain to the Arctic. All in all, as great as they were, it greatly reduced Allied casualties and most importantly led to a successful invasion.

Cheers!

As was said, the US did everything possible to make the Germans think that the invasion was going to occur at the Pas de Calais, which is the shortest distance between Britain and France across the English Channel. We did a remarkable job in that the Germans had several Panzer divisions at that location and even AFTER the allies were landing in Normandy, Hitler and the Germans still believed the main invasion was still going to occur at Calais, and left his reserves there.

I just watched a great documentary about how we parachuted several thousand men from the 101 Airborne, Easy Company, behind the German lines the night before to try and disable some of the German armaments and help the troops that were going to land on the beaches the next morning.
If you have ever watched Band of Brothers, they do a great job showing some of this action.

Normandy was not the only invasion into Europe to get to Berlin. There was a second invasion deployed to liberate Italy and create an "under belly" path to Germany

Not to take away from the bravery and sacrifice that happened at Normandy (they deserve every accolade given them, and they were incredibly brave men), but there was a second invasion going that came through Italy. The Germans were dug in deep in the mountains with well hidden nests and well-stocked with artillery

My Uncle Glenn was a soldier in the 10th Mountain Division - a newly formed group of fighters who could scale mountains, ski with a rifle and backpack, and deal with the most difficult terrain. He was killed by mortar fire in the mountains on "Riva Ridge" as he worked towards Po Valley. The 10th Mountain division is stationed near Watertown, NY and the main street is called Po Valley Rd., in honor of the fiercest battles ever faced by the 10th Mountain division. My middle name was chosen because of him and I carry it with pride and gave it to my son who was a combat medic in Iraq.

Sen. Bob Dole was a superb athlete and in med school with the desire to become a doctor. But like many young men of that generation, stopped everything and joined the service to fight in WWII. He was in the 10th Mountain Division and was badly wounded on the same day as my Uncle's death. Medics wrote an "M" on Dole's forehead with his own blood, indicating they'd already given him morphine to stop his suffering while he was presumed to be dying with no chance of making it. His body was left for litter carriers coming up from behind. But he didn't die. His broken body was sent home to Kansas, where he spent months in and out of a coma and wasn't expected to live. The townspeople, where he grew up, pitched in, raising money to bring in the best surgeons and doctors in the country and to pay off his huge hospital bill. It was touch and go with his life for several months. When he finally recovered, he was crippled and permanently disabled for the rest of his life. He went into politics with the hope of representing what he called, "the great people of Kansas" to repay them for their prayers and charity to him. Everyone should read Dole's story: https://www.americanheritage.com/bob-dole-and-nazis-brutal-last-stand-italy

Here's a clip from my family files covering my uncle:

The flag that hung in my grandmother's window by the end of the war


"
The usually smiling and jovial Glenn is showing a far more serious expression in this picture, taken at the end of camp, after spending months in grueling training to become a mountain soldier. His "all business" expression is one that shows he fully understands the seriousness of what's at hand as he is now prepared to go to battle in the unfriendly Apennine Mountains of Italy where the potential of death is a stark reality.

Glenn would be deployed to Italy with the 10th Mountain Division to lead the way and break through the impenetrable, heavily fortified positions of the Germans in some of the most difficult and hostile landscape in the world. Death could come at any second, not only from a bullet, shrapnel, mortar, or mine, but from one simple misstep in the terrain that could cause one to fall to his death. Their job was to clean out the German stronghold in the Apennine mountains and secure a route to Berlin for the IV Corps and Fifth Army to pass through and then be able to cross the Po Valley basin and into Germany from the south.

Much fanfare is given to D-Day and Normandy - as well it should - but little fanfare was given to the "Italy's Normandy" in which overwhelming forces came to shore in waves on Italy's shores to liberate the country from German and Axis powers. The Battle of Italy is often been called, "The Forgotten Front" even though it was where some of the fiercest battles took place during WW II and had some of the highest numbers of attrition.



U.S. forces, British forces, Australian forces, Brazilian forces, etc., landed throughout southern Italy en masse. The 10th Mountain landed in Naples and made their way by foot and mule train to the northern Apennines to perform the duty they had spent over a year preparing for. They would spearhead the 4th Corp and 5th Army into the strategic Po Valley. Once Po Valley was taken, the Army could then march straight into Germany from the south to meet up with the armies that had landed in France and were working eastward into Germany.

The plan was to disembark the ship at Naples, secure the local area in Quercianella, then systematically open a route through the northern Apennines, to make way for the IV Corp and Fifth Army to march into the Po Valley Basin and then straight towards Berlin.

Hitler believed that the mountain region was so strategically advantageous to German soldiers that it literally impenetrable. He was wrong. The soldiers of the 10th had scaled cliffs in the dead of night to surprise German soldiers who believed it impossible to get up the cliffs that protected them, impossible even in daylight.





There were hundreds of bunkers like this one throughout the Apennines. Each bunker was filled with a group of German soldiers - usually 10–12, with various weaponry including mortars, machine guns, sniper rifles, grenades, etc. Notice the shag tarpaulin that could be pulled over the opening so that no amount of searching with binoculars could spot it. Furthermore, the bunkers were strategically placed so that they could view large areas of open ground and kill oncoming soldiers with ease. Hitler believed that no soldier had the heart to go forward under such conditions and continue to ascend the mountains in Italy with such unfavorable odds. He was wrong.
 
The attrition rate for this invasion surpassed that of the invasion of Normandy.

Total casualties. On January 6, 1945, the 10th Mountain Division suffered its first casualties in Italy when eight men were killed by mines in Quercianella, near Livorno. By the time the war in Italy ended, on May 2,
the division had suffered a total of 4866 casualties – 975 killed, 3871 wounded, and 20 taken prisoner.

Casualty percentages. Of the 19,780 men (including 6,416 replacements) who served in the 10th Mountain Division in Italy, 25% became casualties. Of these, 20% were wounded and 5% killed. More than 30% of the
men in the three infantry regiments who landed in Naples became casualties.

Casualty rate. The average casualty rate was 1216 per month, for four months.

COMPARISON WITH OTHER INFANTRY DIVISIONS
Ten other U.S. infantry divisions fought in Italy. Of these, the highest number of casualties were suffered by the 34th Infantry Division.

Division    Total    Casualties    Deaths    Interval    Casualty Rate

34th Infantry   16,401      3,408    20 months      820/month
88th Infantry   13,111     2,606    14 months      937/month
10th Mtn Div     4,866        975     4 months       1216/month

Interestingly, the mountains in the U.S. that were used to train the 10 Mountain Division were turned into ski resorts...namely Vail, Aspen, and Breckinridge









A monument at the peak of Mt. Belvedere

  Never forget their sacrifice

Quote from: LennG on June 07, 2024, 05:19:30 PMAs was said, the US did everything possible to make the Germans think that the invasion was going to occur at the Pas de Calais, which is the shortest distance between Britain and France across the English Channel. We did a remarkable job in that the Germans had several Panzer divisions at that location and even AFTER the allies were landing in Normandy, Hitler and the Germans still believed the main invasion was still going to occur at Calais, and left his reserves there.

I just watched a great documentary about how we parachuted several thousand men from the 101 Airborne, Easy Company, behind the German lines the night before to try and disable some of the German armaments and help the troops that were going to land on the beaches the next morning.
If you have ever watched Band of Brothers, they do a great job showing some of this action.

I shouldn't go on and on about my family's involvement, but my mother's 1st cousin was one of those parachuters who dropped behind enemy lines around 1:30-2:00 AM on June 6th to start the invasion at Normandy. His story deserves to be told

He was in Company E, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, United States Army (better known as "Easy Company" that was documented in "Band of Brothers"). His name was Kenny Webb (called "Buddy" by family), and was the only boy out of three other siblings. My mother (a teenager at the time), and her mother used to make cookies and homemade candy and send it to him on a regular basis, as well as write back and forth often. I have a stack of his letters that he wrote to my mother and grandmother. Keep in mind, he is just one young man out of thousands who did the same, but it gives an insight into the lives of those men or WWII


The above picture is too small to recognize faces, but Kenneth Webb is the 13th soldier from the left in the 3rd row



Here's a snippet of how the drop went: "On 6 June 1944 at 0110, Easy crossed the Cherbourg coast. Their formation passed through a cloud bank, which scattered the jump planes. Between this and the heavy anti-aircraft fire, the drops were badly scattered, with few actually landing on their designated drop zones. By the morning of the 6th, Easy consisted of nine riflemen, two officers, two light machine guns, one bazooka and a 60 mm mortar. Easy was assigned the mission of taking out a battery of 105 mm Howitzers that were targeting Utah beach, four to five km (2.5–3 miles) to the northeast. Eleven men assaulted and captured the entire battery and scattered their supporting infantry. The battery was being zeroed by a forward observer on Utah Beach, calling the shots onto the Fourth Infantry Division on the beach. By seizing the initiative, the young paratroopers saved countless lives that day. From June 6 to July 10, Easy and the battalion were in continuous combat. After Carentan was taken, the Company moved down to Utah beach for debarkation back to England."



This picture is actually a drop during Operation Market Garden, which Kenny was a part of. Since the drop on D-Day occured in the darkness of night at 1:30 in the morning, there are no photos of that


To make a long story short, Kenny was shot and wounded after a couple of weeks fighting on the ground. However, he recovered in time to partake in Operation Market Garden (Holland), and lastly, his final drop was in the Ardennes Offensive known as "Battle of the Bulge" where he was killed in action. He received (postmortem) two Purple Hearts and three gold stars on his wings (one for each drop)


Some photos of him, as well as pictures of letters, and other bits of his life:





Newspaper article on another paratrooper writing home


A letter sent to Kenny from a grateful man from Holland. He was not aware that Kenny had already died






Memorial at Bastogne gifted by Tom Hanks and Chrysler Corporation



Luxembourg American Cemetery and Memorial (where General Patton is also buried)



   

Proud parents


My Grandfather worked for the St. Petersburg Times, and often reprinted Kenny's letters in the paper. Here's a letter from Kenny explaining what it was like learning to jump from a plane

Ric

Wonderful story.

BTW, I was at that cemetery where Gen Patton is buried. If I were able to dig up some of my old 'brownie' pics of when I was in Germany, I would show it to all, but alas, it is buried somewhere and I don't have to effort to find it now.
Gen Patton's grave is right up front, ahead of his fallen troops, where he belonged.

Jolly, thank you so much for sharing your family's history.

Jolly:  thank you for taking the time to educate me and probably a few others here.  Very moving.

Quote from: LennG on June 08, 2024, 11:35:42 AMRic

Wonderful story.

BTW, I was at that cemetery where Gen Patton is buried. If I were able to dig up some of my old 'brownie' pics of when I was in Germany, I would show it to all, but alas, it is buried somewhere and I don't have to effort to find it now.
Gen Patton's grave is right up front, ahead of his fallen troops, where he belonged.

Yup, his grave is situated in front as though he is still commanding his troops

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on June 08, 2024, 02:31:19 PMYup, his grave is situated in front as though he is still commanding his troops

To be sure, you've honored these great heroes with your time and effort in sharing your stories. We are all the more grateful to them because of it.

Further, the memories you've stirred within me of calling out the 10th Mountain Division in old Fort Drum in Ogdensburg, NY, the 101st Airborne Division at old Fort Campbell, KY, and the others retrace my own footsteps during my Army years.

I appreciate your fine work in putting these together for us.

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on June 09, 2024, 09:11:23 AMTo be sure, you've honored these great heroes with your time and effort in sharing your stories. We are all the more grateful to them because of it.

Further, the memories you've stirred within me of calling out the 10th Mountain Division in old Fort Drum in Ogdensburg, NY, the 101st Airborne Division at old Fort Campbell, KY, and the others retrace my own footsteps during my Army years.

I appreciate your fine work in putting these together for us.

Peace!

Thanks, and also thank you for your service

I'm more of a genealogy buff, than a military history buff. But in putting together a 500 page book on my family history, I ended up writing detailed notes on family members in the military, and those who gave their lives fighting for this country

The stories of Glenn (10th Mountain) and Kenny ("Easy Company" 101st Airborne) are well known to me and my son who is a military history buff

One of the problems I have with followup conversations with survivors of the men who served in "Band of Brothers", and other documentaries ("problems" is too strong a word), but maybe you'll get my drift. In those documentaries, the survivors get adorned with praise...for which they are very worthy. But they made it, but those whose lives were taken from them while defending our country have no voice. They are honored, but most of them have no family to tell their stories, who they were as a person, and what they had, and what they gave up. And that's the reason I spent years researching my own history and especially those who died while serving. I spent years gathering pictures, newspaper articles, finding rare books and anything else I could find on them. In short, the genealogy book I have written is my legacy to hand down to my future generations, so the lives of their ancestors are never forgotten. I wanted to put a face and some background on my uncle and cousin (first cousin, once removed), so one can see it from their perspective

On my Dad's side, the three oldest children were boys. All three of them joined the service. The oldest (Bob) landed on the beaches of Normandy and fought his way across France and Belgium, before getting shot in the leg in Germany. But he refused to go to the hospital and marched (limped) all the way to Berlin with the bullet in his leg. He died with that bullet still in his leg. He was given a heroes welcome upon his return and there was a special gathering to honor him in Fort Worth, Texas in his late years

Glenn, the second son, was the only one who admitted he was scared. He hated the idea of war, but signed up anyway. He was 19-yrs-old when he took a direct hit from a mortar and was killed instantly. My father was in the Navy in the Pacific arena at the time. My dad had just turned 18 and when he got a letter from home, he assumed it was a birthday card from his mother. Instead, a copy of his brother's obituary (who he was very close to) fell out of the envelope. My father was completely broken over it

A quick story about Glenn. When he was 16, he packed a bag lunch, and walked several miles along the railroad tracks to get to Binghamton to look for a job. As he was passing through an area of Johnson City called "Westover", there was a huge construction project going on by GE that was going to be building engines and other parts for the manufacture of military planes. He found it interesting, and it was time for lunch anyway, so he sat down on the railroad tracks, pulled out his bag lunch and began to eat. Out of nowhere, cops jumped him, slammed him face down while handcuffing him, then dragged him to the precinct to interrogate him for the suspicion of being a German spy. He was let out by the end of the day, and he was cleared of course. Glenn was a country boy at heart and when he got home, he told his mother, "I'm never going back to the G-damned city again"

Glenn was the fun-loving kid of the family and very athletic, starring in track and team sports. Hence, the reason he was assigned to the newly forming group called the "10th Mountain Division", which was very particular about getting the fittest and most athletic volunteers into the group, due to the brutal missions they were going to be subjected. I know exactly how, when, and where he was killed because of the detailed notes written in his officer's notes from this book (page 84 and 185):



_____________________________________________________________________________

On my mother's side of the family, my mom's mother was one of two children - two sisters. One lived in Florida (my grandmother), and my Aunt Mabel (we called her "Auntie Mabel") in New York, who had 4 children (3 girls, 1 boy i.e., Kenny). My mother also had a brother of fighting age who was a bit of an electronic genius having read every book in the St. Petersburg library on radios, he built his own by the time he was twelve and was communicating on his self-made HAM radio to other radio enthusiasts in England. He tried to sign up for the service, but they said he was more valuable working on a radar project in Schenectady, NY than carrying a gun. So he was sent to work in a lab that was top secret and working on new versions of radar. He died two years later in a freak electrical accident. He was best friends with his cousin Kenny

I have a box of letters that went between the two sisters (my grandmother and Aunt Mabel) as they discussed the death of Kenny and attempted to console one another. Very sad. They discussed the harsh conditions they (Kenny's unit) had been subjected to (freezing weather, no food, some of the soldiers had lost toes from frostbite, sickness, and general misery and suffering). In the end, the only solace they could find from Kenny's death, was that he was no longer suffering. Needless to say, both my grandmother and her sister went through emotional pain from the loss of their sons. Both died at a young age after dealing with more grief than they could handle



Again, this story can be told from tens of thousands of families who had to deal with the death of their child who fought for this country. My only thought was to put faces and a touch of reality concerning two soldiers who fought and died for this great country of ours. Their lives were not in vain!

I was in the 25th Inf Div known as Tropic Lightening (And no, please not the Electric Strawberry) in Korea in 1953 at age 18, having volunteered for the draft, a not uncommon thing to do in those days. I must say that it had nothing to do with the GI Bill which later helped a Bronx-born (You gotta problem with that?) kid pay for my education at Columbia for which I am forever grateful.

Rather, it was because in 1950, barely 4 years since the end of WW2, and the elimination of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo, three other sonofabitches: Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Kim Il Sung seemed ready to do a repeat.

Guess what folks, the only real difference today is that in addition to Putin, Xi Jinping, and Kim Jong Un, we have our own, albeit gutless piece of orange whale xxxx, to add to the list of Autocrats and wannabe Dictators. Can we see any progress in that, or simply the end of all that we had shed our blood for since 1775 and thus in vain.

Talk about rolling over in their graves.

Cheers! I would hope.

Thank you for your service, Larry.
I kind of figured you were in the "Losers' category.

I've been lucky to have seen a lot of the world but few spots affected me as much as our trip to Normandy in 2011.  Coincidentally the trip fell on June 6th.  To stand on the North side of the American cemetery and look out over the bluffs toward the Channel left me awestruck.  The courage it took to sprint across the expanse of beach in the face of a fusillade of hot lead is unimaginable. I got to meet a veteran of that day who at 19 years of age parachuted into Sainte Mere Eglise with the 82nd Airborne...19!  And if the row upon row of crosses and stars of David doesn't bring a lump to your throat or a tear to your eye you haven't a pulse.

My dad was part of Clark's 5 th Army that fought its way up the Italian boot and liberated Rome.  Ironically, Clark entered Rome on the same day as the Normandy invasion and found himself relegated to the back pages.

For those interested in reading more about D-Day or the war in Western Europe I would highly recommend Beevor's book simply entitled "D-Day" or Rick Atkinson trilogy ( An Army at Dawn, The Day of Battle and Guns at Last Light)