Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 21, 2024, 01:46:02 PMI don't want to go any more off-topic about Tim Mara here, but I plan on posting a long thread in the history section one day which I will go more into details of the uncle and nephew relationship as to how it affected the team. I just have to find the time. Typing is easy, but I need to verify facts and record where my info I found comes from to answer any questions people might have.
 John wanted McAdoo as an OC and then as a HC. I don't think he considered anyone else. Like McAdoo, no one else had a chance when Gettleman was available. His decision to hire Judge so quickly was another of him falling in love with a candidate and not listening to others.

I agree.  Wellington was important for the game but not so great for the team.  John has had some success but almost in spite of him not because of him.  But, I think he made a choice with Schoen and Schoen made a good choice with Daboll.  I'm too old to ho thru another housecleaning and I think these guys are good. Just hoping John stats the hell out of their way especially if this year doesn't turn out great.

Im sorry Mara was owner not GM

Allie traded away Huff

IMHO.  Sad day that was

Quote from: BluesCruz on June 21, 2024, 03:22:45 PMIm sorry Mara was owner not GM

Allie traded away Huff

IMHO.  Sad day that was

Well Mara was the GM as far as trades, player personnel and the draft. Ray Walsh held the title of GM, but had nothing to do with traditional GM duties. Even if Sherman traded Huff, that wasn't why they fell to the bottom so quickly and stayed there. Look how many missed games or retired before the '64, '65 and '66 seasons. Who was there to replace them? How many games do you think they would've won those years with Huff? Who do you blame the bad drafts from 1957 to 1960, the years Sherman was not a coach or just an assistant? How about the drafts after Sherman left, the 2nd Tarkenton trade, Morton? Who drafted Rockey Thompson? Even if Sherman made a few bad trades, he was only there for about 5 bad seasons, who was responsible for the other 15 lousey seasons? After the team Well Mara and his father built to win the '56 championship, Well had ran all football operations personally and after that team got old, he had no one to replace them and eventually made them the laughing stock of the NFL.

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 21, 2024, 12:48:42 PMI read it awhile ago, but I think I will read the 2nd half again next time I fly. I didn't find him to be totally honest, especially about Wellington. It seems no one that leaves the team has anything bad to say about Wellington.

Even George Young was forced to keep useless employees like Ray Walsh and Jim Lee Howell. Most trash nephew Tim, but he stayed away from football decisions thru the first half of Robustelli's tenure until he had proof that his uncle was still making the deicisions and running the team. After the Larry Czonka signing, Tim purposly caused interferance for them until Robustelli resigned and along with Art Modell from Cleveland and Rooney from Pittsburgh got Pete Rozelle to convince Wellington to step back and allow the next GM to run the team unimpeded.

The most creditable account of this era is the chapter on Tim Mara in the book "Giants Again" by Dave Klein, about 1982. Very hard to find but the only source I could find that told Tim's side. We wouldn't have had the championship teams of the 80's if Tim didn't step up and force Wellington to step back. Sadly, like the ring of honor, Tim will be ignored from the 100 year celebrations as John continues to erase his cousin's name from their history.

Hi Jim.

We've chatted a bit about this, over the years, and I could not agree with you more that Dave Klein deserved great kudos for his great work in gathering interviews of everyone involved in The Wilderness Years. Giants Again remains my all-time favorite old Giant book and my collection of Klein's The Giants Newsweekly issues from 1981 until it's end in 1997 are a great history of the Giants from Klein's view which has always been excellent due to his close ties with the Giants and articulate writing style.

Tim not making it to the Ring of Honor is an interesting observation. We know he won't ever get there. His dad, Jack, did but that's where that side of the family's contribution will end. Right or wrong, Tim had to play the bad guy fir the good of the future of the Giants. It is something everyone knows but John will never credit as a reason the Giants turned it around.

Peace!

Its interesting how everyone seems to believe Wellington was a meddler through the bad years

But no one seems to think John Mara is not cut from the same cloth as we hit 10 plus years of futility

Hmmmmm

Ben McAdoo wanted to play Gino and draft Mahommes but no.....we are force-fed a Duke grad, who could not even win at Duke.  How would the jury vote on this one

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 20, 2024, 08:03:08 PMI don't know exactly what "public knowledge" means in the above context, but if you google the stuff you're talking about, I don't see any articles from legitimate sources describing what you just summarized or anything else of the sort.

But yes, that is basically what I heard. But I thought of it as more of a rumor than "public knowledge." Perhaps I'm wrong.

In any event, at this point, none of this matters much.

Public knowledge means widely discussed in conversation to the point where it is generally and collectively assumed to be true even if not supported by undeniable physical evidence, witness, or video.

Quote from: BluesCruz on June 22, 2024, 03:42:57 PMIts interesting how everyone seems to believe Wellington was a meddler through the bad years

But no one seems to think John Mara is not cut from the same cloth as we hit 10 plus years of futility

Hmmmmm

Ben McAdoo wanted to play Gino and draft Mahommes but no.....we are force-fed a Duke grad, who could not even win at Duke.  How would the jury vote on this one

The Giants have steadily regressed back to the way they were run in the 60's and 70's since Tim Mara sold his family's share. First was Wellington pushed George Young to hire Dan Reeves. Wellington had tried to hire Reeves in 1979, but was blocked by Tim. John and his father pushed Tom Coughlin on Ernie Accorsi. He made Coughlin change coordinators and forced his hires on him. John was behind bringing McAdoo here, first as OC, then HC. Gettleman was next, then Judge. These hires were all made by John with little input from his football hires. He kept Gettleman, but didn't let him pick a coach. This was what Tim fought for and won in the winter of '78-'79.

This is what I've been watching for the last 2 years, is Schoen making the major decisions or John? I know everyone has their own opinion, but it's too soon for me to answer that.

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 24, 2024, 12:29:20 PMThe Giants have steadily regressed back to the way they were run in the 60's and 70's since Tim Mara sold his family's share. First was Wellington pushed George Young to hire Dan Reeves. Wellington had tried to hire Reeves in 1979, but was blocked by Tim. John and his father pushed Tom Coughlin on Ernie Accorsi. He made Coughlin change coordinators and forced his hires on him. John was behind bringing McAdoo here, first as OC, then HC. Gettleman was next, then Judge. These hires were all made by John with little input from his football hires. He kept Gettleman, but didn't let him pick a coach. This was what Tim fought for and won in the winter of '78-'79.

This is what I've been watching for the last 2 years, is Schoen making the major decisions or John? I know everyone has their own opinion, but it's too soon for me to answer that.

Don't forget that Chris Mara has a role in this too. 

Quote from: TONKA56 on June 24, 2024, 12:57:22 PMDon't forget that Chris Mara has a role in this too. 

Yes, but he's like the Mara's long term friends and employees. The GM needs the power to clean house of employees that aren't useful. It was up to John to clean house and allow Schoen to interview and bring in his own people.

Quote from: Giant Jim on June 24, 2024, 12:29:20 PMThe Giants have steadily regressed back to the way they were run in the 60s and 70s since Tim Mara sold his family's share. First Wellington pushed George Young to hire Dan Reeves. Wellington had tried to hire Reeves in 1979, but was blocked by Tim. John and his father pushed Tom Coughlin on Ernie Accorsi. He made Coughlin change coordinators and forced his hires on him. John was behind bringing McAdoo here, first as OC, then HC. Gettleman was next, then Judge. These hires were all made by John with little input from his football hires. He kept Gettleman but didn't let him pick a coach. This was what Tim fought for and won in the winter of '78-'79.

This is what I've been watching for the last 2 years, is Schoen making the major decisions, or John? I know everyone has their own opinion, but it's too soon for me to answer that.

Excellent points. Wellington wasn't a real meddler as in 'those' days, the G M was the ruler of the camp. George Young did what he wanted when he wanted. Same for Acorsi and even Reese, to a point. Wellington always wanted Coughlin as a coach of the Giants, but either Young or Acorsi had other plans. When Coughlin became available, later on, that's when owners insisted that he be hired. Isn't wasn't a good fit right off the bat but TC was wise enough to make adjustments and the rest is what we say, history.
Now, everything has to go thru the owners, either John or Chris has the final say. I think it is common knowledge that John was the guy who fired Gettleman, and that's OK, the owner needs to be the guy who hires his GM, but then he needs to butt out and let the guy do his job.

History could be different if Wellington acted differently. George Young said several times that Belichick would never be the HC of the Giants. Why, no one really knows but he did admit it. Had this been in today's game, Belichick was the next logical candidate to replace Parcels and who knows what might have been after that, but Young said NO WAY, and we ended up with the guy whose name will never be uttered by my lips.

And to who said that this guy who shall not be mentioned, got a bad rap and inherited an aging team in decline. WHAT. We just won a SB and many of the guys were in their prime. He wasted 2 years of everyone's career. Reeves took that 'aging' team and we went 11-5 if not for a dropped pass by Mark Jackson in the final game against Dallas, we would have won, had home field throughout the playoffs and just might have gone to the SB again. The guy whose name will not be mentioned had everything in place to make a run and wasted those 2 years. Fans like myself will never forgive him for that.

Quote from: LennG on June 24, 2024, 04:20:03 PMExcellent points. Wellington wasn't a real meddler as in 'those' days, the G M was the ruler of the camp. George Young did what he wanted when he wanted. Same for Acorsi and even Reese, to a point. Wellington always wanted Coughlin as a coach of the Giants, but either Young or Acorsi had other plans. When Coughlin became available, later on, that's when owners insisted that he be hired. Isn't wasn't a good fit right off the bat but TC was wise enough to make adjustments and the rest is what we say, history.
Now, everything has to go thru the owners, either John or Chris has the final say. I think it is common knowledge that John was the guy who fired Gettleman, and that's OK, the owner needs to be the guy who hires his GM, but then he needs to butt out and let the guy do his job.

History could be different if Wellington acted differently. George Young said several times that Belichick would never be the HC of the Giants. Why, no one really knows but he did admit it. Had this been in today's game, Belichick was the next logical candidate to replace Parcels and who knows what might have been after that, but Young said NO WAY, and we ended up with the guy whose name will never be uttered by my lips.

And to who said that this guy who shall not be mentioned, got a bad rap and inherited an aging team in decline. WHAT. We just won a SB and many of the guys were in their prime. He wasted 2 years of everyone's career. Reeves took that 'aging' team and we went 11-5 if not for a dropped pass by Mark Jackson in the final game against Dallas, we would have won, had home field throughout the playoffs and just might have gone to the SB again. The guy whose name will not be mentioned had everything in place to make a run and wasted those 2 years. Fans like myself will never forgive him for that.

The Mara's were sticking their noses in with Acorsi and more with Reese. He was firing coordinators during Coughlin's time and brought in McAdoo as OC and head coach-in-waiting while Reese was here. I believe he was pushing for high draft picks and top free agents to give Manning help to make a run when they needed to start a rebuild. He pushed Gettleman for Barkley for Manning when a young QB and less sexy position players were needed for the rebuild.

Belichick was already with Cleveland when Parcells stepped down. Ray Handley didn't have anything to do with the Mara's butting in. The first sign of Wellington butting in again was when Tim was gone and he forced Dan Reeves on Young. It was known Reeves wanted more control of the draft and player personal that Young wouldn't even give to Parcells. Wellington promised Reeves the HC job in 1979 when he flew him in for an interview. Tim called and told him not to come back. It was very embarrassing for Wellington. It wasn't surprising that Reeves wasn't a good match with Young.

BB was in Cleveland because he knew he would never be the coach of the Giants. Yes, he didn't know for sure Parcels was stepping down, but he had his opportunity in Cleveland and he took it. But, he knew for a fact that Young was never going to allow him to become the HC of the Giants, so why stay?

The Maras had no say in who was to be the coach when Parcels left, that was all on Young. It was late and the Giants needed to make a move so the best option for Young was he who will not be mentioned here.

The only reason Reeves was hired as he promised to be a 'good boy' to Goerge Young. Again, the Maras had nothing to do with his hire. Goerge Young was Lord and Master. Wellington might have suggested the hire, but again, Young held him on a very short leash. If you remember, Young was so pissed that Reeves basically benched Dave Brown, who was Geoge Youngs pride and joy boy, that he couldn't wait to run Reeves out of town. Reeves promised he would just coach and let Young do what he did, but Reeve's reneged on that by bringing in 'his guys' from Denver and Young couldn't wait to run him out the door. Enter Fassel, who, as I said before, annotated Brown as his starter before he ever saw him play. That was Goerge Youngs condition for his hire.