Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 19, 2024, 08:19:53 PMSXD,

I can get on board with the idea that if he throws for about 4k yards, at least 25 TDs, about 10 picks, a rating in the mid 90s, AND the team makes the playoffs, then he has a pretty good shot of being brought back on this contract.
 

All those stats would be top 10.  DJ isn't even among the top 10 highest-paid QBs.  Don't you think if that happened DJ would have better than "a pretty good shot" to continue with the team?

Hi SXD,

Allow me to address the points you raised, one by one:

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 20, 2024, 12:15:25 AMYou said that 4,000 25/10 is not something we've seen him do before, but in 2022 his total numbers (passing and rushing) were actually very close to that, as I have the following.

3,900 total yards - 67% - 22 TD - 5 Int - 93.2 RTG - 60.6 QBR

I was referring specifically to passing yards. I am a believer that in order to be a championship caliber or even upper echelon offense in today's NFL, you need to be able to move the ball effectively through the air. By "effectively" I don't just mean a good completion rate and not many picks, because those two things can be achieved by being extremely conservative in the air, as the Giants were in 2022. By "effectively" I mean being a passing offense that is able to do the short stuff but also achieve explosive plays with regularity. That was not the 2022 Giants.

Nobody is denying that Jones is not a very good or great runner. He definitely is. But I don't think that is enough, nor do I think it is a sufficient supplement to being a very good passer. Not the way the league has set up the rules in today's game.

I will close this segment with a question: When you summarize Jones' production and choose to combine rushing yards and passing yards and also rushing touchdowns and passing touchdowns, is there a reason why you omit fumbles on the turnovers side of your ledger and only list the INTs?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 20, 2024, 12:15:25 AMDave, you also said that in five years DJ has never been a good QB, correct?

No, respectfully, it is not. I said that he has never been a VERY good QB. I wholeheartedly stand by that statement, and I believe there is a clear difference.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 20, 2024, 12:15:25 AMFinal thoughts, please remember that the "total yardage" numbers were projections from the OP article and not my numbers.

Fully understood. We have all agreed that this whole thread is finger-in-the-air type stuff.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 20, 2024, 12:15:25 AMLet's say DJ does put up 4,000 yards, 20-25 TDs, 10 Int, and a 93.4 RTG, but they don't make the playoffs, do the Giants bring him back?

Since you're combining rushing and passing here, I'll assume you mean something like 3400 passing yards, maybe 19 passing TDs, 10 picks, and 600 rushing yards with maybe 4-5 rushing TDs and X fumbles (I'll assume X = some non-unreasonable number like 5). Is the above a fair assumption?

I think they would not bring him back if he did the above, and the team fell short of being one of the 7 NFC playoff teams. I think $40mm a year is too much, even with the expanding cap, to be paying for that type of an outcome, and I think they would agree with that. To me those numbers are fairly pedestrian, and the reality is you don't need to be spending that much to get pedestrian QB production with a pedestrian season outcome.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 20, 2024, 07:09:56 PMHi SXD,

Allow me to address the points you raised, one by one:



I was referring specifically to passing yards. I am a believer that in order to be a championship caliber or even upper echelon offense in today's NFL, you need to be able to move the ball effectively through the air. By "effectively" I don't just mean a good completion rate and not many picks, because those two things can be achieved by being extremely conservative in the air, as the Giants were in 2022. By "effectively" I mean being a passing offense that is able to do the short stuff but also achieve explosive plays with regularity. That was not the 2022 Giants.

Nobody is denying that Jones is not a very good or great runner. He definitely is. But I don't think that is enough, nor do I think it is a sufficient supplement to being a very good passer. Not the way the league has set up the rules in today's game.

I will close this segment with a question: When you summarize Jones' production and choose to combine rushing yards and passing yards and also rushing touchdowns and passing touchdowns, is there a reason why you omit fumbles on the turnovers side of your ledger and only list the INTs?


No, respectfully, it is not. I said that he has never been a VERY good QB. I wholeheartedly stand by that statement, and I believe there is a clear difference.

Fully understood. We have all agreed that this whole thread is finger-in-the-air type stuff.

Since you're combining rushing and passing here, I'll assume you mean something like 3400 passing yards, maybe 19 passing TDs, 10 picks, and 600 rushing yards with maybe 4-5 rushing TDs and X fumbles (I'll assume X = some non-unreasonable number like 5). Is the above a fair assumption?

I think they would not bring him back if he did the above, and the team fell short of being one of the 7 NFC playoff teams. I think $40mm a year is too much, even with the expanding cap, to be paying for that type of an outcome, and I think they would agree with that. To me those numbers are fairly pedestrian, and the reality is you don't need to be spending that much to get pedestrian QB production with a pedestrian season outcome.

I honestly think the only way Jones is back is if we stumble into an 8-9 win season that puts us out of contention to draft someone and we are unable to attract a middle of the road stop gap in FA. Jones only does well in the short to intermediate which is the complete opposite of how Daboll likes to run his offenses.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 20, 2024, 08:54:48 PMI honestly think the only way Jones is back is if we stumble into an 8-9 win season that puts us out of contention to draft someone and we are unable to attract a middle of the road stop gap in FA. Jones only does well in the short to intermediate which is the complete opposite of how Daboll likes to run his offenses.

There are always vets available on the cheap. The Bucs and Browns cobbled into the playoffs with QBs last year who were making in the single digits millions a year. No matter what their circumstances are in terms of the draft or whatever else, I don't see any way the Giants continue to pay Jones at his contract rate in 2025 if they don't believe they have a high quality starter on their hands. If he's just meh, then the economics will no longer work, regardless of whether they are in position to draft someone or not. They'll cut him, sign a vet for $5mm-$10mm, and use the savings to bring in some talent in other areas.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 20, 2024, 07:09:56 PMHi SXD,

Allow me to address the points you raised, one by one:



I was referring specifically to passing yards. I am a believer that in order to be a championship caliber or even upper echelon offense in today's NFL, you need to be able to move the ball effectively through the air. By "effectively" I don't just mean a good completion rate and not many picks, because those two things can be achieved by being extremely conservative in the air, as the Giants were in 2022. By "effectively" I mean being a passing offense that is able to do the short stuff but also achieve explosive plays with regularity. That was not the 2022 Giants.

Nobody is denying that Jones is not a very good or great runner. He definitely is. But I don't think that is enough, nor do I think it is a sufficient supplement to being a very good passer. Not the way the league has set up the rules in today's game.

I will close this segment with a question: When you summarize Jones' production and choose to combine rushing yards and passing yards and also rushing touchdowns and passing touchdowns, is there a reason why you omit fumbles on the turnovers side of your ledger and only list the INTs?


No, respectfully, it is not. I said that he has never been a VERY good QB. I wholeheartedly stand by that statement, and I believe there is a clear difference.

Fully understood. We have all agreed that this whole thread is finger-in-the-air type stuff.

Since you're combining rushing and passing here, I'll assume you mean something like 3400 passing yards, maybe 19 passing TDs, 10 picks, and 600 rushing yards with maybe 4-5 rushing TDs and X fumbles (I'll assume X = some non-unreasonable number like 5). Is the above a fair assumption?

I think they would not bring him back if he did the above, and the team fell short of being one of the 7 NFC playoff teams. I think $40mm a year is too much, even with the expanding cap, to be paying for that type of an outcome, and I think they would agree with that. To me those numbers are fairly pedestrian, and the reality is you don't need to be spending that much to get pedestrian QB production with a pedestrian season outcome.

Hi Dave,

I appreciate the time you spent to address my questions, and the way you did so was respectful and with the proper sense stress and tone, and so I wanted to say thank you for doing that.

Let me address two of your points and quotes down below

QuoteI will close this segment with a question: When you summarize Jones' production and choose to combine rushing yards and passing yards and also rushing touchdowns and passing touchdowns, is there a reason why you omit fumbles on the turnovers side of your ledger and only list the INTs?

Answer: Because Daniel Jones only had six fumbles in 2022. Conversely Matt Ryan had 15, Josh Allen 13, and Trevor Lawrence 12. I think it's safe to say he was one of the least prone QB's to fumbling the ball, especially in regards to his peers.

QuoteNo, respectfully, it is not. I said that he has never been a VERY good QB. I wholeheartedly stand by that statement, and I believe there is a clear difference.

So, you are admitting that in 2022 Daniel Jones was a good QB, I appreciate that, but not a very good QB.

Okay, so in 2022 he had a 62.9 QBR which ranked him 6th, his 92.5 RTG ranked him 13th.

He also beat Trevor Lawrence, Lamar Jackson, and Kirk Cousins (should've been twice).

His passing yardage was 3,205 but we need to remember they held him out of game seventeen because they had already clinched the playoffs, so these numbers would actually be higher.

And he threw the ball 472 times but only had five interceptions, which gave him an extremely low interception rate.

So, I do have a question for you. If you are admitting that Daniel Jones was a good QB in 2022, then may I ask who are the QB's that you would say are "very good", and if you can be specific so I can see the ones that you have specifically ranked above him.

Thanks so much.

Hey SXD,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will address the points you raised:

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 21, 2024, 04:38:39 AMAnswer: Because Daniel Jones only had six fumbles in 2022. Conversely Matt Ryan had 15, Josh Allen 13, and Trevor Lawrence 12. I think it's safe to say he was one of the least prone QB's to fumbling the ball, especially in regards to his peers.

Ok, but I'm still not sure I fully understand. If six is too small a number to bother including for fumbles, why include the seven rushing touchdowns in his touchdown total?

At the end of the day, why not just include all the relevant stats and give the complete picture if you're doing combined totals for yards, touchdowns, and turnovers? Why sweep anything under the rug?

If you want to just include lost fumbles and not total fumbles, I think that's fine, but I don't see why his turnover total should not include all turnovers. Why not make the summary you are providing thoroughly representative of everything he did, good and bad?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 21, 2024, 04:38:39 AMSo, you are admitting that in 2022 Daniel Jones was a good QB, I appreciate that, but not a very good QB.

Yes, correct. I think Daniel Jones was good in 2022, and not better than good.

In every other season he has not been good, in my opinion. And I feel he has never been "very good" for a full season, either at Duke or on the Giants.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 21, 2024, 04:38:39 AMOkay, so in 2022 he had a 62.9 QBR which ranked him 6th, his 92.5 RTG ranked him 13th.

He also beat Trevor Lawrence, Lamar Jackson, and Kirk Cousins (should've been twice).

His passing yardage was 3,205 but we need to remember they held him out of game seventeen because they had already clinched the playoffs, so these numbers would actually be higher.

And he threw the ball 472 times but only had five interceptions, which gave him an extremely low interception rate.

These all look like accurate statements to me.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 21, 2024, 04:38:39 AMSo, I do have a question for you. If you are admitting that Daniel Jones was a good QB in 2022, then may I ask who are the QB's that you would say are "very good", and if you can be specific so I can see the ones that you have specifically ranked above him.

I am happy to answer this, but before I do, can you just clarify:

Do you mean which QBs were "very good" (or better) in 2022 specifically, or which QBs do I think are very good or better right now?

I think you are asking the latter, but I just want to be sure before I answer so we can avoid an unnecessary further back and forth on the subject.

Thank you.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 21, 2024, 07:23:03 PMHey SXD,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will address the points you raised:

Ok, but I'm still not sure I fully understand. If six is too small a number to bother including for fumbles, why include the seven rushing touchdowns in his touchdown total?

At the end of the day, why not just include all the relevant stats and give the complete picture if you're doing combined totals for yards, touchdowns, and turnovers? Why sweep anything under the rug?

If you want to just include lost fumbles and not total fumbles, I think that's fine, but I don't see why his turnover total should not include all turnovers. Why not make the summary you are providing thoroughly representative of everything he did, good and bad?


Yes, correct. I think Daniel Jones was good in 2022, and not better than good.

In every other season he has not been good, in my opinion. And I feel he has never been "very good" for a full season, either at Duke or on the Giants.

These all look like accurate statements to me.

I am happy to answer this, but before I do, can you just clarify:

Do you mean which QBs were "very good" (or better) in 2022 specifically, or which QBs do I think are very good or better right now?

I think you are asking the latter, but I just want to be sure before I answer so we can avoid an unnecessary further back and forth on the subject.

Thank you.

"Daniel Jones actually didn't do very well outside the red zone. In fact, he was worse in 2022 than he was in 2021 per most metrics:

2022: -0.03 EPA/att, 41.9% success, 7.0 YPA, 68% comp, 32% conversions on third down.

2021: 0.00 EPA/att, 43.1% success, 7.4 YPA, 68% comp, 36% conversions on third down.

Jones completed passes at an identical rate in 2022 despite his target depth decreasing from 7.6 air yards in 2021 to 6.7 air yards in 2022.

One solid area of improvement was reducing interceptions, dropping his interception rate from 2.2% in 2021 to 0.9% in 2022. But that came with a huge increase in his sack rate, from 5.3% in 2021 up to 8.7% in 2022.

The bottom line was Daniel Jones was a less efficient passer outside of the red zone in 2022 than he was in 2021.

In almost every key situation, he was worse in 2022.

Passes on first down averaged -0.06 EPA/attempt (lowest since his rookie year) and his 45.1% success rate was a career low.

His EPA/att on first downs ranked 38th out of 47 QBs.

His numbers when passing on third or fourth down were terrible. Jones averaged -0.16 EPA/attempt and a 36.6% success rate. Both were career lows. His completion percentage was only 56%, which was a career low by 5% (prior low was 61%) despite the fact that his air yards per attempt was only 7.1, a full two yards shorter than in 2021 (9.1). As a result of a low completion rate coupled with low target depth, his passes averaged just 6.0 YPA, exactly 2.5 yards fewer than in 2021 (8.5).

Out of 47 QBs last year, Jones ranked:

• 44th in percentage of throws to travel beyond the first down marker (only 37%)

• 42nd n YPA (6.0)

• 41st in target depth (7.1)

• 39th in completion rate (56%)

• 33rd in first down conversion rate (31%)

• 26th in EPA/att (-0.16)

Jones posted career lows on first-down passing and on third/fourth-down passing, and was a bottom-10 QB out of 47 qualifying passers in multiple efficiency metrics on these downs."


30th in deep ball attempts
30th in interceptable passes
31st in air yards per attempt
33rd in danger plays

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/is-daniel-jones-worth-a-huge-financial-committment-analytics-say

But sure you ignore all of that, then it was an ok to solid 2022.

Quote from: MightyGiants on June 20, 2024, 07:20:26 AMAll those stats would be top 10.  DJ isn't even among the top 10 highest-paid QBs.  Don't you think if that happened DJ would have better than "a pretty good shot" to continue with the team?

If we just go off 2023's leaders, he'd be about 10th in passing yards and passing touchdowns with 4k and 25, and he'd be outside the top 10 with a rating in the 93s. Looks like he'd be about 13th. And only 15 QBs had 10 or more INTs, so I don't see how that stat would be top 10 either.

So by the looks of it to me, if you put all of the above together, it seems more accurate to say that he's on the outside looking in at the top 10 with those exact stats, using the most recent NFL season as a guide.

I'm comfortable with the way I worded my response.

Most people after 2022 said that Daboll made Jones significantly better and I don't know that is true. I think I would much prefer what shurmer did with Jones more so than Daboll. I don't know that Daboll trusts Jones to run his offense or make the throws.

It's so weird to me because you see Dabolls offense with Tua, Hurts, Allen etc and it is electric but then you don't see that with Jones. He gets injured, Tyrod steps in, and Daboll pulls out all the deep shots and exciting plays.

I'm not sure anyone has picked up on that but I wish a beat reporter would have asked why the offense playcalling looks so much better with tyrod in the game over Jones.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 21, 2024, 07:23:03 PMHey SXD,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will address the points you raised:

Ok, but I'm still not sure I fully understand. If six is too small a number to bother including for fumbles, why include the seven rushing touchdowns in his touchdown total?

At the end of the day, why not just include all the relevant stats and give the complete picture if you're doing combined totals for yards, touchdowns, and turnovers? Why sweep anything under the rug?

If you want to just include lost fumbles and not total fumbles, I think that's fine, but I don't see why his turnover total should not include all turnovers. Why not make the summary you are providing thoroughly representative of everything he did, good and bad?


Yes, correct. I think Daniel Jones was good in 2022, and not better than good.

In every other season he has not been good, in my opinion. And I feel he has never been "very good" for a full season, either at Duke or on the Giants.

These all look like accurate statements to me.

I am happy to answer this, but before I do, can you just clarify:

Do you mean which QBs were "very good" (or better) in 2022 specifically, or which QBs do I think are very good or better right now?

I think you are asking the latter, but I just want to be sure before I answer so we can avoid an unnecessary further back and forth on the subject.

Thank you.

Hi Dave,

QuoteI am happy to answer this, but before I do, can you just clarify:

Do you mean which QBs were "very good" (or better) in 2022 specifically, or which QBs do I think are very good or better right now?

I think you are asking the latter, but I just want to be sure before I answer so we can avoid an unnecessary further back and forth on the subject.

Thank you.

Yes, the QB's that you think are very good right now.

And I'll answer that question as well after your response.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 21, 2024, 11:46:51 PMHi Dave,

Yes, the QB's that you think are very good right now.

And I'll answer that question as well after your response.

Surely.

So, QBs right now I would say are at least "very good":

By the way, I hope it goes without saying that all of the below are purely my own opinions, and not more than that.



Mahomes (elite)

Allen (elite)

Burrow (unquestionably an elite QB but clearly needs to stay healthier)

Stroud (elite. I get it's only been one season, but I've seen enough already to know what we are dealing with here.)

Lamar Jackson (very good to borderline elite)

Herbert (very good, I think an elite talent but needs to accomplish more to get that status)

Cousins (very good)

Love (very good last year, potentially ascending towards an elite level but remains to be seen)

Purdy (very good)

Dak (has had elite regular seasons but has a lot around him and has done far too little in postseason play. Nets out to the low end of "very good" for me)

Hurts (low end of very good. Not super high on him but he has finished 2nd in MVP voting and been in a Super Bowl and is only 25, so he squeaks in to the low end of "very good" status for me).

Stafford (his stats were less than elite last year (albeit not bad) and he may be aging out, but I have always been high on him. When healthy I think he is near elite. Right now today probably nets out to low end of very good).

Goff (I don't see how I can keep him out of this list with the numbers he has put up. He has also played in a Super Bowl plus a conference championship game on a different team. Definitely on the lower end of very good for me though. Goes without saying if you threw him on someone like the Titans he wouldn't look nearly as good. I'd say borderline between good and very good overall. Definitely better than average and at least "good" but on the bubble to very good for me).


So right now, I have 12 or possibly 13 QBs whom I would call at the very least "low end of very good."


Not quite making the cut, but higher end of "good":

Tua (elite regular season stats in recent years but in a uniquely incredible situation and he has just never passed the eye test for me. Also zero playoff wins and only one playoff appearance to this point).

Lawrence (disappointing so far relative to expectations, might improve to very good but not there yet and I don't think he'll ever be elite personally)

Mayfield (I would have had him as less than even "good" before last season, but I have to respect what he did last year. Definitely no better than "good" for me, but I'm certainly comfortable calling him good at this point.)

Carr (I wouldn't call him very good by any means, but I think he still deserves to be called good, or at least the low end of good. Put up fairly solid numbers on a bad team last year.)


* By the way, I'm not bothering with Rodgers in this entire post, because I honestly have no idea what he is at this point. There's a chance he could still be very good, and a very slim, longshot chance he might even somehow manage to be elite, but he could also be downright bad. I really don't know, so I'm just leaving him out altogether. I think we can all agree he was an elite QB throughout the vast majority of his career.



** Let me also do a bit of a glossary here, so we can level set. This is how I define "elite", "very good", and "good" in this whole context:


"Elite": Someone with all pro level talent who, if they stay healthy, has at least a punchers of chance of being in the HOF.

"Very good": QBs who are solidly above average but not elite. Will appear in Pro Bowls in some years, generally put up very good numbers, are usually pretty consistent from season to season, but they don't quite pop off your screen eye-test wise and seldom win Super Bowls. Cousins is a perfect example. Matt Ryan was another one from recent times.

"Good": On the higher end of the average range or a bit above average. Even QBs who in truth are probably dead "average" but are capable of putting together somewhat impressive seasons from time to time. Right now Trevor Lawrence, Mayfield, and probably Carr are in this group.

Below the "good" level would be "average", "mediocre", "well below average", and "low end starter."

Let me also throw in at the bottom here that I think it's possible to be an average or mediocre QB and still have a "good" season or two. I also think a "good" QB can have a "very good" season or two. But if most of your body of work is mediocre or worse, and you have one good season, it doesn't automatically mean you're good. There is a difference between BEING a "good" QB and being an average/mediocre or worse QB who had a good season.


I hope this response was helpful, and I would be happy to answer any further questions you may have.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 22, 2024, 06:58:26 AMSurely.

So, QBs right now I would say are at least "very good":

By the way, I hope it goes without saying that all of the below are purely my own opinions, and not more than that.



Mahomes (elite)

Allen (elite)

Burrow (unquestionably an elite QB but clearly needs to stay healthier)

Stroud (elite. I get it's only been one season, but I've seen enough already to know what we are dealing with here.)

Lamar Jackson (very good to borderline elite)

Herbert (very good, I think an elite talent but needs to accomplish more to get that status)

Cousins (very good)

Love (very good last year, potentially ascending towards an elite level but remains to be seen)

Purdy (very good)

Dak (has had elite regular seasons but has a lot around him and has done far too little in postseason play. Nets out to the low end of "very good" for me)

Hurts (low end of very good. Not super high on him but he has finished 2nd in MVP voting and been in a Super Bowl and is only 25, so he squeaks in to the low end of "very good" status for me).

Stafford (his stats were less than elite last year (albeit not bad) and he may be aging out, but I have always been high on him. When healthy I think he is near elite. Right now today probably nets out to low end of very good).

Goff (I don't see how I can keep him out of this list with the numbers he has put up. He has also played in a Super Bowl plus a conference championship game on a different team. Definitely on the lower end of very good for me though. Goes without saying if you threw him on someone like the Titans he wouldn't look nearly as good. I'd say borderline between good and very good overall. Definitely better than average and at least "good" but on the bubble to very good for me).


So right now, I have 12 or possibly 13 QBs whom I would call at the very least "low end of very good."


Not quite making the cut, but higher end of "good":

Tua (elite regular season stats in recent years but in a uniquely incredible situation and he has just never passed the eye test for me. Also zero playoff wins and only one playoff appearance to this point).

Lawrence (disappointing so far relative to expectations, might improve to very good but not there yet and I don't think he'll ever be elite personally)

Mayfield (I would have had him as less than even "good" before last season, but I have to respect what he did last year. Definitely no better than "good" for me, but I'm certainly comfortable calling him good at this point.)

Carr (I wouldn't call him very good by any means, but I think he still deserves to be called good, or at least the low end of good. Put up fairly solid numbers on a bad team last year.)


* By the way, I'm not bothering with Rodgers in this entire post, because I honestly have no idea what he is at this point. There's a chance he could still be very good, and a very slim, longshot chance he might even somehow manage to be elite, but he could also be downright bad. I really don't know, so I'm just leaving him out altogether. I think we can all agree he was an elite QB throughout the vast majority of his career.



** Let me also do a bit of a glossary here, so we can level set. This is how I define "elite", "very good", and "good" in this whole context:


"Elite": Someone with all pro level talent who, if they stay healthy, has at least a punchers of chance of being in the HOF.

"Very good": QBs who are solidly above average but not elite. Will appear in Pro Bowls in some years, generally put up very good numbers, are usually pretty consistent from season to season, but they don't quite pop off your screen eye-test wise and seldom win Super Bowls. Cousins is a perfect example. Matt Ryan was another one from recent times.

"Good": On the higher end of the average range or a bit above average. Even QBs who in truth are probably dead "average" but are capable of putting together somewhat impressive seasons from time to time. Right now Trevor Lawrence, Mayfield, and probably Carr are in this group.

Below the "good" level would be "average", "mediocre", "well below average", and "low end starter."

Let me also throw in at the bottom here that I think it's possible to be an average or mediocre QB and still have a "good" season or two. I also think a "good" QB can have a "very good" season or two. But if most of your body of work is mediocre or worse, and you have one good season, it doesn't automatically mean you're good. There is a difference between BEING a "good" QB and being an average/mediocre or worse QB who had a good season.


I hope this response was helpful, and I would be happy to answer any further questions you may have.

Thank you for this response, and one last question, which QBs on this list would you say are clearly better than Daniel Jones?

If you polled 32 GMs, every single one of them would take any of the guys Dave listed over Jones and I don't know that it is close. The one 50/50 would probably be Baker and even then he's been healthy and consistent so you know what you are getting.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 22, 2024, 02:42:51 PMThank you for this response, and one last question, which QBs on this list would you say are clearly better than Daniel Jones?

Among the list of those who are very good or better?

All of them.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 22, 2024, 05:40:08 PMAmong the list of those who are very good or better?

All of them.

Hi Dave,

I would agree with you on Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Dak and I'm sure there are a few others.

Even though DJ doesn't have the numbers that Lamar Jackson, Cousins, Lawrence, and Carr have, when he has faced them in the past, I have a hard time accepting that they are clearly better than him, at least talent wise.

Why do I say this?

Because DJ beat Jackson, Cousins (should've been twice), Lawrence, in 2022, and Carr back in 2021.

Currently there are about 18-20 good QB's in the NFL.

I would say DJ is somewhere around that 18-20 QB ranking as of now. He was ranked higher last year I would say.

However, with the addition of Nabers, and if he stays healthy, and the offense clicks he could jump back up into that 12-15 range, but we will have to see.

If he falters, then the Giants will let him go.

Only time will tell, and we will have to see how the year plays out, anything else is just speculation.

Thanks for your answers., though.