Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on June 23, 2024, 12:41:56 AMEven though DJ doesn't have the numbers that Lamar Jackson, Cousins, Lawrence, and Carr have, when he has faced them in the past, I have a hard time accepting that they are clearly better than him, at least talent wise.

Why do I say this?

Because DJ beat Jackson, Cousins (should've been twice), Lawrence, in 2022, and Carr back in 2021.

Hi SXD

I think the above may be a fundamental area where we simply do not agree. You seem to think that since Jones had a better game than Jackson in 2022 when the two teams played (which I agree he definitely did), that means Jones may be better than Jackson. I disagree with that, and I disagree with that line of reasoning in general. Simply put, if Jackson has a much worse than normal game on the day he happens to be up against the Giants' defense, and Jones has a better game than him that same day, I don't think you can draw big conclusions based on that one sample. I evaluate QBs based on their whole body of work, giving more weight to to the more recent data. I don't use just one game in isolation.

If you really feel that way, then I think you also need to be open to the idea that Jones may not clearly be as good or as talented as Nick Mullens, who dramatically outplayed him when the Giants played the 49ers in 2020. Or that Jones may not be as good as any QB who played better than him when the two teams played.

For example, Jones has been substantially outplayed by Geno Smith in the two times they have faced each other. Geno Smith has now "beaten Jones" twice. Are you therefore comfortable saying Geno Smith is clearly a lot better than Jones? Again, using the logic you seem to want to use with Lamar Jackson and Trevor Lawrence, I think you need to be open to the above if you wish to be fair and consistent around your methodology. Same thing with the Nick Mullens example I provided.

I suspect you do not believe Nick Mullens is a better QB than Daniel Jones, or that it is even possible that he is, and I would agree with you if you feel that way. But if you do feel that way, then it may be worth reconsidering the line of reasoning you are using with Lamar and Lawrence, because it is precisely the same line of reasoning.

In any event, I am conscious that this thread was meant to be a thread about some hypothetical ESPN projections about the entire Giants roster, not just Jones. I am also a bit over talking about Jones all the time (hence why I have generally done it less in this offseason than in recent previous ones). I am just going to watch the season (as I always do) and will see how things go with all players.

So I think that's it for me on this particular angle of the discussion, but I appreciate all the thoughts and the mutually respectful tone of our exchange. I hope you have a nice rest of your weekend.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 23, 2024, 06:58:09 AMHi SXD

I think the above may be a fundamental area where we simply do not agree. You seem to think that since Jones had a better game than Jackson in 2022 when the two teams played (which I agree he definitely did), that means Jones may be better than Jackson. I disagree with that, and I disagree with that line of reasoning in general. Simply put, if Jackson has a much worse than normal game on the day he happens to be up against the Giants' defense, and Jones has a better game than him that same day, I don't think you can draw big conclusions based on that one sample. I evaluate QBs based on their whole body of work, giving more weight to to the more recent data. I don't use just one game in isolation.

If you really feel that way, then I think you also need to be open to the idea that Jones may not clearly be as good or as talented as Nick Mullens, who dramatically outplayed him when the Giants played the 49ers in 2020. Or that Jones may not be as good as any QB who played better than him when the two teams played.

For example, Jones has been substantially outplayed by Geno Smith in the two times they have faced each other. Geno Smith has now "beaten Jones" twice. Are you therefore comfortable saying Geno Smith is clearly a lot better than Jones? Again, using the logic you seem to want to use with Lamar Jackson and Trevor Lawrence, I think you need to be open to the above if you wish to be fair and consistent around your methodology. Same thing with the Nick Mullens example I provided.

I suspect you do not believe Nick Mullens is a better QB than Daniel Jones, or that it is even possible that he is, and I would agree with you if you feel that way. But if you do feel that way, then it may be worth reconsidering the line of reasoning you are using with Lamar and Lawrence, because it is precisely the same line of reasoning.

In any event, I am conscious that this thread was meant to be a thread about some hypothetical ESPN projections about the entire Giants roster, not just Jones. I am also a bit over talking about Jones all the time (hence why I have generally done it less in this offseason than in recent previous ones). I am just going to watch the season (as I always do) and will see how things go with all players.

So I think that's it for me on this particular angle of the discussion, but I appreciate all the thoughts and the mutually respectful tone of our exchange. I hope you have a nice rest of your weekend.

Hi Dave,

First of all, I really appreciate your mild manner and respectful approach. I think we both have demonstrated how to have a conversation here in a respectful way, and it is to be commended.

However, there was a clear phrase that I had stated that may have been missed, so let me share with you my quote again. This is what I said.

"Even though DJ doesn't have the numbers that Lamar Jackson, Cousins, Lawrence, and Carr have, when he has faced them in the past, I have a hard time accepting that they are clearly better than him, at least talent wise."

I am clearly acknowledging that Lamar, Cousins and the rest of them have way better numbers and stats than DJ, and it isn't even close. The issue that I have with some of these QB's is I think DJ is as talented or possibly even more talented than some of them, and it is the talent factor that I am looking at.

As far as Nick Mullens goes, he doesn't have the talent that DJ has. What I mean by talent is arm strength, accuracy, velocity on the football, and running ability. So even though Mullens beat him a few years ago, talent wise he is an inferior player.

However, you brought up Geno Smith, and yes Geno has beaten DJ twice, and I would say Geno as of right now is a better QB than him. I think Geno has done a really good job for himself.

I also have no problem acknowledging that there are 18-20 QB's that are ranked higher than DJ as of right now.

However, as I've stated before with the addition of Nabers, and if the O line holds up, it may be a whole different animal this year. He could make a significant jump in the rankings. However, we will just have to see how it plays out.

I have nothing more to say on the subject, please be well Dave and take care.