Big Blue Huddle

I got side tracked with all the comments.   One thing I like to do when it comes to any sort of analytical study is look at the top people.  When this study was completed, did the top QBs seem like the ones you would expect to find at the top?   A variation or two is fine, but if the list doesn't make sense, it's probably fair to assume the assumptions of the study were faulty.  So here are the top 5 clutch QBs.

1. Patrick Mahomes
2. C.J. Stroud
3. Jalen Hurts
4. Josh Allen
5. Jared Goff


Does that ranking seem off?

All of the remarks in this thread are sensible (or, where intended, funny and interesting), BUT...

Daniel Jones is the QB of the NY Giants for at least one more year.

It's good to know he has "done it" before in case he's asked to do it again.

Remember... you need a decent team to HAVE "clutch QB" opportunities.

When you're out of contention in a game after three quarters, it's almost never just one guy's fault.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 05, 2024, 07:51:05 AMAll of the remarks in this thread are sensible (or, where intended, funny and interesting), BUT...

Daniel Jones is the QB of the NY Giants for at least one more year.

It's good to know he has "done it" before in case he's asked to do it again.

Remember... you need a decent team to HAVE "clutch QB" opportunities.

When you're out of contention in a game after three quarters, it's almost never just one guy's fault.

Bob

Yeah,

It's sort of funny; when DJ isn't in the conversation, we have discussions about the consistent lack of talent on the Giants roster.  When DJ enters the conversation, some people act like the Giants have the 49ers roster. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 04, 2024, 11:59:11 AMI read the explanation, but I am still not sure how a QB who is 22-36-1 and only has one playoff win in five years can be characterized as one of the 8 most clutch QBs in the league. The author might want to consider the possibility that Jones' not having many clutch opportunities in the first place might have something to do with him specifically, but in any event, this ranking did get me to click on the link, so mission accomplished on that front at least.

I am on record as being on the fence with DJ with a strong lean to the side of HE'S NOT THE ANSWER.

That being said, I am strongly against pinning regular season  W-L records on QB's who are playing on bad teams.

This franchise has been void of talent since the 2011 miracle that Eli pulled out of his back pocket. Let's be real. Since then, we've been rooting for a BAD franchise.


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Quote from: LennG on July 04, 2024, 10:34:41 PMHow has Daniel Jones improved after he signed his $160 million contract?

We don't know if he improved or got worse, why?

The answer is quite simple, because his offensive line went from being ranked 18th in 2022, to dropping all the way down to 29th.

It had a major effect on his play, and his ability to perform.

Would you agree that is offensive line got worse in 2023?

Or do you feel that had no impact on his play?

Quote from: kingm56 on July 04, 2024, 10:39:35 PMYou completely avoided the question, and worse, refrained the premise. How do you explain your inconsistency?  Are you saying DJ victories over the aforementioned QBs no longer matter?  How does the notion that football is a team support reconcile with giving credit to an individual player for being 'clutch'? 

Concerning A, for the fifth time, I never made that statement; I provided you the exact quote of what I said in 2020 and it came to fruition.  Do I need to provide it to you again?

Concerning B, I completely reject your notion; as I've stated multiple times, it takes 30 games for a QB to demonstrate their abilities post 2012. None of those QBs magically became something they weren't after 30 GS. Your attempt to subvert the narrative, in an to prove I was incorrect, is boring. Should I iterate through your gems? I'm not going to do that because it's juvenile

How does it make me feel?  Football is inconsequential; it doesn't move my emotional dial one direction or the other.  I'm sure I've been wrong numerous times, and that's ok.  However, I was correct on the items you highlighted.

BL: If you're going to claim in one thread using
W/L to judge a QB is unfair, you should avoid using the same metric in another thread when it fits your narrative...that's the definition of hypocrisy. 

Sir,

You have completely misread the thread. If you go back to the original article I posted, it wasn't from me sir. This is what the writer from CBS sports said.

Once again, it's not me, so please stop inferring that I am saying he is the 8th most clutch QB. It is CBS sports who has made that claim, and if you have an issue with them, then you need to write into them and take it up with them.

This is why it is so important that a person actually interprets data correctly, reads information correctly, before posting because as usual they will come to a wrong conclusion.  

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on July 05, 2024, 10:00:45 AMI am on record as being on the fence with DJ with a strong lean to the side of HE'S NOT THE ANSWER.

That being said, I am strongly against pinning regular season  W-L records on QB's who are playing on bad teams.

This franchise has been void of talent since the 2011 miracle that Eli pulled out of his back pocket. Let's be real. Since then, we've been rooting for a BAD franchise.


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I've tried to make this point in the past. When Eli Manning had his greatest season in 2011, he was supported by a very good offensive line, three wide receivers that defenses collectively had no answer for, two running backs that defenses respected even if not productive during the regular season, and a better than advertised clutch tight end. In response, expect rhetoric about how the game has changed blah blah blah. I've given up arguing and just want to see the games.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 05, 2024, 07:30:34 AMI got side tracked with all the comments.   One thing I like to do when it comes to any sort of analytical study is look at the top people.  When this study was completed, did the top QBs seem like the ones you would expect to find at the top?   A variation or two is fine, but if the list doesn't make sense, it's probably fair to assume the assumptions of the study were faulty.  So here are the top 5 clutch QBs.

1. Patrick Mahomes
2. C.J. Stroud
3. Jalen Hurts
4. Josh Allen
5. Jared Goff


Does that ranking seem off?

Not to me. They've done it or at least performed well in the clutch.

Little surprised to see Stroud so high though considering the body of work but I think he's very good.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the rankings - I know we had a back and forth on Stroud, where you seemed less than convinced on his talent and attributed it to the surrounding cast (I'm paraphrasing and if idle misremembered our exchange- apologies in advance).

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 05, 2024, 11:10:13 AMNot to me. They've done it or at least performed well in the clutch.

Little surprised to see Stroud so high though considering the body of work but I think he's very good.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the rankings - I know we had a back and forth on Stroud, where you seemed less than convinced on his talent and attributed it to the surrounding cast (I'm paraphrasing and if idle misremembered our exchange- apologies in advance).

Ed,

I think you are mistaken. People were pointing to Stroud as proof that a quarterback could perform without support. My argument wasn't that Stroud was talented but rather that he had a better supporting cast than claimed.

Quote from: TONKA56 on July 05, 2024, 11:06:28 AMI've tried to make this point in the past. When Eli Manning had his greatest season in 2011, he was supported by a very good offensive line, three wide receivers that defenses collectively had no answer for, two running backs that defenses respected even if not productive during the regular season, and a better than advertised clutch tight end. In response, expect rhetoric about how the game has changed blah blah blah. I've given up arguing and just want to see the games.

Tonka, that's factually incorrect; according to PFF, Eli literally played behind the NFLs worst blocking oline and #32 ranked run offence. I'm curious, how was he supported by a "very good oline"?

 

 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 05, 2024, 11:20:48 AMTonka, that's factually incorrect; according to PFF, Eli literally played behind the NFLs worst blocking oline and #32 ranked run offence. I'm curious, how was he supported by a "very good oline"?

Run game was dead last in the regular season.

It moved to the middle of the pack as they progressed through the post-season.
 

 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 05, 2024, 11:23:08 AMRun game was dead last in the regular season.

It moved to the middle of the pack as they progressed through the post-season.
 

Exactly, Ed.  I continue to read on this site how great the 2011 Oline was; in fact, it was atrocious.  Eli, JPP, and Cruz carried that team to the Playoffs.  It was Eli's best season, by far, and it happened behind the NFLs worst Oline. 

In 2011 Eli Manning was supported by three elite WR's.

They were:

Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Let's not forget that.

In football no man can do it all by himself.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 05, 2024, 11:55:12 AMIn 2011 Eli Manning was supported by three elite WR's.

They were:

Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Let's not forget that.

In football no man can do it all by himself.

Fans overexaggerate Nicks and Manninghams abilities; the former was a good WR for 2 of his 7 years and the latter never cracked the 1,000 yard/yr; Both were also well below average without Eli throwing them the ball. 

In their combined seasons, they have zero PBs and zero AP consideration. At best, they were good; I also think its fair to conclude they benefited greatly from Eli's 2011 greatness. 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 05, 2024, 12:12:48 PMFans overexaggerate Nicks and Manninghams abilities; the former was a good WR for 2 of his 7 years and the latter never cracked the 1,000 yard/yr; Both were also well below average without Eli throwing them the ball. 

In their combined seasons, they have zero PBs and zero AP consideration. At best, they were good; I also think its fair to conclude they benefited greatly from Eli's 2011 greatness. 

PFF had the receiving of the Giants ranked 4th during the regular season with an impressive 85.4 grade

In the playoffs, the unit was the second-best, with an 81.2 grade.


Eli Mannings's protection was sub-par but was offset by the other two pillars, coaching and receivers, being elite.   

I think the choice of measures that you used to downplay the 2011 receiving targets Eli was working with is an example of selecting measures to fit a narrative rather than developing the narrative based on the measures.