Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on July 05, 2024, 11:20:48 AMTonka, that's factually incorrect; according to PFF, Eli literally played behind the NFLs worst blocking oline and #32 ranked run offence. I'm curious, how was he supported by a "very good oline"?

 

 

Ok I'm wrong.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on July 05, 2024, 11:23:08 AMRun game was dead last in the regular season.

It moved to the middle of the pack as they progressed through the post-season.
 

 

In terms of production absolutely, but I'd like to know if defenses still focused on stopping Bradshaw and Jacobs and took their chances with Manning.

Ninety percent of what we do around here is not just to guess but to "second-guess". And rarely do we do so objectively. It is often said that uncertainty is an objective feature of the universe, whereas risk is in the eye of the beholder. Assessing/guessing risk re Daniel Jones and the Giants future is actually what this, and most discussions like it, are all about.

In predicting, projecting and/or planning the future, uncertain outcomes are often replaced with single, so-called average numbers. This leads to a class of systematic errors which explains among other things why forecasts are so often wrong.

That is to say, that "plans based on average assumptions are wrong, on average!", an idiom often labeled as the Flaw of Averages. As lately, we seem quite focused on so called, analytics, we might want to keep that front of mind.

Cheers!

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 05, 2024, 10:51:13 AMWe don't know if he improved or got worse, why?

The answer is quite simple, because his offensive line went from being ranked 18th in 2022, to dropping all the way down to 29th.

It had a major effect on his play, and his ability to perform.

Would you agree that is offensive line got worse in 2023?

Or do you feel that had no impact on his play?

George Young once said: show me a struggling team and I'll show you a team with a struggling offensive line.


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Quote from: todge on July 05, 2024, 01:15:25 PMGeorge Young once said: show me a struggling team and I'll show you a team with a struggling offensive line.

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That may be true more often than not, Ted. But something like that may be so obvious that it deserves the label of truism. And unless it gains meaning through corrective action, it becomes merely platitude.

Along those lines, how often do we hear the cliché, Offense wins Games; Defense wins Championships? Perhaps, a better way to put it would be: Bad defense loses championships more than a bad offense does. 

Cheers!

Quote from: kingm56 on July 05, 2024, 12:12:48 PMFans overexaggerate Nicks and Manninghams abilities; the former was a good WR for 2 of his 7 years and the latter never cracked the 1,000 yard/yr; Both were also well below average without Eli throwing them the ball. 

In their combined seasons, they have zero PBs and zero AP consideration. At best, they were good; I also think its fair to conclude they benefited greatly from Eli's 2011 greatness. 

I noticed you ignored Victor Cruz's contribution, and I also began to analyze Hakeem Nick's stats to see if these things were true.

Here are there stats

Hakeem Nicks

2011 15 GP 76 rec 1192 Yards 7 TD

Victor Cruz

2011 16 GP 82 rec 1536 Yards 9 TD

Both of these players accounted for over 2,700 yards, 158 rec, 16 TD's, and this is without Manningham's contribution.

In 2011, the Giants had two WRs that year go for over 1,000 yards, and Nick's did it in only 15 games.

So to say that fans have over exaggerated their importance would be incorrect, they had a major impact on Eli Mannings season.

So both things can simultaneously be true.

Eli Manning played at an elite level that year, and Manningham, Nicks, and Cruz also played at an elite level.

It's a synergistic relationship, as both parties made the other one better.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 05, 2024, 04:48:48 PMI noticed you ignored Victor Cruz's contribution, and I also began to analyze Hakeem Nick's stats to see if these things were true.

Here are there stats


It's a synergistic relationship, as both parties made the other one better.

I explicitly omitted Cruz because he does not fit the description I defined; in short, unlike Nicks and MM, he actually garnered AP and PB consideration.  He was electric and only slowed by significant calf injuries, which ended his career; in short, I don't believe fans overrate him.  Cruz and MM are absolutely overrated and each performed terribly without Eli; in fact, both were out of the league at 27 years old.  Nicks numbers are a direct result of volume, in 2011, he was targeted 133 times, catching just 57% (76) of those passes; with two less targets, Cruz had 300+ more yards and 2 more TDs. 

MM has a grand total of 2849 receiving yards, ranking 30th in Giant history; Reuben Randle has better numbers. He is absolutely overrated by fans. 

The notion that Nicks and MM elevated Eli's games are directly refuted by the facts.  By 2014 and 15 both were off, or inconsequential members, of the team.  How did Eli Perform?  He was a Pro Bowler:

2014  63.1%   4410 YDS    30TD/14 INT  92 RTG
2015  62.6%   4432 YDS    35TD/14 INT  96 RTG (Pro Bowl)

Here is the inescapable truth, Eli was a Pro Bowler without Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham.  Without Eli, the latter two were out of the league at just 27 years.  While Eli did benefit from Nicks and MM skills, the outcome seems lopsided; in short, the WRs benefited more from Eli's greatness than he theirs. 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 05, 2024, 07:28:06 PMI explicitly omitted Cruz because he does not fit the description I defined; in short, unlike Nicks and MM, he actually garnered AP and PB consideration.  He was electric and only slowed by significant calf injuries, which ended his career; in short, I don't believe fans overrate him.  Cruz and MM are absolutely overrated and each performed terribly without Eli; in fact, both were out of the league at 27 years old.  Nicks numbers are a direct result of volume, in 2011, he was targeted 133 times, catching just 57% (76) of those passes; with two less targets, Cruz had 300+ more yards and 2 more TDs.  To be clear, Nicks was a good WR, who was made better by Eli; similar to Steve Smith, without Eli, he struggled.   

MM has a grand total of 2849 receiving yards, ranking 30th in Giant history; Reuben Randle has better numbers. He is absolutely overrated by fans. 

In September of 2012 Hakeem Nicks suffered a knee injury and after returning was never the same player. The injury slowed him down tremendously, as everyone could see he wasn't the threat that he used to be, and it ended his career prematurely.

This is the reason why his numbers dropped off, it had absolutely nothing to do with the QB, and everything to do with the injury to his knee that destroyed his physical abilities.

I have nothing more to say, as I've said everything that I wanted to, so I won't be responding anymore.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on July 05, 2024, 11:55:12 AMIn 2011 Eli Manning was supported by three elite WR's.

They were:

Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, and Mario Manningham.

Let's not forget that.

In football no man can do it all by himself.

That's true, but when you have no protection and no running game, and your defense is "bend and sometimes break" you're forced to set a record for 4th quarter comebacks in order to make the playoffs, which Eli achieved in 2011.

My original point needs a refresher....since that season this franchise has been bad, REAL BAD!


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First 48 career starts

Trevor Lawrence           Daniel Jones
20-28               W-L              19-29
85.5          Pass Rating         85.4
55/35       Pass TD/INT      55/33
12,204   Pass+Rush Yds   11,992
6.7                Yards/Att              6.7



if you can believe it



https://x.com/NFLonCBS/status/1737133669800645027

Quote from: brownelvis54 on July 07, 2024, 01:32:34 PMFirst 48 career starts

Trevor Lawrence           Daniel Jones
20-28               W-L              19-29
85.5          Pass Rating         85.4
55/35       Pass TD/INT      55/33
12,204   Pass+Rush Yds   11,992
6.7                Yards/Att              6.


if you can believe it



https://x.com/NFLonCBS/status/1737133669800645027

. 

It seems the Jags overpaid for Lawrence.....they kept lauding his never having lost a game in college and HS   I guess he is now well acquainted with Losing.  Something we are very familiar with ourselves

Quote from: brownelvis54 on July 07, 2024, 01:32:34 PMFirst 48 career starts

Trevor Lawrence           Daniel Jones
20-28               W-L              19-29
85.5          Pass Rating         85.4
55/35       Pass TD/INT      55/33
12,204   Pass+Rush Yds   11,992
6.7                Yards/Att              6.7



if you can believe it



https://x.com/NFLonCBS/status/1737133669800645027

We've been through this before. Take away the train wreck first season of that Organization and how does it look? Still, Trevor Lawrence has yet to live up to the hype and has disappointed expectations of most, including me. So yes, I believe it.