Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on July 12, 2024, 02:52:58 PMPlayers on opposing teams openly mocked and laughed at Jones in season the week we played them. So it shouldn't be a surprise that other defensive players do the same. I mean we've seen the product on the field, we've got rookie no names throwing for more yards than Jones has ever in a season and still getting benched or that team drafting a new qb. I don't even know why the Jones conversation is even still a thing. Yes I'm rooting for the kid but there is no doubt in my mind it's his last year here.

Daniel Jones  is far far far from the worst starters we have seen (even last year).  Yet, only DJ gets the mocking, which proves the point that this is personal and emotional, not performance based

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2024, 12:49:25 PMThe fact of the matter is that no one predicted the meltdown.

Many fans did forecast the Giants 2023 "meltdown."  Myself, I predicted 7-wins (on record here), but I wasn't alone...there were several others.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2024, 12:49:25 PMThere was no indication of the rankings of the QB support in terms of pass blocking and receivers.

Got it; we should consider these data points, but disregard the fact that DJs performance occurred against the 31st ranked Passing Defense. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2024, 12:49:25 PMThen again, it seems most "fans" post here to talk about the Giants, while a few like to post to try and put other fans down.

Is this anything like telling posters their contribution "is a prime example of how not to use stats"?



 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 12, 2024, 03:39:16 PM1) Many fans did forecast the Giants 2023 "meltdown."  Myself, I predicted 7-wins (on record here), but I wasn't alone...there were several others.

2) Got it; we should consider these data points, but disregard the fact that DJs performance occurred against the 31st ranked Passing Defense. 

3) Is this anything like telling posters their contribution "is a prime example of how not to use stats"?

1)  7 wins is not the prediction of a "meltdown," a meltdown where the team was out of the playoff hunt by Halloween. 

2) strawman argument.  If you are going to be fair and intellectually honest you can't cite only the factors that helped DJ while ignoring the challenges he faced.   I felt they balanced out and so I didn't mention either, while you only mentioned the weak defense.

3) If you were offended, I apologize.  I will confess that I feel strongly about both the value of well-applied stats and a major pet peeve of mine, which is the misuse of stats.  Stats are for learning, not to selectively use to try and create support which is not actual support.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2024, 03:01:14 PMDaniel Jones  is far far far from the worst starters we have seen (even last year).  Yet, only DJ gets the mocking, which proves the point that this is personal and emotional, not performance based

Did Patrick Peterson (and others) ever state DJ was the worse QB in the NFL? Instead, what they noted, is that he lacks key mental attributes to match his ample physical abilities, which will prevent him from evolving into a plus-passer.  Again, IMO, this is nothing new here...this has been on display for 8 years.

For the emotion perspective, I don't understand the impetus for players emotional connection to DJ.  Couldn't they just be giving their honest input

Perhaps its fans who predicted DJ was ascending that allow emotions to override their analysis?  Thus, they tend to negatively spin critiques regarding DJ? Again, I don't see any HATE in Peterson informed opinion, and I suspect you don't either. 

I recall a similar emotion regarding Eli; the half that predicted he was flop refused to acknowledge any datapoints from the half that felt differently.  I see the same emotions as it relates to wanting to be right about DJ. 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 12, 2024, 03:54:09 PMInstead, what they noted, is that he's lacking key mental attributes to match his physical abilities

this is a classic fan myth.  The only ones who can actually assess a QB's mental attributes are the QB coaches.  Everyone else is guessing since they don't know the actual play call or instructions given to the QB.

QuoteFor the emotion perspective, I don't understand the impetus for players emotional connection to DJ.  Couldn't it just be their honest input?

Emotional commentary is "honest" as is factual comments.   

QuotePerhaps its fans who predicted DJ would involve into a top 10 passer who allow emotions to override their analysis?

 My point is very limited.  The man said DJ wasn't good based on direct observation, while he observed an outstanding performance (by every measure) in a high-stakes game (the last game he observed him in).  Also, you should try to be more accurate in your choice of words (and I am not talking about using "involve" instead of evolve"); that's "could," not "would."  I will assume that was an honest mistake.

QuoteThus, they tend to negatively spin critiques regarding DJ?

Why would you make such a baseless and inaccurate claim?  I try very hard to give people here the benefit of the doubt.  Why don't you follow my lead?

Meanwhile back at the farm,  Jones' team beat Peterson's team when it mattered, largely based on Jones' success against the pass defense of which Peterson was a prime part.  Just sayin'.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on July 12, 2024, 04:57:46 PMMeanwhile back at the farm,  Jones' team beat Peterson's team when it mattered, largely based on Jones' success against the pass defense of which Peterson was a prime part.  Just sayin'.

That was never the point of contention, rather the dismissal of a POV of a former pro bowl defender simply because his team lost to Jones.

I think if Peterson heaped praise on DJ's performance, it would be better received by some.

So, in one scenario, his views are dismissed but flip it and it would be taken much better. 🤔

So basically Peterson is saying exactly what I've been saying!  Or really, most objective observers.  Why should defenses be scared of him?  And he has no pocket awareness.  Maybe he elevates like crazy in 2024 though.

I see no trash talking or anything insulting there.

Since Peterson was clearly not talking about a single game in his comments, I decided to look up, for reference, the 3 previous games that Peterson was on defense vs. Daniel Jones.  Here are DJ's stats for those three games:

2019 (vs. the Cardinals):
LOSS (27-21):  22-35, 223 yards, 1 TD- 1 INT, 78.6 passer rating

2020 (vs. the Cardinals):
LOSS (26-7):  11-21, 127 yards, 0 TD- 0 INT, 70.9 passer rating

2022 (vs. the Vikings):
LOSS (27-24):  30-42, 334 yards, 1 TD-1 INT, 92.8 passer rating

Quote from: PSUBeirut on July 12, 2024, 05:16:58 PMSince Peterson was clearly not talking about a single game in his comments, I decided to look up, for reference, the 3 previous games that Peterson was on defense vs. Daniel Jones.  Here are DJ's stats for those three games:

2019 (vs. the Cardinals):
LOSS (27-21):  22-35, 223 yards, 1 TD- 1 INT, 78.6 passer rating

2020 (vs. the Cardinals):
LOSS (26-7):  11-21, 127 yards, 0 TD- 0 INT, 70.9 passer rating

2022 (vs. the Vikings):
LOSS (27-24):  30-42, 334 yards, 1 TD-1 INT, 92.8 passer rating

Don't forget the playoffs. That should count for triple since it was a playoff game Jones won on the road. 

Quote from: T200 on July 12, 2024, 05:13:20 PMThat was never the point of contention, rather the dismissal of a POV of a former pro bowl defender simply because his team lost to Jones.

I think if Peterson heaped praise on DJ's performance, it would be better received by some.

So, in one scenario, his views are dismissed but flip it and it would be taken much better. 🤔

I was not contending, nor taking sides with the arguers.  I was just giving my perspective.  As in why would he even make those remarks unless he still felt the sting of that loss?  They seem rather gratuitous, whether fair or not.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on July 12, 2024, 05:40:42 PMI was not contending, nor taking sides with the arguers.  I was just giving my perspective.  As in why would he even make those remarks unless he still felt the sting of that loss?  They seem rather gratuitous, whether fair or not.

As with everything, there is context. Brandon Jacobs was a guest so obviously the Giants were a subject of the conversation. I didn't hear the entire interview but to say he still felt the sting is something I can't get behind.

Hard to read a defense from the bottom of a pile.

Quote from: T200 on July 12, 2024, 05:49:43 PMAs with everything, there is context. Brandon Jacobs was a guest so obviously the Giants were a subject of the conversation. I didn't hear the entire interview but to say he still felt the sting is something I can't get behind.

Brandon Jacobs never played with DJ, so I don't get the connection.  Maybe someone could link to the video or audio to provide context.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on July 12, 2024, 08:45:00 PMBrandon Jacobs never played with DJ, so I don't get the connection.  Maybe someone could link to the video or audio to provide context.

It's not about Jacobs and Jones. Jacobs played for the Giants, they discussed the Giants, they talked about Jones. Peterson gave his thoughts on Jones as a QB from his perspective of playing against him in a handful of games.