Big Blue Huddle

Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
I dont know what #HardKnocks will show tonight but my reporting then and now ...

Joe Schoen was told exactly what numbers would keep Saquon Barkley with #Giants. He relayed them to others. John Mara wanted to pay it, especially when he heard it was the #Eagles. Joe did not think it was the right use of resources .

John let Joe make the decision (I keep dispelling the popular fan notion that John big-foots personnel decisions).

No offer was made to Saquon after July 2023. The #Giants100 best offer (in July 2023) included about $22M GTD. Philly paid $26M.

The decision to let Saquon go to Eagles — really, to tag Saquon and not a get deal done in 2023 — and how he performs this year will go a long way in determining how hot Schoen's seat gets.

https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1813199104572318192

I will say this-  Regardless of how it turns out, I am supportive of Joe Schoen's decision (only insofar as I think Barkley should have been traded before the trade deadline last season).  You don't give veteran RBs coming off their rookie contract and extensions a multi-year deal, because you almost always pay for past performance.   A rebuilding team shouldn't spend heavy resources on the RB position.

Regardless of the results, I am good with Schoen's process (or thinking/reasoning if you prefer one of those terms).

How exactly does that absolve Mara from meddling? 

A statement that would absolve Mara from meddling is:

Mara: "Joe, I don't know how you're going to handle the Saquon situation but I trust that you will do what's best for the Giants."

Schoen: "Thanks, John. What are your thoughts on it?"

Mara: "My thoughts are that the decision is 100% yours."

Quote from: T200 on July 16, 2024, 09:29:52 AMHow exactly does that absolve Mara from meddling? 

A statement that would absolve Mara from meddling is:

Mara: "Joe, I don't know how you're going to handle the Saquon situation but I trust that you will do what's best for the Giants."

Schoen: "Thanks, John. What are your thoughts on it?"

Mara: "My thoughts are that the decision is 100% yours."

Tim,

I think there are two levels of claims being made. Some fans are claiming that what Mara wants, Mara gets. This post addresses this level.


For people like yourself who feel that Mara's opinions about how to run his team are best left unsaid, this post isn't about your views.   Although, I will say that such a level of meddling is pretty much the baseline for NFL ownership.   Not many (if any) owers that don't even express their non-binding views.

Although it could be argued that the more insipid form of meddling Mara is guilty of is having his nephew hold a high-level position in the team's front office. If I were Schoen, I would feel like John Mara was in the room every time Tim McDonnell was in the room. 

This why Coaches and free agents oft times stay away from the Giants

The Mara's effectively own the team, have plants (family members) in the organization and from what I can tell the Mara's know very little about coaching and player talent .

It took intervention by the commissioner to break this viscious cycle 45 years ago and it will likely require the same intervention now

Otherwise we are adrift.  Lets face it- John Mara cannot help himself and just stand clear of football operations

He should dedicate his life work to figuring how to retrofit a sliding dome onto MetLife.  Maybe he needs a good therapist to channel him through his meddling tendencies

Our two biggest roadblocks are Mara as owner and Jones at QB

I'll also add that this is why Saquon should be excused from any kind of scrutiny regarding whether or not he came back to the Giants after getting his Eagles offer- ie, that he gave them a chance to match.  There is little doubt that both Schoen and Barkley knew EXACTLY the maximum that he was ever going to get from the Giants- so why in the world would he ever come back to the Giants after getting a much better offer than he knew he'd ever get from Joe S?  It would make zero sense.

We could never revitalized this team with either Jones or Saquon starting.

Neither one was good enough....mid range performers at best

Im sure Schoen has a plan to divest of Jones ASAP....possible not starting until Mara offers his Mea Culpa.  We need a winning QB and chain moving RB

Quote from: PSUBeirut on July 16, 2024, 10:19:37 AMI'll also add that this is why Saquon should be excused from any kind of scrutiny regarding whether or not he came back to the Giants after getting his Eagles offer- ie, that he gave them a chance to match.  There is little doubt that both Schoen and Barkley knew EXACTLY the maximum that he was ever going to get from the Giants- so why in the world would he ever come back to the Giants after getting a much better offer than he knew he'd ever get from Joe S?  It would make zero sense.

One word: Optics.

As it stands, Saquon looks like he's not a man of his words, saying he wanted to be a Giant for life but didn't give the Giants an opportunity to match or not.

Yes, we all know Schoen would not have matched and many of us would have been OK with that. But then SCHOEN would be the reason that Saquon is no longer a Giant. Saquon could be the "victim" and say that "I truly wanted to be a Giant for life. They didn't want me."

To suggest a Mara as non-meddling is a hard sell for me. Whether Wellington at times and John later have done so more directly, or in vitro through Ernie, they've never not done so for long. It has been their 100-year old privilege for better or worse. That said, I'd rather not see John on the practice field in t-shirt and shorts.

Cheers!

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2024, 09:36:03 AMTim,

I think there are two levels of claims being made. Some fans are claiming that what Mara wants, Mara gets. This post addresses this level.


For people like yourself who feel that Mara's opinions about how to run his team are best left unsaid, this post isn't about your views.   Although, I will say that such a level of meddling is pretty much the baseline for NFL ownership.   Not many (if any) owers that don't even express their non-binding views.

Although it could be argued that the more insipid form of meddling Mara is guilty of is having his nephew hold a high-level position in the team's front office. If I were Schoen, I would feel like John Mara was in the room every time Tim McDonnell was in the room. 

Rich,

On the BBH, when I reference fans, I'm generally talking about us here on the site and what's been discussed here.

For the most part, the majority of the fans who talk about Mara's meddling are talking specifically about indirect influence by his comments, such as: "John Mara wanted to pay it, especially when he heard it was the #Eagles." Thankfully, Schoen stuck to his guns. I could see Gettleman making the call and telling Saquon that the Giants would match the Eagles' offer.

As far as the meddling being the baseline for NFL ownership, I believe it. But the issue is the indirect influence it has on the organization. It's not always a good thing, especially in the case of the Giants.

I think Mara has opinions, sometimes quite strong opinions, about various players on the team and what he hopes the roster will look like. I think he airs those opinions pretty clearly and pretty regularly. That can impact front office decisions very directly. I appreciate it is not the same as giving a GM a direct order, but it's also not the same as being totally passive in the background.

How one wants to precisely define the word "meddle" in this context is up to the individual, but many would consider the above "meddling", and I don't think that's an unreasonable way of defining the word in this context.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 16, 2024, 03:31:28 PMI think Mara has opinions, sometimes quite strong opinions, about various players on the team and what he hopes the roster will look like. I think he airs those opinions pretty clearly and pretty regularly. That can impact front office decisions very directly. I appreciate it is not the same as giving a GM a direct order, but it's also not the same as being totally passive in the background.

How one wants to precisely define the word "meddle" in this context is up to the individual, but many would consider the above "meddling", and I don't think that's an unreasonable way of defining the word in this context.

Translated into business vernacular:

Schoen is executing his "goals" while pinging the boss (i.e. Mara) to ensure he staying on track with the Corporate "strategy." Mara provides vertical head nod (    ) to indicate "Yes, son, you are aligned with Corporate Strategy in your execution."

At the executive level, that's what's going on. This ties back into Rich's @MightyGiants post about Mara's primary interests in Profit and Loss (P&L), which big-name players directly impact butts in seats, marketing opportunity and NFL Properties sales. So, yes, Mara most definitely needs to be in the know when a former impact player is getting ready to sign elsewhere.

It's called vertical communication, which is part of Giants' business protocol, on significant player transactions, which Mara clearly has stated to the public in the past.

Peace!

My take is probably a little different.  I think the amount of meddling or nonmeddling has changed over time. I think Mara did a good amount of meddling particularly on higher profile players or players that he "liked" and justified it because Schoen was a new inexperienced GM.  Now, that Mara's meddling screwed up the team and Schoen has more experience, Mara is backing away.

His meddling, in my opinion, pushed Schoen into franchising Barkley and not Jones.  Had Schoen been able to, he would have franchised Jones.  Franchising was created for players like Jones who had a good year but whose long term outlook was still iffy.  And, I still don't understand why that injury clause was inserted into the contract unless it came from above. That clause might end up being super serious if the injury bug continues.  Also, that extra million $ given to Barkley after the franchise tag is not something Schoen would have done unless directed to imo.

There are different ways of meddling.  He doesn't order Schoen to do anything.  But Schoen knows his actions are under close surveillance by 2 family members who head up personnel and doubtless pass on info to John and represent John's views in personnel discussions.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on July 17, 2024, 07:39:50 PMThere are different ways of meddling.  He doesn't order Schoen to do anything.  But Schoen knows his actions are under close surveillance by 2 family members who head up personnel and doubtless pass on info to John and represent John's views in personnel discussions.

I will confess that it really bothers me to see Mara's nephew in the middle of so many high-level meetings.  Especially as nothing he has said has impressed me.