Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:20:25 AMCurious, do you ever grow weary of demonizing people who don't share your negative opinions on Daniel Jones?  This is the second time this week you attacked members of this forum for the crime of not sharing your opinions of Daniel Jones.  Can fans be allowed to hold views and opinions that they are still willing to change their views (or fully form their views) and Daniel Jones based on what he does this season?

I am aware there are people who share your negative views on Jones and who will happily endorse your attack on people on this forum, but frankly, that doesn't mean what you are doing is right.  To suggest it only indulges in the ad populum fallacy.

@DragonSoul expressed his views in a thoughtful and respectful manner.  You (and those who support your attacks) really should try to do the same.

Thank you for the support. People have a right to their opinions, that is the reason for this forum, is to share our views. The old official GMB was full of trolls trying to get a reaction out of posters (that's when you ignored them) Doesn't bother me any, been online for decades and know trolls (not calling anyone one here) before people even knew what trolls were.

If I see/feel a troll I simply ignore or block. Those are very obvious over times. But haven't really been here too much after the end of last season was over, so I know things can change and hold judgement as the season goes on.

Quote from: kingm56 on September 06, 2024, 11:33:09 AMWe/Us?  I'm curious, who represents "we" and "us"?  Your choice to use those pronouns indicates you feel comfortable to speak for others and/or have aligned to specific affiliation/group; thus, giving credence to H-town's post.  BTW, when not explicitly tied to religion/politics, the term sect is not a pejorative.  It simply means "a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or leader."  You clearly see yourself as part of a group, hence the pronouns "we" and "us." So, it appears the term sect is appropriate in this context...

To the OP - it was a well-articulated post; although, I fundamentally disagree that a professional NFL team needs 6 years and 77 games to determine the capabilities of their starting QB. Nevertheless, you're correct in this is his last chance...your post was very well done, sir.

Thanks, but not sure you saw the comparison in numbers between Trevor Lawrence and DJ, pretty much identical, yet perception becomes reality as it did with Eli. And generally I agree (besides outliers) it shouldn't take going into his 6th year to know, but when in context as some of the issues mention in my initial post, then it can be understandable. Trust me I want a healthy top tier QB so we can enjoy winning again. Even the top qbs can't work behind a ranked 31-32 oline. It actually be interesting to know how well teams that had those ranked lines faired in their season as a light comparison.

I was around with Kent Graham, Dave Brown and Danny Kanell. I gave them all some, but as you could see somewhat quickly, that they didn't have it at a certain point. Yet when Collins came over I felt we finally had a chance and he got us to the SB.

Quote from: londonblue on September 06, 2024, 12:51:52 PMWe go as far as DJ takes us. It is not unreasonable to doubt his ability to carry the load but it does seem odd not to sincerely hope he proves us wrong. Him succeeding would be the quickest and least disruptive path to being competitive. Unlikely? Probably. Desirable? Definitely.

If DJ fails there is no guarantee that whoever we draft or sign or trade for next year will do better than DJ in our environment. There is a tendency to assume a new QB will fix us but we, like most of the NFL, have more QB misses than hits on our resume. Hope is intoxicating but often ephemeral.

Well said. As they say, grass is always greener on the other side.

So ridiculous that this is even still ongoing. Seriously I'm like the most anti DJ guy there is and I've been over it. Regardless everyone here should want Jones to play all season long so one way or another this debate ends in 2025. We have a year 6 qb who has been a jag every season of his nfl career, the oline is fixed, we have weapons so let's see, either way it's not getting answered before a down has been played.

I am going to share my full opinion of Daniel Jones.

I agree with John Mara when he admitted the team has done everything possible to screw the man up.   I don't believe it's possible to accurately scout a quarterback under terrible conditions.   It's similar to scouting college QBs.   I think most would agree that, based on track record, scouting college QBs is a crap shoot.

As to Daniel Jones, I am less than optimistic (a bit less than 50/50) at this point.  Between a screwed-up professional development and beatings that can leave even strong men with post-traumatic stress, it's concerning if DJ will ever reach his full potential.  Beyond that, I have very serious concerns about his ability to stay healthy.  I appreciate his lack of protection contributed to his injuries, but as Gettleman said, "hurt guys get hurt."

I don't pretend to be able to predict the future. My best guess for this season (assuming a positive outcome) is that DJ will start out slow. Between needing to get used to playing with NFL-calibre protection, so many new receivers, and a new play-caller, it will take time for DJ to get comfortable. Assuming he (and key offensive elements) can stay healthy, the million-dollar question will be what DJ's ceiling will prove to be.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 04:02:27 PM@H-Town G-Fan and @EDjohnst1981

H-town, you were only mentioned because @kingm56 was attempting to gaslight over the insult you hurled. 

Do you guys really need to drag down every single threat that discusses our starting QB?  Can't we just let DJ play and see how he does?  Wouldn't it be better if you talked about Giants football instead of just bashing people you perceive as Daniel Jones sect members?

As a side note, I don't enjoy you guys bashing me.   I work too hard, and I deserve to be treated with respect both for my actions/words and as the owner (who spends all his own money) of the site.  It's disgraceful how you treat me.  I try to treat everyone here well, and you three crap all over me every chance you get.

Amen! The truth is everyone here is a bit antsy now that the new season is a day away from kicking off. Conjecture about the QB is opinion, nothing more, nothing less and its extent and impact is scoped between the ears of the individual with the opinion to begin with.

This site is distinguished because we discuss Giants football in an atmosphere of respect of our fellow brothers and sisters of the Big Blue. We can agree together but we also are mature to disagree, respectfully, using empathy in reviewing every post we are about to contribute before hitting that POST button. That is why, especially in subjects we engage with great passion, there is a PREVIEW button to help provide a moment to exhale, consider your input and its potential impact on a thread and, most importantly, the posting guidelines of this forum.

I've caught myself many times posting cheeky or sarcastic responses because of the mood I was in at that time. When I go back and re-read my post a day or two later, I regret some things I said and, once in a while, I have felt obligated to apologize to an individual and the entire board for what I believe was an inappropriate response.

Long rant over! There has been excellent dialog here, pro and con, on the QB. STAY ON TOPIC!!! DON'T GROUP, MARGINALIZE OR INFER ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS BOARD! It has no place and destroys the quality discussion we were having.

Please! Just stick to the topic and debate your opinions respectfully. You all are valued members with excellent Giants' experiences to share. Opinions will always differ but, in the end, we will always agree on one thing; we love our Football Giants and want them to succeed. When they don't we wallow in whiney-arse sadness/anger/pissy-pants tantrums, whatever, but we do it together under the Big Blue colors.

Peace to you all!

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 07, 2024, 08:19:30 AMI am going to share my full opinion of Daniel Jones.

I agree with John Mara when he admitted the team has done everything possible to screw the man up.   I don't believe it's possible to accurately scout a quarterback under terrible conditions.   It's similar to scouting college QBs.   I think most would agree that, based on track record, scouting college QBs is a crap shoot.

As to Daniel Jones, I am less than optimistic (a bit less than 50/50) at this point.  Between a screwed-up professional development and beatings that can leave even strong men with post-traumatic stress, it's concerning if DJ will ever reach his full potential.  Beyond that, I have very serious concerns about his ability to stay healthy.  I appreciate his lack of protection contributed to his injuries, but as Gettleman said, "hurt guys get hurt."

I don't pretend to be able to predict the future. My best guess for this season (assuming a positive outcome) is that DJ will start out slow. Between needing to get used to playing with NFL-calibre protection, so many new receivers, and a new play-caller, it will take time for DJ to get comfortable. Assuming he (and key offensive elements) can stay healthy, the million-dollar question will be what DJ's ceiling will prove to be.

Pretty much agree. Giants ruined him as the Texans ruined Carr. Now can he rebound, we shall see. If unfortunately he can't he will be gone or a stop gap, but it was the Giants doing as they ruined the end of Elis career with that shitty oline since right about SB 46. Unreal it took more than a decade to still to try to get one thing done correctly.

DJ will either start fairly fast or as you said, potentially slow and steady. Depends on the oline, his weapons and trust in the whole of it all.

Can't break something that never really was.

I try and stick to the topic at hand rather than getting into an useless emotional argument with someone.

TO me Daniel Jones on the high end could be another Jared Goff. It's not a perfect analogy but there are similarities at least in my mind. A guy basically given up on by quite a few people including his own coach but when he came into a system that was effectively tailored for him with a good OC Ben Johnson (no relation to Bobby  ) and a strong OL combined with some legitimate receiving weapons he has become a pretty reliable if not above average QB. Can he win the big one? Maybe, maybe not. However he has made a Super Bowl and got to a championship game which I think we would all gladly sign up for for DJ right now.

Another ironically good comp could be Kerry Collins. Collins was not the sharpest most, anticipatory QB but when he had good pieces around him he was a QB you could win with (even if not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl with)

Daniel Jones has never even had an average overall offense to work with let alone an above average one. He has had nothing even close to what Goff and Collins have had to work with when they made the playoffs with their respective teams.

DO I think he is Tom Brady? Of course not but could he be something approaching  a Goff or Kerry in the right system? Possibly.

Another point to ponder if I may. Some of us are at whits end with this team , I get it. No one is pleased with the performance especially offensively. It's hard not to blame the general of the offense when it sucks. Nevertheless, this in my mind's eye is so much more than just on the QB. The other extenuating circumstances i.e lack of a good OL coach, lack of good OL talent, lack of good receivers and part of his career lack of good system were SO bad that I also at least partially believe Mara's proclamation that 'we have done everything to screw this kid up'.

It's 6 years in and normally I would have given up on the QB entirely by now. I could see Brown sucked by year 2. Kannel it was obvious was a pretty limited ceiling QB, Kent Graham etc. But this kid I think yes it was so darn bad that I am at least willing to give him to the end of the year with what finally, finally, finally (did I say finally?) looks to be a sound support system in place.

I blame ownership, them boggling the gm/coach situation from Shurmer to Daboll set this franchise back. Chicago, NY, 49ers, etc shed their Qb mistakes (that were drafted after Jones) and have already moved on and found new guys while we are asking the same questions we were asking in 2019. Shows how behind this franchise genuinely was when Schoen took it over.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 07, 2024, 11:58:53 AMI try and stick to the topic at hand rather than getting into an useless emotional argument with someone.

TO me Daniel Jones on the high end could be another Jared Goff. It's not a perfect analogy but there are similarities at least in my mind. A guy basically given up on by quite a few people including his own coach but when he came into a system that was effectively tailored for him with a good OC Ben Johnson (no relation to Bobby  ) and a strong OL combined with some legitimate receiving weapons he has become a pretty reliable if not above average QB. Can he win the big one? Maybe, maybe not. However he has made a Super Bowl and got to a championship game which I think we would all gladly sign up for for DJ right now.

Another ironically good comp could be Kerry Collins. Collins was not the sharpest most, anticipatory QB but when he had good pieces around him he was a QB you could win with (even if not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl with)

Daniel Jones has never even had an average overall offense to work with let alone an above average one. He has had nothing even close to what Goff and Collins have had to work with when they made the playoffs with their respective teams.

DO I think he is Tom Brady? Of course not but could he be something approaching  a Goff or Kerry in the right system? Possibly.

Another point to ponder if I may. Some of us are at whits end with this team , I get it. No one is pleased with the performance especially offensively. It's hard not to blame the general of the offense when it sucks. Nevertheless, this in my mind's eye is so much more than just on the QB. The other extenuating circumstances i.e lack of a good OL coach, lack of good OL talent, lack of good receivers and part of his career lack of good system were SO bad that I also at least partially believe Mara's proclamation that 'we have done everything to screw this kid up'.

It's 6 years in and normally I would have given up on the QB entirely by now. I could see Brown sucked by year 2. Kannel it was obvious was a pretty limited ceiling QB, Kent Graham etc. But this kid I think yes it was so darn bad that I am at least willing to give him to the end of the year with what finally, finally, finally (did I say finally?) looks to be a sound support system in place.

Jarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB.  He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det.  Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good.  Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs.  His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det.  Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.     

2017*    LAR    15    15    296    477    62.1    3804    28    7    100.5    PB
2018*    LAR    16    16    364    561    64.9    4688    32    12    101.1    PB
2019    LAR    16    16    394    626    62.9    4638    22    16    86.5   
2020    LAR    15    15    370    552    67    3952    20    13    90   
2021    DET    14    14    332    494    67.2    3245    19    8    91.5   
2022*    DET    17    17    382    587    65.1    4438    29    7    99.3    AP CPoY-6, PB
2023    DET    17    17    407    605    67.3    4575    30    12    97.9   
                                           

I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse.  I don't see any comparison with DJ...

BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level.  Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on.  That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.   

What I'm 100% sure of: Jones will continue to be divisive, whether he's on the squad in 2025 or not.

Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 12:28:00 PMJarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB.  He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det.  Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good.  Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs.  His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det.  Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.     

2017*    LAR    15    15    296    477    62.1    3804    28    7    100.5    PB
2018*    LAR    16    16    364    561    64.9    4688    32    12    101.1    PB
2019    LAR    16    16    394    626    62.9    4638    22    16    86.5   
2020    LAR    15    15    370    552    67    3952    20    13    90   
2021    DET    14    14    332    494    67.2    3245    19    8    91.5   
2022*    DET    17    17    382    587    65.1    4438    29    7    99.3    AP CPoY-6, PB
2023    DET    17    17    407    605    67.3    4575    30    12    97.9   
                                           

I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse.  I don't see any comparison with DJ...

BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level.  Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on.  That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.   

If Goff or Kerry were the QB of the Giants offense the last 6 years would their statistics be significantly better than DJ?

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 07, 2024, 02:32:28 PMIf Goff or Kerry were the QB of the Giants offense the last 6 years would their statistics be significantly better than DJ?

Yes! From a pure passing perspective, both are significantly more talented, hence their college and HS resumes. I feel confident saying yes, as it's almost impossible to do worse, from a passing production perspective.  Would Goff have the same aggregate numbers he enjoys today?  Absolutely not, but I do believe they would be better.

I have a few questions for you, uncle Micky:

1.  If QBs are merely a byproduct of, and completely dependent on their supporting casts, why do they make so much money? On average, 1 of 50+ players account for 10% of the teams available salary cap.  Why don't NFL teams simply spend the money on the line and WRs?

2. Considering DJ has never been an above average passer, at any level, what gives you confidence/hope he can become one after 3 years in college and 5 years in the pros?

3. What above average passing qualities does he have?  He has adequate arm strength, average accuracy, and well below average pocket awareness and processing speed.  From a physical/mental perspective, besides running, what does he do better than his contemporaries?

4.  After seeing Goffs numbers, do you agree he was a good Qb before arriving in Det?

Good conversation, Uncle Mickey!

If my math is correct, this is the 247th thread dedicated to Daniel Jones. In fact, most of the rebuttals here are verbatim from every single other thread on DJ over the past couple of years. I got an idea, let's do another DJ thread at least a hundred more times. Since life is short, and you can never get a single minute back, let's spend the rest of our lives arguing the pros and cons of our QB...and of course, repeat the same argument over and over and over and over and...