Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on September 07, 2024, 03:33:09 PMIf my math is correct, this is the 247th thread dedicated to Daniel Jones. In fact, most of the rebuttals here are verbatim from every single other thread on DJ over the past couple of years. I got an idea, let's do another DJ thread at least a hundred more times. Since life is short, and you can never get a single minute back, let's spend the rest of our lives arguing the pros and cons of our QB...and of course, repeat the same argument over and over and over and over and... 

Yeah, let's instead discuss who Kay Adam's is dating.  Is that a better use of our limited time?

This post was started by a poster who has yet to provide insight on DJ. To my knowledge, Uncle Micky hasn't weight in on the subject either.  While the conversation is old to you and I, it's fresh to them.  Why not let them partake like you and I have for the past few years?

To your mind, what should be discussed in a thread titled "My View on Daniel Jones"?

Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 12:28:00 PMJarred Goff is not a product of the system; he has ALWAYS been a good QB.  He was a Pro Bowler in 2 of his first 3 NFL seasons; in fact, statically, he was actually better in LA than Det.  Today, he's the exact same QB, which is to say VERY good.  Can he win a SB? IDK, in todays QB-driven environment, I simply don't know if he's dynamic enough to beat Patrick Mahomes, or the other superstar AFC QBs.  His prior HC didn't think so; hence, the trade to Det.  Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Goff has been, and is currently a very good NFL QB. To your point, I don't see how a 3x Pro Bowler, 5-star HS recruit, and prolific college passer even remotely compares to DJ.     

2017*    LAR    15    15    296    477    62.1    3804    28    7    100.5    PB
2018*    LAR    16    16    364    561    64.9    4688    32    12    101.1    PB
2019    LAR    16    16    394    626    62.9    4638    22    16    86.5   
2020    LAR    15    15    370    552    67    3952    20    13    90   
2021    DET    14    14    332    494    67.2    3245    19    8    91.5   
2022*    DET    17    17    382    587    65.1    4438    29    7    99.3    AP CPoY-6, PB
2023    DET    17    17    407    605    67.3    4575    30    12    97.9   
                                           

I also think the comparison to Kerry Collins is far-fetched; like Goff, Collins was a pro bowler by year 2, he was also a 5-star HS recruit and prolific college passer. By his own admission, his biggest roadblock to success was substance abuse.  I don't see any comparison with DJ...

BL: DJ has never been a plus passer, at any level.  Thus, I don't see how he remotely compares to the QBs you listed. As you stated, he'll have this season to show he's the guy; however, anything less than PB/AP performance and I believe the Giants will move on.  That seems to be a bridge too far to cross, given his mental acuity to play the position.   

Just to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.

2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1

There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance.  I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third.  We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.

Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL.  Context matters.  And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 07, 2024, 08:14:33 PMJust to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.

2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1

There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance.  I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third.  We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.

Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL.  Context matters.  And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.

Your point is well taken, Rick. However, he still threw for 4700 yards that season.  To that point, there was a drop off, but let's not pretend he didn't have an above average season.   The point being, you can still be a productive passer playing behind a less than ideal oline.

Just win!

Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 07, 2024, 08:14:33 PMJust to provide a little context, here are the yearly rankings of his OLs.

2017 6
2018 1
2019 31
2020 3
2021 13
2022 3
2023 1

There's a pretty strong correlation between the ranking of his OL and Goff's performance.  I don't think his numbers would be nearly as good if his OLs had ranked in the bottom third.  We see a significant drop in his performance in 2019, the one year he played behind a Giants' level OL.

Maybe it's just easier to be a good NFL QB when you play behind a good OL.  Context matters.  And that's not even comparing his WR weapons with the Giants'.

That is a frequent problem.  You often see a bunch of production stats quoted or cited with no mention or consideration of the 3 pillars of support.   I have been told no one (or precious few) believes a QB's production isn't impacted by the support he receives, yet citing stats without that context requires the assumption that the support a QB is provided doesn't impact production.

Quote from: kingm56 on September 07, 2024, 03:08:34 PMYes! From a pure passing perspective, both are significantly more talented, hence their college and HS resumes. I feel confident saying yes, as it's almost impossible to do worse, from a passing production perspective.  Would Goff have the same aggregate numbers he enjoys today?  Absolutely not, but I do believe they would be better.

I have a few questions for you, uncle Micky:

1.  If QBs are merely a byproduct of, and completely dependent on their supporting casts, why do they make so much money? On average, 1 of 50+ players account for 10% of the teams available salary cap.  Why don't NFL teams simply spend the money on the line and WRs?

2. Considering DJ has never been an above average passer, at any level, what gives you confidence/hope he can become one after 3 years in college and 5 years in the pros?

3. What above average passing qualities does he have?  He has adequate arm strength, average accuracy, and well below average pocket awareness and processing speed.  From a physical/mental perspective, besides running, what does he do better than his contemporaries?

4.  After seeing Goffs numbers, do you agree he was a good Qb before arriving in Det?

Good conversation, Uncle Mickey!

I think we will just have to agree to disagree here Mr.King.

 I tend to believe the supporting cast was incredibly bad when you factor in OL coach, OL talent (that combo probably ranked absolute bottom of the league the moment Booby Johnson came here with Dabes and not much better years prior) . WRs over last 6 years hard to imagine would not rank in the bottom 5 or 6 teams and then a few years we had Jason Garrett as OC.

Talk about a stacked deck in the negative.

In any event, I think we ALL can agree we have improved moderately to substantially in all these areas especially if Bricillo is what we think he is.

Let's see what this week 1 'data point' shows us and we can circle back. 

Even in the early years of Eli, when he had bad showings, you still saw talent. There was hope...and most of all, he kept firing and slinging.

You felt the organization was on the upswing and in good hands. And TC, while a tyrant at times was a great coach.

I am not seeing that here. TC also gave more than BS in the post game presser