Big Blue Huddle

I've basically written off Evan Neal, but still have hope for JMS.  I am pleased to see improvement on his end.  Seems to still have a ways to go but at least it is a start.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 24, 2024, 11:58:58 AMI've basically written off Evan Neal, but still have hope for JMS.  I am pleased to see improvement on his end.  Seems to still have a ways to go but at least it is a start.

Joe,

A lot of us, including you, thought JMS needed a year to get physically bigger to play the demanding C position.  As you continues to get stronger, I think we'll see better play.  There's nothing wrong with his hand placement, lateral speed, and football intelligence.  He just needs to get stronger...

Quote from: kingm56 on September 24, 2024, 01:20:49 PMJoe,

A lot of us, including you, thought JMS needed a year to get physically bigger to play the demanding C position.  As you continues to get stronger, I think we'll see better play.  There's nothing wrong with his hand placement, lateral speed, and football intelligence.  He just needs to get stronger...

When I think of JMS, I think of Tyler Lindenbaum.  TL had great technique but was light (290) coming out of college to play center in the NFL.  He is now between 300 and 310 and is dominating as a center.  JMS was much bigger than TL but lacked strength as you noted.  If he got stronger as TL got heavier, maybe the results can be similar.  His problem is much more solvable than what is wrong with Neal.  We're pulling for him. 

Hopefully Neal sitting on the sideline is helping him get healthy and ready along with any practice reps.

Hoping if he ever steps on the field again for us he isnt a total disaster.

Quote from: MrGap92 on September 24, 2024, 02:57:19 PMHopefully Neal sitting on the sideline is helping him get healthy and ready along with any practice reps.

Hoping if he ever steps on the field again for us he isnt a total disaster.

Sitting on the sidelines won't improve his lateral agility or balance. 

Quote from: Philosophers on September 24, 2024, 02:54:43 PMWhen I think of JMS, I think of Tyler Lindenbaum.  TL had great technique but was light (290) coming out of college to play center in the NFL.  He is now between 300 and 310 and is dominating as a center.  JMS was much bigger than TL but lacked strength as you noted.  If he got stronger as TL got heavier, maybe the results can be similar.  His problem is much more solvable than what is wrong with Neal.  We're pulling for him. 

That's a great comparison, Joe; let's hope the results are similar.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 24, 2024, 03:51:21 PMSitting on the sidelines won't improve his lateral agility or balance. 

No, but hopefully he is getting some coaching, and getting healthy if not already.

If he has to play again, we need him to be better.

My general rule of thumb with players who are terrible as rookies is a simple one but it tends to work.

Very simply, you want to see some sort of clear improvement in year two. Ideally, you'd like to see a poor performing rookie "show signs" by late in his rookie season, as Andrew Thomas did, but what is really important is that a player who was simply awful as a rookie isn't awful again in year two. That's when you have an Evan Neal or Zack Wilson on your hands. Players who are horrid in their second season after a horrid rookie year are almost always simply bad players.

Improvement in year two doesn't mean the player has to suddenly be good. That would be nice, but it's not necessary. That's more year three. Year two is about showing clear improvement over year one. I'm really glad to see that JMS appears to be falling into this category. It didn't with Neal, and here we now are with him.

Quote from: MrGap92 on September 24, 2024, 04:05:12 PMNo, but hopefully he is getting some coaching, and getting healthy if not already.

If he has to play again, we need him to be better.

I'm struggling to see how coaching will improve his lateral agility; he looks slow and easily defeated by speed. I have severe reservation about Neal's ability to play in space.  It's not surprising the Oline improved with his absence, which is a huge cause for concern considering his replacement is a career journeymen who's already given up 3 sacks.  Still, he's better than Neal...

Quote from: kingm56 on September 24, 2024, 06:10:09 PMI'm struggling to see how coaching will improve his lateral agility; he looks slow and easily defeated by speed. I have severe reservation about Neal's ability to play in space.  It's not surprising the Oline improved with his absence, which is a huge cause for concern considering his replacement is a career journeymen who's already given up 3 sacks.  Still, he's better than Neal...

I never said it would help with the agility, I said no, in agreement with the previous post. But there are some things he can do better, but hopefully he doesn't have to take snaps at T again and its a moot point. By the time Eleumenor is a free agent, he will be too.

I am in agreement with both of you on his physical limitations, I just meant I hope he is improving in whatever way he can, in case knock on wood he is back on the field at some point.

Quote from: MrGap92 on September 25, 2024, 08:06:50 AMI never said it would help with the agility, I said no, in agreement with the previous post. But there are some things he can do better, but hopefully he doesn't have to take snaps at T again and its a moot point. By the time Eleumenor is a free agent, he will be too.

I am in agreement with both of you on his physical limitations, I just meant I hope he is improving in whatever way he can, in case knock on wood he is back on the field at some point.

The other thing I have questioned with Neal is his anticipation of the snap.  I can't tell if part of his problem is that he moves a split second too late which is just as bad as being slow.  If he anticipates late and is slow laterally, then it's a double whammy.

Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2024, 09:26:56 AMThe other thing I have questioned with Neal is his anticipation of the snap.  I can't tell if part of his problem is that he moves a split second too late which is just as bad as being slow.  If he anticipates late and is slow laterally, then it's a double whammy.

I cannot speak to the reason but he is definitely slow out of his stance.  Its the opposite of Lane Johnson who looks like he is committing a false start on almost every play. 

I have heard a number of retired OL talk about how knowing the snap count is the biggest advantage the OL get.  And it seems like Neal is not reacting until the guy standing opposite of him moves.  Does he not hear well in his left ear?  Wouldn't that be something to find out later....

Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2024, 09:26:56 AMThe other thing I have questioned with Neal is his anticipation of the snap.  I can't tell if part of his problem is that he moves a split second too late which is just as bad as being slow.  If he anticipates late and is slow laterally, then it's a double whammy.

That's exactly my thinking - bad anticipation / poor recognition, (related), in addition to being slow laterally. When I was a JV and later a varsity basketball coach we would often put in extra work with the kids who had poorer anticipation/recognition, and with an emphasis on agility drills and repetition we could usually "speed them up" a bit. Of course we could not make a physically slower kid into one of the faster kids. But having said that, I would assume by now coaches have gotten all they can out of Neal relative to anticipation/recognition, and what's left is that he's simply too physically slow to be an effective tackle at the NFL level. I'd love for him to prove me wrong though.

Quote from: Sem on September 25, 2024, 11:47:24 AMThat's exactly my thinking - bad anticipation / poor recognition, (related), in addition to being slow laterally. When I was a JV and later a varsity basketball coach we would often put in extra work with the kids who had poorer anticipation/recognition, and with an emphasis on agility drills and repetition we could usually "speed them up" a bit. Of course we could not make a physically slower kid into one of the faster kids. But having said that, I would assume by now coaches have gotten all they can out of Neal relative to anticipation/recognition, and what's left is that he's simply too physically slow to be an effective tackle at the NFL level. I'd love for him to prove me wrong though.

Part of anticipation is listening and concentrating to the QB.  Does his mind wander so he is slow due to that then moves once the defender moves or does he simply not process from his hearing to his brain the snap then have to move?

Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 21, 2024, 12:57:42 AMHis PFF grade in 2023 was 41.4 and he gave up five sacks.

However, his PFF grade in 2024 has jumped to 60.4, and in two games he has given up zero sacks.

Let's see if he can continue to steadily improve, if so he can be a good player for the Giants for the next ten years.

link

Im not sure he'll ever be an all pro, he but seems like a capable guy who is going to get bigger stronger smarter and more experienced. he's only in year 2. he's one of the the least of my worries.