Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on October 21, 2024, 11:21:28 AMThat's clearly not what I said or suggested. However, I understand your views of the GM and HC are less than stellar and you're going to see what you choose. The reason Barkley is not a Giant is because Schoen stuck to his guns. So to think that I'm suggesting he's weak is way off target.

You are right to call out Banks on that ONE PLAY but it's extremely unfair to paint the rest of the players in that same light because of one guy. That's like saying Nabers won't be good because Jones isn't.

One bad game out of seven doesn't tell me that the defense is a problem this year. Philly and Dallas have owned us for the past 10+ years.

So what are you saying about Schoen and Daboll signing Jones to a multi-year contract?   Did Mara force that signing, or was Schoen not strong enough to stand up to the owner when he "suggested" that they should try to keep Jones?   The signing was made by Schoen and Daboll, and there doesn't appear to be an alternative explanation that has Schoen looking like a good GM and absolves him of the responsibility of signing Jones.

Quote from: Philosophers on October 21, 2024, 10:59:01 AMEvery owner gives their opinions on players, talent, etc.  They all are involved.  Stop thinking that what Mara does is unusual in football.

Yup. That's all businesses, all walks of life. A good GM (any business) knows when to stand their ground and give the appropriate pushback. If Schoen disagreed with anything Mara said, but was unable to have the presence and backbone to go a different direction, that means he's not suited for the job.

In any event, we know most of this is BS. Anyone who saw Hard Knocks knows Mara wanted to keep Barkley and he's not here anymore. Schoen got his way. This is Schoen's roster.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 21, 2024, 11:25:07 AMSo what are you saying about Schoen and Daboll signing Jones to a multi-year contract?   Did Mara force that signing, or was Schoen not strong enough to stand up to the owner when he "suggested" that they should try to keep Jones?   The signing was made by Schoen and Daboll, and there doesn't appear to be an alternative explanation that has Schoen looking like a good GM and absolves him of the responsibility of signing Jones.

Surely you're not that dense, Rich. You throw stuff out there like "was Schoen not strong enough" and "...absolves him of the responsibility of signing Jones" as if you don't know these things aren't black and white but very nuanced.

As I said, you have your views and they aren't likely to change regardless of what I say.

I'm out. 

Quote from: 4 Aces on October 21, 2024, 11:25:46 AMYup. That's all businesses, all walks of life. A good GM (any business) knows when to stand their ground and give the appropriate pushback. If Schoen disagreed with anything Mara said, but was unable to have the presence and backbone to go a different direction, that means he's not suited for the job.

In any event, we know most of this is BS. Anyone who saw Hard Knocks knows Mara wanted to keep Barkley and he's not here anymore. Schoen got his way. This is Schoen's roster.

This is why it's important for a GM to have a vision for the team and a team-building philosophy. A good GM has that and all his decisions are made through that lens.  When you have a good vision and philosophy, a GM doesn't need to so much "stand up" to the owner, as he should be able to explain (in context to the team vision that earned him the job) why the decision is the best one.  He should be able to "sell" the owner on his decisions more than butt heads.

Quote from: T200 on October 21, 2024, 11:32:47 AMSurely you're not that dense, Rich. You throw stuff out there like "was Schoen not strong enough" and "...absolves him of the responsibility of signing Jones" as if you don't know these things aren't black and white but very nuanced.

As I said, you have your views and they aren't likely to change regardless of what I say.

I'm out. 

Tim,

There certainly are many aspects of life that are nuanced and not black and white.  However, in football, there are things that are black and white.   You sign Daniel Jones to a multi-year contract and pass on drafting a QB for three seasons, that isn't one of them.   Someone is accountable for that decision, and that buck happens to stop in the office of GM Joe Schoen (assuming he can fit in with all the guys who seem to like to hang out there).

Quote from: Philosophers on October 21, 2024, 10:59:01 AMEvery owner gives their opinions on players, talent, etc.  They all are involved.  Stop thinking that what Mara does is unusual in football.

This is a red herring. That John Mara voices his opinions is far less toxic than the way the Mara family treats the Giants organization like a country club with Chris Mara, Tim McDonnell and others holding executive positions despite demonstrated incompetence. Ronnie Barnes' time has also come. The Giants' front office is a pasture of inept sacred cows.

My issue with giving Schoen any sort of pass or leniency for his decisions on the basis that Mara had some sort of insurmountable influence over him is that Schoen was a highly sought after GM candidate when he was hired. He was pretty much at the top of the list. He could have gone to another team that year, or he could have waited a year if he didn't like the opportunities. This wasn't a Gettleman situation where there was only one team in the league (us) that had even one iota of interest in him. Schoen had plenty of opportunities.

So with that in mind, there is no way in hell that he should have taken a job where the owner would either be calling the big shots or exerting so much influence over him that he had limited say in major decisions. That's on him for either taking such a job or for not standing his ground once he took it. The Jones signing is 100% on him in my book. If he thought it was a bad idea he should have aired his view loudly, and if Mara overruled him he should have been prepared to walk away. The fact that he didn't do any of that puts it on him.

BTW, I was extremely high on the Schoen hire when he was brought in and was subsequently supportive of him for a long time. And there are still thing I like about him and some of the moves he has made. But there is no way I am going to absolve him of the Jones contract. Not even partially.

Quote from: TONKA56 on October 21, 2024, 04:42:00 PMThis is a red herring. That John Mara voices his opinions is far less toxic than the way the Mara family treats the Giants organization like a country club with Chris Mara, Tim McDonnell and others holding executive positions despite demonstrated incompetence. Ronnie Barnes' time has also come. The Giants' front office is a pasture of inept sacred cows.

Different than other families involved with their team the Yorks with the 49ers, Jones with Dallas, Kraft family, Bowlens with the Broncos, etc.?  Nepotism everywhere.

I mean Jerry Jones wont even fire himself as GM of his team in spite of the personnel mistakes he's made.

The biggest problems the Giants have are that they can't pick enough good talent and can't nail the most important decisions.

Quote from: Philosophers on October 21, 2024, 05:55:24 PMDifferent than other families involved with their team the Yorks with the 49ers, Jones with Dallas, Kraft family, Bowlens with the Broncos, etc.?  Nepotism everywhere.

I mean Jerry Jones wont even fire himself as GM of his team in spite of the personnel mistakes he's made.

The biggest problems the Giants have are that they can't pick enough good talent and can't nail the most important decisions.

Agree to disagree.