Big Blue Huddle

What I don't get is; the dude played 4 years of college football; he was going to come back and play a fifth year ; why didn't he declare for the draft?

He was like a Devito type that was older ; hung around college ; and needed the extra year (s) to get better, and he made great strides as a 5 year senior to become a 1st round pick? Kinda rare no? i would those types are undrafted free agents.

Lots of teams had an interest he claims ; so it wasn't the Giants doing something weird. Even  Browns HC at the time Bill B. said he was going to take him with the 13th overall pick in the real subsequent draft.
 

The other weird thing is -- were roster rules different then? Or was Dave Brown practice squad /called up as a rookie when Simms and Hos got hurt--or were they carrying 3 QBs ?

I was looking at some NFL Sup drafts since then -- no one uses a freaking first round pick...

 You know what I remember of this draft. After the Giants picked him, Jimmy Johnson was being int reviewed and when he was asked what he thought of the Giants drafting Brown he started to giggle and basically couldn't stop. I think we all got the message.

So what should we conclude; George Young was just as foolish to have invested a 1st Round pick for a Duke QB, 32 years ago as was Dave Gettleman just 6 years ago? Is there a lesson to be learned other than that there was little difference in the risk/reward in drafting a Quarterback back then than there is now?

Cheers! 

@ Painter

I have no idea. Just curious his draft history and, why he was never drafted. And then all of a sudden in his Super Sr. year he is suddenly a top 15 pick

Although I think George Young can be more forgiven. A Duke QB then was an unknown commodity given the coaching back then. Gettlemen was a lazy GM who picked jones because of the senior bowl and the Cutcliffe connection. They also moved on a late faster despite being a in a pre cap league / no free agency league.

Quote from: Fletch on October 26, 2024, 11:08:32 AMWhat I don't get is; the dude played 4 years of college football; he was going to come back and play a fifth year ; why didn't he declare for the draft?

He was like a Devito type that was older ; hung around college ; and needed the extra year (s) to get better, and he made great strides as a 5 year senior to become a 1st round pick? Kinda rare no? i would those types are undrafted free agents.

Lots of teams had an interest he claims ; so it wasn't the Giants doing something weird. Even  Browns HC at the time Bill B. said he was going to take him with the 13th overall pick in the real subsequent draft.
 

The other weird thing is -- were roster rules different then? Or was Dave Brown practice squad /called up as a rookie when Simms and Hos got hurt--or were they carrying 3 QBs ?

I was looking at some NFL Sup drafts since then -- no one uses a freaking first round pick...

3 QBs? The Giants carried 4 in 92! Kent Graham was 3rd on the depth chart. Yes the rules were different but no way was Brown getting waived to the PS after being taken in the 1st round which is no different than today. His long hold out is probably why Graham made the team as the 3rd Qb.

Quote from: TDToomer on October 26, 2024, 10:21:23 PM3 QBs? The Giants carried 4 in 92! Kent Graham was 3rd on the depth chart. Yes the rules were different but no way was Brown getting waived to the PS after being taken in the 1st round which is no different than today. His long hold out is probably why Graham made the team as the 3rd Qb.

Kent Graham looked head and heels better than Brown from the get-go which is why he was the backup for most of that disastrous season. In 1993, after Reeves took over, and immediately named Simms his starter, he decided to rotate both Graham and Brown as backups since both were "about equal" at that point.

In essence, Graham played as well as, or better than Brown when the two competed for the starting role. What's ironic is that, after the Giants moved on from Brown in 1998, they brought Kent Graham back to serve as an insurance policy for Danny Kanell should he have a form reversal in 1998, which he inevitably did. It was the beginning of a musical chairs at the QB position which started with Brown in '97, who went down due to injury, but Kanell came in and had the team winning so they just stuck with him. Brown leaves in '98, is replaced with his old competitor Graham. Kanell gets off to a shaky start in '98, is ultimately replaced by Graham, who then goes on to upset the then-undefeated Broncos, wins nearly every game the rest of the way to pull the team to 8-8. The Giants dump Kanell and pick up Kerry Collins. Now Graham feels the pressure from the sideline. He starts the season unimpressively and is ultimately replaced by Collins. In one start, Collins ends the Giants' drought of QBs not throwing for 300 or more yards in a game since Phil Simms. Collins finishes the year and is anointed QB. Graham moves on again while the Giants pick up Dallas' backup QB, and NJ native, Jason Garrett, and the Giants begin the new millennium with the old "ny" logo on their helmets, a grass field at Giants Stadium, and a surprise season which sees them end up in Super Bowl XXXV. They lose that game and, in their disappointment, vow to work to get back, but they never do. After four seasons at the helm, Collins is injured and never plays for the Giants again. A new regime enters and works a draft day deal to bring Eli Manning to the Giants. Four years later, the young Manning QB lifts the Lombardi over his head, holding back tears, to complete a journey unlike anything any NFL player has experienced before. Finally, from the fleeting moments Parcells was carried off the field in Tampa, as a two-time NFL Champion Head Coach, to the Gatorade Bucket dousing Tom Coughlin after the greatest upset in Super Bowl history, the Giants returned to the top of the hill once again with their quarterback and defense leading the way.

When the Giants Super Bowl winning quarterbacks needed to be replaced, the team never came close to finding the answer. It wasn't Dave Brown, Kent Graham, Stan White or even Tommy Maddox, or Daniel Jones, Geno Smith, Alex Tanney, or even Tommy "Chicken Cutlets."

If you go back into the history books, and look at teams who won championships with their quarterback, and their reserve QB eventually leads the team in the future to another championship, the list of teams is pretty small. What teams come to mind for you?

One would be the Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers.

Another might be the San Francisco 49ers with Joe Montana and Steve Young.

How about the most obvious one for us? The New York Football Giants with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler?

Maybe the longest succession of passing the torch took place in Washington under Joe Gibbs where, under his watch, Joe Theismann passed to Jay Schroeder and Doug Williams with the latter winning the big one in Super Bowl XXII, to Mark Rypien grabbing the baton and winning it all four years later. That might be the most impressive championship succession plan of them all.

I'm not sure the Raiders would have counted Jim Plunkett the backup to Kenny Stabler in 1978, since he was technically the third QB that season, but after Kenny Stabler went to the Oilers, and John Madden retired, and handed the reins over to Tom Flores, AND one season ending injury to Dan Pastorini, Plunkett finally took the stage and re-wrote his career into one of a two-time Super Bowl Champion. So, from "the Snake" to Jim Plunkett, why not, another torch passed between Championship Quarterbacks.

My point is that with many of these succession plans with a champion leaving, the replacement has a very difficult time living up to expectations and, in most cases, never will.

So, why is it such as surprise then that Dave Brown and Daniel Jones, successors to the Super Bowl winning QBs of the Giants, have not gotten it done?

Even if teams have a proverbial "Commitment to Excellence," it's always far easier to get to the top than it is to stay there.

I think there's a psychological element to winning in New York and, especially, with the Giants being a flagship franchise that has been a steward for the healthy growth and financial equity of all teams in the NFL. The pressure to produce in the NY Metro area is high and, consequently, teams gun for the NY clubs harder than others, in most cases.

When the Giants win a Super Bowl, or the Rangers win a Stanley Cup, it is almost the equivalent of winning ten Lombardi Trophies and ten of Lord Stanley's precious chalices. It seems that much harder to win in NY than in other places around the country. To win, you need battle-hardened professionals with a relentless determination to overcome all odds. Not to belittle that statement in the least, but how many professional players have been able to bring that, when it is needed most, in the biggest games of their lives, in a venue watched in person and on media in the millions throughout the world. In the midst of all that, the next move the quarterback makes might be the one which determines the fate of the game, the team and how he measures up against everything he set out to do when the season began.

Now go back to 1992 again. The Giants had two older QBs on the roster, let go a third (i.e. Matt Cavanaugh), and were an 8-8 team with no direct path to a big name QB. They drafted Kent Graham from Ohio State in the eighth round. Well, the Giants weren't planning on winning Super Bowls with Graham, but at least they had a QB who could throw the ball down field, could be counted on by the Dolphins to extinguish teams with undefeated records late in the season, and was thought enough of to be brought back to the Giants by a different regime after the regime who drafted him sent him packing.

But Dave Brown, all I can say is thank you to Rich Eisen for taking the time to interview him a few years ago. What a fine human being the man turned out to be and I'm very glad to know he has been able to move on from football with a successful career and looks back with no animosity whatsoever. Classy man. When it is Daniel Jones' turn, I wish him only the same and that he moves forward, never dwell on this past, and that life treats him well.

As for the Supplemental Draft, after Dave Brown, no team has since invested a first round pick for a supplemental selection. In fact, the Supplemental Draft has not been held in four years as no players signed up for it. The Giants, meanwhile, have used the Supplemental Draft a couple of times since the Dave Brown selection but for lower draft picks.

Peace!

Kerry Collins was much better than Brown; Kanell; Graham; Maddox etc. He did lead the Giants to a NFC championship and another playoff appearance; comeback victories. A solid  NFL starter .despite his limitations and issues.

Quote from: spiderblue43 on October 27, 2024, 08:35:39 AMKerry Collins was much better than Brown; Kanell; Graham; Maddox etc. He did lead the Giants to a NFC championship and another playoff appearance; comeback victories. A solid  NFL starter despite his limitations and issues.

Whenever I hear the name Kerry Collins, the first thing I think of is how our fellow Giants fans kept referring to him as "The Deer in the Headlights". He nevertheless had a very long (19 year/17 Active) NFL career even longer than his successor Eli Manning's.

While it included just 5 winning seasons, 2 were particularly notable. The first was in 2000 in leading the Giants 3rd ever trip to a Super Bowl (sandwiched between 2 losing seasons) and then again making the playoffs 8 years later at age 36 losing both times to the Baltimore Ravens.

Cheers!

@ Kanto

I loved Phil Simms but the idea of a guy who was benched twice in his career and won a SB 9 years before retiring ; I hardly think that means Dave Brown as his successor and should be in the hunt for another SB. The same holds true for Hostetler who was already a Raider by the time Brown played here for 2 years and threw 7 passes all together before starting here in '94.

The Giants were always a pretty good team most years ; the fact is its just pretty hard to win championships let alone consistently do so.

I would think Jordan Love as an example. I might think the Packers can win something with him, but maybe not. It has nothing to do with Rodgers...

Just to expand on this story, and let's bring in Jim GFassel to this discussion. Myself, I always disliked Fassel right from the get-go. WHY you may ask, When George Young decided to get rid of Simms and anoint Brown as our starting QB (to justify his #1 pick in the supplemental draft), he hired Fassel with the understanding that Brown was going to be our starter, from day one. Fassel in his first-ever news conference when he was appointed HC, made that statement also, Brown is our starter, without ever seeing him play, without evaluating any other QB on our roster just because that was the agreement for him to become HC of the Giants. I hated Brown and as soon as he was anointed our starter by Fassel, I hated him also.
When it finally became clear, several years later that Brown simply couldn't play at an NFL level, he began the QB shuffle as was mentioned, and finally settled on a slightly imperfect Kerry Collins. (Remember Collins was a 'bad' boy for his comments to his old team about race). He was still a very good QB and helped put the Giants into another SB. Add to that my second reason for hating Fassel was the way he coached, basically not to lose instead of being aggressive. His game plan for that SB was a disaster and because of that, we were thumped. I don't care how good that Baltimore defense was, we never attacked it, not once. We played scared and that was on Fassel.

Maybe I m missing the timeline but, Fassel was there as an assistant coach QB coach since 91/he must have have seen him at Duke even when the Giants expressed interest in him; let alone as backup as a rookie and the subsequent year.. Dan Reeves was head coach when Brown started. Fassel became coach in 97 when I think Brown was long gone or Kerry Collins was starting then.

In any case, it was one thing if you're George Young and say "look Brown gets his shot ; I promised his family / we agreed in the Supplemental draft / he sat for 2 years / he desserves his shot ". It is quite another when you are silver sppon owners son who is doing this after seeing a guy play 5 years.

Does anyone kn

Quote from: Fletch on October 26, 2024, 11:08:32 AMWhat I don't get is; the dude played 4 years of college football; he was going to come back and play a fifth year ; why didn't he declare for the draft?

Did he play 4 years? I thought he graduated from college after 3 years. He applied for the supplemental draft after he knew he would be able to graduate early.

Quote from: LennG on October 27, 2024, 01:38:20 PMJust to expand on this story, and let's bring in Jim GFassel to this discussion. Myself, I always disliked Fassel right from the get-go. WHY you may ask, When George Young decided to get rid of Simms and anoint Brown as our starting QB (to justify his #1 pick in the supplemental draft), he hired Fassel with the understanding that Brown was going to be our starter, from day one. Fassel in his first-ever news conference when he was appointed HC, made that statement also, Brown is our starter, without ever seeing him play, without evaluating any other QB on our roster just because that was the agreement for him to become HC of the Giants. I hated Brown and as soon as he was anointed our starter by Fassel, I hated him also.
When it finally became clear, several years later that Brown simply couldn't play at an NFL level, he began the QB shuffle as was mentioned, and finally settled on a slightly imperfect Kerry Collins. (Remember Collins was a 'bad' boy for his comments to his old team about race). He was still a very good QB and helped put the Giants into another SB. Add to that my second reason for hating Fassel was the way he coached, basically not to lose instead of being aggressive. His game plan for that SB was a disaster and because of that, we were thumped. I don't care how good that Baltimore defense was, we never attacked it, not once. We played scared and that was on Fassel.

Fassel benched Brown after 6 games into his head coaching career. It was Reeves who was forced to start Brown after Young cut Simms in 94 as he rarely had any competition.

Quote from: TDToomer on October 27, 2024, 04:23:24 PMFassel benched Brown after 6 games into his head coaching career. It was Reeves who was forced to start Brown after Young cut Simms in 94 as he rarely had any competition.

Reeves knew Brown sucked and was all over the place looking for anyone who could place, including the infamous Tommy Maddox experiment. Reeves had no choice as at that time Brown was his only option. That was one of the main reasons Reeves got canned, he hated to start Brown and would have tried to start his grandfather if he could. Young hired
Fassell with the caveat that Brown be his starter and that happened. What happened after that who really knows? Brown got hurt and Kannel came in and took us to the playoffs and Fassell became COTY.
 I still remember one unnamed OL saying they played their hearts out for Kannel and they simply disliked Brown. There were rumors that they never blocked hard for Brown leading to him getting hurt.
But Fassell was hired under the condition Brown was his starter from day one.

Quote from: LennG on October 28, 2024, 11:08:06 AMReeves knew Brown sucked and was all over the place looking for anyone who could place, including the infamous Tommy Maddox experiment. Reeves had no choice as at that time Brown was his only option. That was one of the main reasons Reeves got canned, he hated to start Brown and would have tried to start his grandfather if he could. Young hired
Fassell with the caveat that Brown be his starter and that happened. What happened after that who really knows? Brown got hurt and Kannel came in and took us to the playoffs and Fassell became COTY.
 I still remember one unnamed OL saying they played their hearts out for Kannel and they simply disliked Brown. There were rumors that they never blocked hard for Brown leading to him getting hurt.
But Fassell was hired under the condition Brown was his starter from day one.

I know Kannel came in to finish a game for Brown as a rookie in 96 under Reeves but Brown got to keep his starting job the next week. I recall Kannel being surprised at how uptight things were in the huddle and tried to loosen them up. I suppose that carried over into the 97 season when he got a 2nd chance, for good this time. Brown never got his job back when he was healthy.

Parcells was almost hired instead of Fassel. Would he really have taken the job if he was told he had to start Dave Brown?