Big Blue Huddle

Has anyone suggested he see a doctor and at least have blood work done. There are real medical possibilities that could make him feel weak without being aware of an underlying condition.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2024, 08:01:03 AM@DaveBrown74 @LennG @y_so_blu  (the guys who liked this comment)

I think it's fair to criticize DJ's shortcomings.   It's more than fair.  However, I do take issue when people bash a player on the Giants and suggest he is just as bad a measurably terrible QB.

Consider:

QB Rating

Jones- 79.5
Richardson- 57.2

QBR

Jones- 44.6
Richardson- 38.4

PFF

Jones- 66.1
Richardson- 48.7

Yards

Jones- 1706
Richardson- 958

TDs

Jones- 6
Richardson- 4

INTs

Jones- 5
Richardson- 7



I think it shows a bias against the Giants starting QB when you suggest they are the same or performing the same.  Looking at the PFF lineup grades, it's fair (especially in the light of injuries) to say that Richardson enjoys a stronger supporting case than DJ does.

Rich,

Just so I understand the premise of the analysis you have done here:

Am I correct that you are taking a 10 game NFL sample of Richardson and comparing it to a 5.5 year sample of Jones and suggesting the two should be treated as apples to apples?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2024, 10:19:32 PMRich,

Just so I understand the premise of the analysis you have done here:

Am I correct that you are taking a 10 game NFL sample of Richardson and comparing it to a 5.5 year sample of Jones and suggesting the two should be treated as apples to apples?

What I am pointing out is that suggesting Jones is like Richardson is not supported by fact.  The reality is that Jones (even in this season which isn't his best) is a significantly better QB

Quote from: LennG on October 29, 2024, 07:41:54 PMAnd then there were all the lovers of that pick who insisted that if we didn't draft Jones, there were several other teams all set to pounce on him. Even our own 'homer' Phil Simms said it, trying to justify Jones at #6.
Jones was, at best, a late 1st round pick and even that would have been a stretch.

I don't believe you have Simms' take correct. Jones was MVP of the Senior Bowl and lit up the Combine with his arm talent and athleticism. Jones was well known to NFL scouts. Mel Kiper had Jones as the highest rated QB prospect and mocked him to the Giants at 6 months before the Draft. Kiper also repeatedly said his contacts in the league were all high on Jones.

As to Simms - after the Draft,he was on WFAN morning show with Boomer Esiason. He told  him that he knew the four teams who were poised to take Jones before 6. But he declined to publicly air who those teams were but did say he would tell him off air.  DG explained that he knew of multiple teams who were going to take Jones before 10. This was corroborated by Jones' coach and at least four other respected NFL media types


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Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2024, 08:01:03 AM@DaveBrown74 @LennG @y_so_blu  (the guys who liked this comment)

I think it's fair to criticize DJ's shortcomings.   It's more than fair.  However, I do take issue when people bash a player on the Giants and suggest he is just as bad a measurably terrible QB.

Consider:

QB Rating

Jones- 79.5
Richardson- 57.2

QBR

Jones- 44.6
Richardson- 38.4

PFF

Jones- 66.1
Richardson- 48.7

Yards

Jones- 1706
Richardson- 958

TDs

Jones- 6
Richardson- 4

INTs

Jones- 5
Richardson- 7



I think it shows a bias against the Giants starting QB when you suggest they are the same or performing the same.  Looking at the PFF lineup grades, it's fair (especially in the light of injuries) to say that Richardson enjoys a stronger supporting case than DJ does.

Not only the PFF numbers Rich. People forget Jones threw 24 TDs in 12 games his rookie year. He was three shy of breaking a NFL rookie record until a high ankle sprain and injuries to several key offensive players hindered his record setting pace.

This Board and Giant fans were happy as clams that the Giants finally found their franchise QB. Richardson has never displayed any NFL arm talent in college or in the pros.


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Quote from: todge on November 02, 2024, 04:30:56 PMDG explained that he knew of multiple teams who were going to take Jones before 10.

This is utterly false. "Multiple teams" never reveal to anyone before draft day whom they intend to take.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 02, 2024, 04:40:42 PMThis is utterly false. "Multiple teams" never reveal to anyone before draft day whom they intend to take.

Then text Phil Simms and tell him he is a liar. He said it on a public radio station. You aren't privy to inside information like he is.  Phil has built a reputation for being honest and forthright.

You should also know that teams regularly communicate with head coaches and tell them  or even the player that they plan on drafting him at a certain point of the Draft. Cutcliffe knew who the teams were as well.


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Quote from: todge on November 02, 2024, 04:46:24 PMThen text Phil Simms and tell him he is a liar. He said it on a public radio station. You aren't privy to inside information like he is.  Phil has built a reputation for being honest and forthright.

You should also know that teams regularly communicate with head coaches and tell them  or even the player that they plan on drafting him at a certain point of the Draft. Cutcliffe knew who the teams were as well.


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Just because multiple morons were in the Jones hunt, doesn't make it a wise choice.

Quote from: todge on November 02, 2024, 04:38:59 PMNot only the PFF numbers Rich. People forget Jones threw 24 TDs in 12 games his rookie year. He was three shy of breaking a NFL rookie record until a high ankle sprain and injuries to several key offensive players hindered his record setting pace.

This Board and Giant fans were happy as clams that the Giants finally found their franchise QB. Richardson has never displayed any NFL arm talent in college or in the pros.


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I recall it MUCH differently than you do.

I do think most people were cautiously optimistic after Jones' rookie season. Everyone knew the fumbles were a problem, but he seemed to throw the ball very well. He took chances and pushed the ball downfield. For a rookie, he seemed promising.

Quote from: todge on November 02, 2024, 04:30:56 PMI don't believe you have Simms' take correct. Jones was MVP of the Senior Bowl and lit up the Combine with his arm talent and athleticism. Jones was well known to NFL scouts. Mel Kiper had Jones as the highest rated QB prospect and mocked him to the Giants at 6 months before the Draft. Kiper also repeatedly said his contacts in the league were all high on Jones.

Come on. Kyler Murray and Dwayne Haskins were Kiper's top two quarterbacks in 2019. Even Paul Schwartz, a useful mouthpiece for the Giants, noted recently that Jones was over-drafted because the "organization" (i.e. Mara) overvalued his non-football skills. Why are you pretending like he was some generational prospect people were chomping at the bit to get? He wasn't. He was a project at best, having to walk on to the team at Duke of all places. His arm talent was average--no one remarked it was amazing. Enough to get the job done? Sure, maybe. But when you stare down receivers all day and show no anticipation in your 6th year? Certainly not enough arm to overcome those deficiencies. He's a player with virtually zero football intelligence. A fossilizing Dave Gettleman drafted him because he was desperate to prove his own worth and show up everyone else in the league... and Gettleman was out of the NFL two years later after drafting Jones, with not a single organization seeking his services. What more evidence do you need?

Quote from: T200 on November 02, 2024, 10:02:14 PMI recall it MUCH differently than you do.

Me too.  Folks were very concerned about the 19 fumbles and the 6.6 YPA.  If there was any consensus it was that these 2 stats had to improve before he could be annointed a franchise QB, with the board split on whether they could be reduced. 

Interestingly, sacks were not the issue they would later become, as he was sacked 7.65%, the second lowest of his subsequent career.  And while he cut down both the fumbles and INTs significantly, he never raised the YPA by enough to matter.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 02, 2024, 11:23:20 PMCome on. Kyler Murray and Dwayne Haskins were Kiper's top two quarterbacks in 2019. Even Paul Schwartz, a useful mouthpiece for the Giants, noted recently that Jones was over-drafted because the "organization" (i.e. Mara) overvalued his non-football skills. Why are you pretending like he was some generational prospect people were chomping at the bit to get? He wasn't. He was a project at best, having to walk on to the team at Duke of all places. His arm talent was average--no one remarked it was amazing. Enough to get the job done? Sure, maybe. But when you stare down receivers all day and show no anticipation in your 6th year? Certainly not enough arm to overcome those deficiencies. He's a player with virtually zero football intelligence. A fossilizing Dave Gettleman drafted him because he was desperate to prove his own worth and show up everyone else in the league... and Gettleman was out of the NFL two years later after drafting Jones, with not a single organization seeking his services. What more evidence do you need?

The big question I remember about Jones was arm strength.  I personally bought into his arm being average (which it may be) and adequate for the NFL.

I think my mistake was not thinking about where he plays and how in the past there always mentions of needing a plus arm strength QB to deal with conditions. 

His deep ball regularly dies and causes receivers to have slow down or come back to the ball.  It's a limitation that may be alright in a domed stadium but definitely not where his home field currently is.