Big Blue Huddle

I dont believe Daboll is a vertical coach.  If he were DJ would be getting benched for all his checkdowns and not taking more chances.

Aggressiveness is a mindset.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 05, 2024, 03:50:22 PMI dont believe Daboll is a vertical coach.  If he were DJ would be getting benched for all his checkdowns and not taking more chances.

Aggressiveness is a mindset.

Not benching Jones does not mean Daboll is not a vertical coach.

That's like saying a Ferrari isn't a fast car because Jones can't drive a manual.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 04:39:18 PMNot benching Jones does not mean Daboll is not a vertical coach.

That's like saying a Ferrari isn't a fast car because Jones can't drive a manual.

No because if he really wanted to throw more vertically he'd put in a QB more willing to do so.  Also why is DJ not trending up in a huge way in more downfield attempts?  No HC pressure to do so.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 05, 2024, 10:10:21 PMNo because if he really wanted to throw more vertically he'd put in a QB more willing to do so.  Also why is DJ not trending up in a huge way in more downfield attempts?  No HC pressure to do so.

Daniel Jones is above league average in 20+ yard attempts and below average in corresponding completions. Even in light of Jones's very obvious deficiencies throwing deep, the Giants are still doing so. I could only imagine their deep throw rate if Jones was completing those passes at an average (or even above average!) rate. I wouldn't conflate throwing deep poorly with Daboll not wanting to, as the data shows otherwise.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 05, 2024, 10:10:21 PMNo because if he really wanted to throw more vertically he'd put in a QB more willing to do so.  Also why is DJ not trending up in a huge way in more downfield attempts?  No HC pressure to do so.

I've already expressed my theory on why Jones will remain the starter. Don't feel like typing it all out again.

There's a behind-the-scenes chess game and the winner gets a QB.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 05, 2024, 10:10:21 PMNo because if he really wanted to throw more vertically he'd put in a QB more willing to do so.  Also why is DJ not trending up in a huge way in more downfield attempts?  No HC pressure to do so.

I guess the question would be, did he go vertical when he had Josh Allen?  I don't know the answer.

My problem with Daboll is not that he limits his playbook to the ever-shortening list of things Daniel Jones can do well. It's his poor in-game decision making, and the fact that he tied himself to Jones after that first year when he didn't have to. I don't trust his judgment anymore.

Quote from: y_so_blu on November 06, 2024, 04:58:17 AMMy problem with Daboll is not that he limits his playbook to the ever-shortening list of things Daniel Jones can do well. It's his poor in-game decision making, and the fact that he tied himself to Jones after that first year when he didn't have to. I don't trust his judgment anymore.

I am typically against coaches doing double duty. I was skeptical of Daboll doing it. I can only speculate that his thinking was along the lines of, "If I'm going to get fired, it's going to be all on me." I get it but I really think he bit off more than he can chew. Not having a QB to run his offense is making things worse.

The issue with keeping Jones after that first year is a very delicate dynamic. You have a vocal owner who doesn't hide his love for and desire to keep certain players. You have a first year GM and HC who obviously are torn between keeping the QB the owner loves or getting rid of him to better the team. As much as the GM and HC want to dump Danny, it was even harder to convince the owner that that would be the right move on the heels of their first playoff win in 10 years.

Plenty of folks here rightfully surmised that the playoff win hurt the team more than it helped.

I see Daboll doing a good job scheming people open.  It's a complicated Offense, though and DJ just doesn't process quickly enough to get it to them. 

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 05, 2024, 10:28:14 PMDaniel Jones is above league average in 20+ yard attempts and below average in corresponding completions. Even in light of Jones's very obvious deficiencies throwing deep, the Giants are still doing so. I could only imagine their deep throw rate if Jones was completing those passes at an average (or even above average!) rate. I wouldn't conflate throwing deep poorly with Daboll not wanting to, as the data shows otherwise.

I guess I dont think of "above average" in deep throw attempts as aggressive.  If it were top 20% or 10% then yes.

Quote from: babywhales on November 05, 2024, 10:46:16 AMThe offense is designed around jones . 

His limited abilities massively limits what can be run.  That being said the teams inefficiencies to run the simple stuff is a sign of the limitations of personal and has to reflect on the at some level on the coach .

But the limited playbook and simplicity of the offense is directly related to Jones and not Daboll.

I disagree. None of us really know the actual reasons why the offense is not being productive.  There's not enough evidence to put it all on Jones and his supposed limited skills as you infer.

Jones threw 24 TD passes in 12 games his rookie year under Shurmur. He was three passes away from breaking NFL rookie records until a bad high ankle sprain and injuries to key offensive players stopped the offense. He has the NFL arm talent to make any throw.

So rather than pin this issue just on Jones, I have a conglomeration of things to consider:

First - teams are playing two deep safeties across the league. Mel Kiper is calling on the league to ban this defense because teams are resorting to short and intermediate passes which is what the defense is giving them.

Second - Daboll knows full well his OL is among the league's worst in pass protection. The Pittsburgh game was the greatest example - 7 hits, 10 hurries, 10 hits. There isn't a QB around who can go through his progressions with that. So instead Jones has to look for his primary target only. Daboll knows his OL sucks as well, so he has to call short/intermediate passes with such limited pocket time. As George Young stated many times "show me a struggling team and I'll show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
 
Third - the weapons are limited. The Giants couldn't get a 4th or a 5th round pick for Slayton. He is a bottom tier #2 receiver on this team with questionable hands. Robinson is the Z but brings little to the table in YAC and reliability. Nabers is double teamed every play. The tight ends are again bottom tier. Theo has dropped so many passes and is just learning the position. Bellinger is a no show.

Fourth - play calling is questionable. How many times have any of us called the plays ahead of time? When I watch the 49ers, there are all kinds of misdirection and schemes especially in the red zone.

Fifth - bad teams find different ways to lose games. Besides the QB, there are 21 other players, coaches, officials and breaks that affect the outcome of these games. DJ rose to 12th in QBR in the league after being "locked in" games 2-4. After the Pittsburgh debacle, he was the best player on the field for the Giants in the Washington game. 20-26 with three drops and a nullified TD due to a bogus call resulting in an elite 91.5 PFF score. The defense lost that game allowing them to punt only twice with no pressure on Daniels.

So many of you truly believe if we just change the QB, all will be well. If the Giants had their way, they would have traded up for Drake Maye. There would be no Nabers nor either Nubin or Tracy. Maye has been terrible in New England. So would the Giants be better this year with Maye? I would suggest no.

I agree it's time for Jones to go. He doesn't deserve the treatment he's receiving from just about everyone. But a cautionary tale - your team will not automatically be better with a rookie QB. It might actually be worse. Be careful ... you might get what you wish for.


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Quote from: todge on November 07, 2024, 10:35:01 PMI disagree. None of us really know the actual reasons why the offense is not being productive.  There's not enough evidence to put it all on Jones and his supposed limited skills as you infer.

Jones threw 24 TD passes in 12 games his rookie year under Shurmur. He was three passes away from breaking NFL rookie records until a bad high ankle sprain and injuries to key offensive players stopped the offense. He has the NFL arm talent to make any throw.

So rather than pin this issue just on Jones, I have a conglomeration of things to consider:

First - teams are playing two deep safeties across the league. Mel Kiper is calling on the league to ban this defense because teams are resorting to short and intermediate passes which is what the defense is giving them.

Second - Daboll knows full well his OL is among the league's worst in pass protection. The Pittsburgh game was the greatest example - 7 hits, 10 hurries, 10 hits. There isn't a QB around who can go through his progressions with that. So instead Jones has to look for his primary target only. Daboll knows his OL sucks as well, so he has to call short/intermediate passes with such limited pocket time. As George Young stated many times "show me a struggling team and I'll show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
 
Third - the weapons are limited. The Giants couldn't get a 4th or a 5th round pick for Slayton. He is a bottom tier #2 receiver on this team with questionable hands. Robinson is the Z but brings little to the table in YAC and reliability. Nabers is double teamed every play. The tight ends are again bottom tier. Theo has dropped so many passes and is just learning the position. Bellinger is a no show.

Fourth - play calling is questionable. How many times have any of us called the plays ahead of time? When I watch the 49ers, there are all kinds of misdirection and schemes especially in the red zone.

Fifth - bad teams find different ways to lose games. Besides the QB, there are 21 other players, coaches, officials and breaks that affect the outcome of these games. DJ rose to 12th in QBR in the league after being "locked in" games 2-4. After the Pittsburgh debacle, he was the best player on the field for the Giants in the Washington game. 20-26 with three drops and a nullified TD due to a bogus call resulting in an elite 91.5 PFF score. The defense lost that game allowing them to punt only twice with no pressure on Daniels.

So many of you truly believe if we just change the QB, all will be well. If the Giants had their way, they would have traded up for Drake Maye. There would be no Nabers nor either Nubin or Tracy. Maye has been terrible in New England. So would the Giants be better this year with Maye? I would suggest no.

I agree it's time for Jones to go. He doesn't deserve the treatment he's receiving from just about everyone. But a cautionary tale - your team will not automatically be better with a rookie QB. It might actually be worse. Be careful ... you might get what you wish for.


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Remember also people wanted to run Tom Coughlin out of town and we are still looking for his replacement.

Quote from: todge on November 07, 2024, 10:35:01 PMI agree it's time for Jones to go. He doesn't deserve the treatment he's receiving from just about everyone. But a cautionary tale - your team will not automatically be better with a rookie QB. It might actually be worse. Be careful ... you might get what you wish for.


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First, literally no one has claimed the team will "automatically be better with a rookie QB." That's a ridiculous strawman argument perpetuated by those who were dead wrong about DJ.  Secondly, it's going to be hard to do worse with a new QB:

2020: They averaged 17.5 points per game, ranking 31st in the NFL.
2021: The team averaged 15.2 points per game, again placing 31st.
2022: Their offense improved, averaging 21.5 points per game, which ranked around 18th.
2023: The average dropped to 15.6 points per game, leaving them back at 31st in scoring rankings.
2024: They currently average 15.4 points per game, leaving them 32d, which is dead last in the NFL.

Tell me @todge and @Giantleap56, how could the Giants possibly do worse with a new QB? They have finished dead last or next to dead last in scoring in 4 of the last 5 years.  Given the data above, your strawman argument just seems ridiculous and completely detected from reality, as it's almost impossible for the Giants to do worse; yet, here you are are pushing that narrative...

Quote from: todge on November 07, 2024, 10:35:01 PMI disagree. None of us really know the actual reasons why the offense is not being productive.  There's not enough evidence to put it all on Jones and his supposed limited skills as you infer.

Jones threw 24 TD passes in 12 games his rookie year under Shurmur. He was three passes away from breaking NFL rookie records until a bad high ankle sprain and injuries to key offensive players stopped the offense. He has the NFL arm talent to make any throw.

So rather than pin this issue just on Jones, I have a conglomeration of things to consider:

First - teams are playing two deep safeties across the league. Mel Kiper is calling on the league to ban this defense because teams are resorting to short and intermediate passes which is what the defense is giving them.

Second - Daboll knows full well his OL is among the league's worst in pass protection. The Pittsburgh game was the greatest example - 7 hits, 10 hurries, 10 hits. There isn't a QB around who can go through his progressions with that. So instead Jones has to look for his primary target only. Daboll knows his OL sucks as well, so he has to call short/intermediate passes with such limited pocket time. As George Young stated many times "show me a struggling team and I'll show you a team with a struggling offensive line".
 
Third - the weapons are limited. The Giants couldn't get a 4th or a 5th round pick for Slayton. He is a bottom tier #2 receiver on this team with questionable hands. Robinson is the Z but brings little to the table in YAC and reliability. Nabers is double teamed every play. The tight ends are again bottom tier. Theo has dropped so many passes and is just learning the position. Bellinger is a no show.

Fourth - play calling is questionable. How many times have any of us called the plays ahead of time? When I watch the 49ers, there are all kinds of misdirection and schemes especially in the red zone.

Fifth - bad teams find different ways to lose games. Besides the QB, there are 21 other players, coaches, officials and breaks that affect the outcome of these games. DJ rose to 12th in QBR in the league after being "locked in" games 2-4. After the Pittsburgh debacle, he was the best player on the field for the Giants in the Washington game. 20-26 with three drops and a nullified TD due to a bogus call resulting in an elite 91.5 PFF score. The defense lost that game allowing them to punt only twice with no pressure on Daniels.

So many of you truly believe if we just change the QB, all will be well. If the Giants had their way, they would have traded up for Drake Maye. There would be no Nabers nor either Nubin or Tracy. Maye has been terrible in New England. So would the Giants be better this year with Maye? I would suggest no.

I agree it's time for Jones to go. He doesn't deserve the treatment he's receiving from just about everyone. But a cautionary tale - your team will not automatically be better with a rookie QB. It might actually be worse. Be careful ... you might get what you wish for.


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I never said a rookie fixes everything.  I never said the problem was just Jones. 

Make no mistake about it, Jones with a line or another QB with a line and I'm going with another. Go get a vet.

Jones makes so many mistakes it is unbelievable.
He makes mistakes presnap when no pressure is present and post snap during the play.
Presnap in not recognizing overflow pressure, not recognizing hot reads, not sending his personal in motion, and not adjusting coverage. Jones makes post snap mistake and lets not pretend he is always under pressure because he makes plenty of mistakes with little to no pressure.  Although I will admit he is slightly better this year, Jones creates pressure for himself and actually makes his poor line worse with sack totals. He leaves open receivers all over the field.  Checkdowns at such an alarming rate to play it save. Makes rookie mistakes on placement of key and critical passes.  Despite his completion % passes on cross and drag routes are often on the back hip negating any chance for YAC. Stupid decisions in desperation... I can go on and on


I am not just blaming Jones, so just because I invoked his name doesn't mean I soley blame him.  That being said the offense is designed around his limitations and I should say in the past, the limitations of the O line. He looked like he had possibility running Shurmer's 1 read offense and looked Ok running Dabolls two headed running attack with Barkley.  In 6 years that is it.

1-Jones should be assessed based on what he has control over(and the film isn't good)
2-It is not safe to assume Jones would be any different with a solid Oline.
3- If Jones had two high quality receivers he has not proven he could read a full field if they lined up on opposite sides of it
4- People should stop blaming what is not present (Oline, Wr and/or defense) and making the false assumption Jones development will only improve if these pieces did exist.  Development is not always additive, Jones's mental limitations are not just speed bumps they are developmental road blocks. 


At the end of the day, even with another high quality receiver and a functional line Jones lacks in game instinct, grit and ability to overcome his competitive sports anxiety that shows itself too consistently in big moments.   

Mel Kiper thinks they should ban 2 deep safeties?  Is this a joke?  Its the dumbest commentary I have ever read from a supposedly informed person.

Competent offenses run all over 2 deep safeties and force a safety into the box.  The idea that the rules should change because teams are stopping the deep passing is ridiculous at best. 

The Giants are not dead last in scoring offense because Mel Kiper's right about 2 deep safeties. 

No one is saying it all on Daniel Jones but he is definitely a large contributor and has shown this year he is very challenged to throw an accurate deep ball.

Last night I watched Burrow (won't mention how much pressure he is under regularly) drop a pass into Ja'Marr Chase's hands while he was running full speed and didn't have to turn or slow down.  He easily ran for a TD.  Now go look what happened when Jones threw a similar pass to that afforementioned WR "Slayton. He is a bottom tier #2 receiver".  It was basically the same throw on the same route and Slayton had to slow down and turn to catch it.  So even though it was a 25+ yard completion and a big play, it wasn't a good throw.  A good throw would have resulted in a TD.  Its not going to show in too many stats, but that is one way Jones is limiting this offense.  I don't know how many safeties were deep on that play but the TD was there for the having if the QB would have thrown an accurate pass. 

I heard Bill Polian talking about Jones the other day.  I have a ton of respect for Polian and his opinion was that Jones gets too much blame for the Giants offensive woes, although he deserves some. I felt he was being hyperbolic about fans and media laying all of the blame on Jones which maybe I am wrong about.  But he ended his comments with this:  "Daniel Jones is a competent NFL QB.  He can play the position in the NFL.  Will he take you to the promise land?  I doubt that."

And that last part pretty much sums it up. If you put the best talent in the league around Jones you would probably get a competitive team that could not get over the hump and win a championship.