Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:27:36 AMIt seems to me that what Daboll is or isn't is more relevant than Jones.  The reality is that the Giants broke Jones, and he doesn't seem fixable, at least by the Giants.  At this point, if Jones ever becomes a starter (a long shot at this point), it will be with another team.

On the other hand, what Daboll is as a head coach is perhaps the most relevant topic left for the season

So Rich, just to be clear, you're saying that Daniel Jones could have been at least a good Franchise QB if the Giants didn't break him and or if Daboll had since properly developed him, and Schoen had given him a proper supporting cast? 

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:33:52 AMI am not buying the Giants broke Jones, the film shows the same traits over and over. I will say they didn't do him many favors in his development.  But Jones inability to continue to develop is on him and his mental limitations and the signs have been there since the first and second seasons.

Presnap and post snap, all the same traits that existed in past in the face of pressure or in the absence of it still exist today.

Playing QB off the 2 headed running attack with Barkley was the only real success he showed and that was a double edge sword as it was limited and halting his development.



I completely agree, what role if any Daboll has with the Giants is the number 1 question, then try to assess offensive personnel

Regardless if you believe the Giants did or didn't contribute to DJ's failure to develop into a franchise quarterback, it is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  DJ is broken and he isn't going to be fixed by the Giants.

One thing that I will say baffles me about Jones is his clear decline from 2022 until now.  I would say the pass protection is roughly on par with 2022 with a better WR corps with Nabers.  So why is Jones playing markedly worse this season than 2022? 

2022 QB rating 95.2/QBR 62.9

2024 QB rating 79.4/QBR 46.4

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:19:28 AM@T200

I have a hard time understanding how you could claim this wasn't a drop

Is it a drop?...yes it's a drop...hopefully that makes the Jones is a franchise QB crew happy that I admit it...the issue (to me however) is it is one in a plethora of instances where a nice easy completion is made to be MUCH harder than it needs to be because the throw was just not a good one. If u see the video, Tracy is all twisted and contortioned up...should he catch it?...absolutely!!!....but we have seen this too much where the easy catches are made to be much harder and acrobatic than they need to be. Rarely if ever do we see Jones leading a receiver in stride and to that point a case can be made he is actually late with his delivery on most cases.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2024, 10:38:04 AMSo Rich, just to be clear, you're saying that Daniel Jones could have been at least a good Franchise QB if the Giants didn't break him and or if Daboll had since properly developed him, and Schoen had given him a proper supporting cast? 

I think that Jones has/had the potential to be a franchise QB (how good is hard to say).  Between years of bad protection and the beating and injuries (2 serious neck and an ACL), along with weak receivers who frequently drop passes or fail to get open, heavy scrutiny by press/pundits/fans, and a merry-go-round of mediocre offensive coaching, DJ never stood a chance at reaching his full potential  What his full potential was will always be subject to debate, but I think/hope most would agree that after being drafted by the Giants that full potential was never realized. 

Quote from: Trench on November 11, 2024, 10:40:29 AMIs it a drop?...yes it's a drop...hopefully that makes the Jones is a franchise QB crew happy that I admit it...

I would think the truth had more fans than that

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 10:19:59 AMYou can see the play around the 6 minute mark here. Nabers looks like he's wide open but Jones just immediately goes to Tracy:

https://x.com/nickfalato/status/1855935503704773113

Daniel Jones Giants career in a nutshell.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:38:51 AMRegardless if you believe the Giants did or didn't contribute to DJ's failure to develop into a franchise quarterback, it is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  DJ is broken and he isn't going to be fixed by the Giants.

One thing that I will say baffles me about Jones is his clear decline from 2022 until now.  I would say the pass protection is roughly on par with 2022 with a better WR corps with Nabers.  So why is Jones playing markedly worse this season than 2022? 

2022 QB rating 95.2/QBR 62.9

2024 QB rating 79.4/QBR 46.4

O line is much better than in 2022 and Barkley was the offense and the dual running threat allowed Jones and Barkley both to run despite the porous Oline, as well as, allowing jones to pass even if at a low functioning level. 

Regardless it was an offense with training wheels, designed to limit the impact of the horrible line and Jones limitations.
simple, simple a simple....

It is disingenuous to imply that 2022 was the level Jones was consistently at when it was anomaly engineered and executed by Daboll so well it got the team into the playoffs. 

and to give credit were credit is due Jones had a career game

Jones yesterday is not much different that the QB the Giants drafted; extremely hardworking class act that has the best intentions.  Just not a leader and not a but who elevates the offense and makes others better.  In fact he has consistently made his line look worse than they are. 

Non of this is new, he is the same guy he always was

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:53:20 AMO line is much better than in 2022 and Barkley was the offense and the dual running threat allowed Jones and Barkley both to run despite the porous Oline, as well as, allowing jones to pass even if at a low functioning level. 

Regardless it was an offense with training wheels, designed to limit the impact of the horrible line and Jones limitations.
simple, simple a simple....

It is disingenuous to imply that 2022 was the level Jones was consistently at when it was anomaly engineered and executed by Daboll so well it got the team into the playoffs. 

and to give credit were credit is due Jones had a career game

Jones yesterday is not much different that the QB the Giants drafted; extremely hardworking class act that has the best intentions.  Just not a leader and not a but who elevates the offense and makes others better.  In fact he has consistently made his line look worse than they are. 

Non of this is new, he is the same guy he always was

Tracy seems to negate much of the Barkley factor.   As for the 2022 offense being better for Daniel Jones, what does that say about Daboll if he put his starting QB in a system where he will perform much worse than his potential?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:57:35 AMTracy seems to negate much of the Barkley factor.  As for the 2022 offense being better for Daniel Jones, what does that say about Daboll if he put his starting QB in a system where he will perform much worse than his potential?

It says he put him in a system where he actually had to function like an NFL QB and stop relying on Barkley as a crutch and a check  down.   Maybe that is exactly way Schoen let Barkley leave....

Side note - They couldn't run DJ like that they did in 2022 as he is not physically capable of sustaining it. 

Knowing at the end of this season there is an out clause Jones needed to hit developmental benchmarks for the in-game mental processing so they could decided to keep him next year. He simply has not.

Jones should thank Daboll for the 2022 season being the highlight of his career and the monster guaranteed payday it lead to. Daboll did that and it's a positive, to spin it as a negative presents as a misguided smear effort

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:12:43 AMIt says he put him in a system where he actually had to function like an NFL QB and stop relying on Barkley as a crutch and a check  down.   Maybe that is exactly way Schoen let Barkley leave....

Side note - They couldn't run DJ like that they did in 2022 as he is not physically capable of sustaining it. 

Knowing at the end of this season there is an out clause Jones needed to hit developmental benchmarks for the in-game mental processing so they could decided to keep him next year. He simply has not.

Jones should thank Daboll for the 2022 season being the highlight of his career and the monster guaranteed payday it lead to. Daboll did that and it's a positive, to spin it as a negative presents as a spin move

If DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:14:29 AMIf DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

those are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same. 

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it.  

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him 

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

Exactly.  Daball didn't break DJ; he's is who he's proven to be for 8 years now.  The narrative is pressed by a few fans who simply don't want to admit they were been wrong about Jones for 3+ years. 

Jones never won at any level, he never had it.  I couldn't care less about QBR, PFF or whatever.  Those things have their place, but they don't replace what we all see.  He was never a great passer, not even sure he was good and I am going back to his first couple seasons.  I wanted him to do it, but he showed me he wasn't able to be in that echelon of quarterbacks who can scare defenses with passing or make big throws at key times.  I'm looking at the pattern not the exception - I know he has had some good games.

Unfortunately there is almost a religious belief in this guy and I think if Devito came in and started winnning those people would believe the coaches learned to coach and WR or OL learned to play.  They just can't accept Jones is not and was not good.  I will agree the NYG did him no favors - the line was a mess for a long time and that hurt him, but it didn't break a franchise talent.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:42:12 AMI think that Jones has/had the potential to be a franchise QB (how good is hard to say).  Between years of bad protection and the beating and injuries (2 serious neck and an ACL), along with weak receivers who frequently drop passes or fail to get open, heavy scrutiny by press/pundits/fans, and a merry-go-round of mediocre offensive coaching, DJ never stood a chance at reaching his full potential  What his full potential was will always be subject to debate, but I think/hope most would agree that after being drafted by the Giants that full potential was never realized. 

Or, he was never really that good to begin with. His Duke career was also filled with excuses.

59% Comp %, 52 YTDs and 29 INTs 6.4 Y/A

In 2022 Saquon averaged 5.3 YPC in the games they won, and 3.7 YPC in the games they lost. There was an opposing player who even said that to beat the Giants, they know they have to stop Saquon Barkley.

In the last two games, that the Giants should have won, Daboll saw the potential in the Run Game with Tracy and he balanced the play calling Run to Pass, 31/26 and 24/37.

Rich, you're not wrong that Jones got a raw deal here and had some bad luck. Three Head Coaches, 5 Play callers, Two GM's and several Injuries. You have to admit however that there's more to it than that. He's playing scared to make a mistake and he doesn't trust himself, which throws off the timing on his passes. But it's not just causation. It's correlation too. It's in his makeup to get rattled, and he lacks quick recognition skills.   

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

Below average, by definition,is not the "norm"