Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 11:24:50 AMExactly.  Daball didn't break DJ; he's is who he's proven to be for 8 years now.  The narrative is pressed by a few fans who simply don't want to admit they were been wrong about Jones for 3+ years. 

If you go by stats, this claim is incorrect

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

I  assume you are you are referring to your bias and are not engaging in a dishonest personal attack because the facts are against you.


I don't accuse you of being an irrational Jones hater, I expect equal respect

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:14:29 AMIf DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

The issue being that his career best was still a mediocre season. It was an incredibly low risk / low reward offense that was designed to not lose games for you in the hopes that the defense can do just enough to get you across the finish line. You can only run that type of offense for so long before the league catches up to you and, when they do, you have to be able to adjust and do more but Jones just isn't capable.

Football is fun and an amazing game to watch, but for the players it's a job, much more than fun; a very difficult job; an impossible one to be constantly good, if you have any weakness.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 11:31:56 AMThe issue being that his career best was still a mediocre season. It was an incredibly low risk / low reward offense that was designed to not lose games for you in the hopes that the defense can do just enough to get you across the finish line. You can only run that type of offense for so long before the league catches up to you and, when they do, you have to be able to adjust and do more but Jones just isn't capable.

Mediocre with no help from the line or receivers isn't half bad

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:41:19 AMMediocre with no help from the line or receivers isn't half bad

You've often cited the three support pillars a QB needs.

What about the support pillars a coach needs, specifically speaking of talent on the roster and at the key positions?

If the QB needs a good coach, isn't it reciprocal that a coach needs support from his QB? If the coach wants to implement a high-powered passing attack but can't because of the limitations of his QB, is that a knock on the coach? Of course, the response is that the coach is supposed to tailor his offense around the talent of his players.

And that's exactly what he did in 2022. He had to dumb down his high-powered offense to something more basic and rudimentary that his QB could handle. As @babywhales said, a training wheels offense.

The offense was limited due to DJ's deficiencies and inability to operate a potent offense.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 11:53:16 AMYou've often cited the three support pillars a QB needs.

What about the support pillars a coaching needs, specifically speaking of talent on the roster and at the key positions?

If the QB needs a good coach, isn't it reciprocal that a coach needs support from his QB? If the coach wants to implement a high-powered passing attack but can't because of the limitations of his QB, is that a knock on the coach? Of course, the response is that the coach is supposed to tailor his offense around the talent of his players.

And that's exactly what he did in 2022. He had to dumb down his high-powered offense to something more basic and rudimentary that his QB could handle. As @babywhales said, a training wheels offense.

The offense was limited due to DJ's deficiencies and inability to operate a potent offense.

A coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.   His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players   Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:58:08 AMA coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.   His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players   Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

Of course he did.

Do you think Daboll created a system built around DJ's limited skillset?

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 11:59:45 AMOf course he did.

Do you think Daboll created a system built around DJ's limited skillset?

In 2022, yes.   Since then, the results suggest no.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:58:08 AMA coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.  His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players  Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

But the offense he had to implement based on Jones' skillset has a very limited ceiling, which is the inherent problem. Maintaining that offense would have gotten us nowhere and the whole point of bringing Jones back was to see if he could enhance his skillset to fit what Daboll wants to do. It's fairly obvious that he can't. If the underlying question here is whether Daboll or Jones is the bigger problem, the answer is emphatically Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:01:03 PMIn 2022, yes.   Since then, the results suggest no.

What, in your view, are the differences in his 2022 system and this year's?

For the record, I don't hold 2023 against either of them because of DJ's early injury.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:06:33 PMWhat, in your view, are the differences in his 2022 system and this year's?

For the record, I don't hold 2023 against either of them because of DJ's early injury.

Tim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.   While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 12:06:27 PMBut the offense he had to implement based on Jones' skillset has a very limited ceiling, which is the inherent problem. Maintaining that offense would have gotten us nowhere and the whole point of bringing Jones back was to see if he could enhance his skillset to fit what Daboll wants to do. It's fairly obvious that he can't. If the underlying question here is whether Daboll or Jones is the bigger problem, the answer is emphatically Jones.

2022 was Daboll's third best offense in his career

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:27:27 AMIf you go by stats, this claim is incorrect

I'm not sure what stats you're using, but I assure you I'm correct. Let's analyze the data for consistency in terms of both averages and variance across all seasons.

Passing Analysis:

Jones' passing yards range from a low of 2,506 in 2023 (an injury-affected season) to a high of 3,958 in 2019. Ignoring 2023 as an outlier, the other years have passing yards in the 3,400-3,900 range, showing relatively stable output.

1. Average Passing Yards (excluding 2023):
(3,958 + 3,576 + 3,749 + 3,405 + 3,519) / 5 = 3,641.4
Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 242 yards
With a small standard deviation (242 yards), his passing yards remain within a consistent range over most seasons, indicating no major year-to-year fluctuations.

2. Passing Touchdowns:
Jones' passing touchdowns vary from 6 (2023) to 32 (2019). However, excluding the two outliers (2019 and 2023), his TDs range between 13 and 16 over other seasons.
Average Passing TDs (excluding 2019 and 2023):
(13 + 15 + 16 + 14) / 4=14.5
Standard Deviation (excluding 2019 and 2023): Approx. 1.3 TDs
The low variability here suggests that, aside from his rookie year, Jones' passing touchdown output is steady around 14-15 per season.

3. Interceptions:
Jones' interceptions range from a low of 5 in 2022 to a high of 17 in 2023, though most years fall between 11 and 16.
Average INTs (excluding 2023):
(16 + 12 + 11 + 5 + 12) / 5=11.2
Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 4.1 INTs
With a moderate standard deviation, his interceptions have some fluctuation but mostly stay around the 11-12 mark, reflecting stability in limiting turnovers.

Rushing Analysis:

1. Rushing Yards:
Jones' rushing yards show an increase in 2022 (752), but his other seasons range from 365 to 558.
Average Rushing Yards (excluding 2022):
(365 + 514 + 460 + 558 + 450) / 5= 469.4
Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 73 yards
This low variability (excluding 2022) indicates that Jones consistently contributes around 470 rushing yards per season, making 2022 an exceptional, rather than typical, year.

2. Rushing Touchdowns:
Jones' rushing touchdowns range from a low of 1 in 2020 to a high of 7 in 2022, with most seasons at 3.
Average Rushing TDs (excluding 2022):
(3 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 3) / 5=2.6
Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 0.9 TDs
With a standard deviation under 1, his rushing TDs also show consistency, typically in the range of 2-3 per season, aside from the standout 2022 year.


Conclusion
Excluding outliers like 2022 (a peak rushing year) and 2023 (a low passing year), Jones' passing and rushing stats fall within a narrow range year to year. The low variability in passing yards, touchdowns, and interceptions (barring certain outlier seasons) clearly indicated that he has maintained a consistent level of performance.

Typical of most starting QBs with 5+ seasons, there have been isolated high and low years, Daniel Jones' typical output has shown little change, as reflected in averages and standard deviations that indicate steadiness rather than significant year-to-year improvement or decline.  DJ is who he has always been. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:10:40 PMTim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.   While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

I think all of us here have expressed frustration with some of Daboll's decisions.

But my question to you is what do you see are the differences between the offense from 2022 and this year?