Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:42:36 PMDaboll isn't doing a very good job calling plays, nor is his scheme a good fit for his QB.


As for number 2 a couple of thoughts.  First, Jones is near the top in terms of sacks and hits endured compared to other QBs over the same time frame, which isn't good for any QB (Derek Carr is the poster boy for that issue).  In 2023 he got the crap kicked out of him in some of those games, especially the Dallas game.  Worse, he suffered a 2nd major neck injury and then an ACL injury.

As for your comments about better protection this year, that's true. However, the damage is done in terms of his confidence, and better safety now doesn't fix that problem. Frankly, I was impressed that DJ was able to regain his confidence by the end of the 2022 season. I am not optimistic that he can regain it again after losing it in 2023.

I appreciate your response.

Do you feel this season was doomed from the start since you feel he lost it last season?

Regarding Daboll and his scheme, what do you see as being different from '22?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 03:26:19 PMFirst, my math skills were good enough to be tapped for the math team in high school.  I have a degree in engineering from an elite college and engineering is the art of converting the real world into numbers.

Second my football knowledge

Years ago, I made sure I wasn't missing any information by starting with Football for Dummies by Howie Long and Football Guide for Idiots by Joe Theismann

Having ensured, I had the vocabulary and the all the basics covered, I dived into many books over the years

I have read all three books by Tom Coughlin

I have read the book written by Ernie Accorsi

I have read the two books written by Bill Polian

I have read the book written by Phil Simms about football

I have read the advanced book by Pat Kirwan about football

Football is a numbers game by Matt Coller

I have read the two books written by Mike Lombardi on football

I read the book written about scouting by former Giants Scout Steve Verdosa

I read The Art of Smart Football by Chris Bown

The book written by Bruce Arians

The Draft a year inside the NFL draft by Pete Williams

Ron Jaworski-  Games That Have Changed the Game

Bill Parcells-  A Football Life

A book about PFF

The physics of football by Timmothy Gay PHD

Scout Speak: thinking and talking about being an NFL evaluator by Neil Stratton

The Big Book of Bill Belichick by Alex Kirby

I am sure I have forgotten to list a few others


I also purchased a dozen coaching DVDs to learn more about the game

I have listened to countless hours of Podcasts from former NFL People like

Bill Polian
Mike Lombardi
Randy Mueller
Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah
Ross Tucker
Pat Kirwan (via NFL radio)
Phil Simms (and his sons)
Carl Banks
Howard Cross
Johnathon Cassius
Mike Tanebuem
Greg Gabriel
Greg Cossell (technically not NFL, but NFL adjacent)
again, I am sure I am missing a few other NFL people I have listened to and learned from

I also took an online scouting class given by Greg Gabriel.


As for occasionally being wrong, I am not like you; I don't mock people who are wrong. I am not so conceited as to believe I am not like the rest of mankind, that I am perfect, and that I never make a mistake.


So I am more than comfortable with my credentials, and I don't pretend to be perfect nor do I think the occasional mistake is worthy of mocking or belittling people (and you clearly believe) nor do I think mistakes negate the credentials or the hard work and time (and money) it took to earn that knowledge.

Your academic credentials, including your engineering degree, are well recognized. However, have you considered my credential may equal or exceed your own? Moreover, having credentials does not automatically make every analysis or conclusion we draw infallible. Acknowledging when our arguments are wrong is fundamental to intellectual growth, yet it seems you are more focused on defending a position than reassessing it when evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

It's fine to admit that no one is perfect, but when one's methodology repeatedly produces inaccurate results, continuing to defend it without reconsideration reflects a lack of intellectual honesty. Rather than admitting errors, you seem more committed to preserving your earlier positions, which diminishes the value of true intellectual curiosity.  At a minimum, I would recommend avoiding critizing others until your track record improves.

Furthermore, your suggestion that you don't mock people who are wrong is undermined when your responses seem designed to dismiss others rather than engage constructively. There's a difference between acknowledging a mistake and doubling down on flawed conclusions just to avoid the discomfort of revision. At this point, your defense is no longer about accuracy but about saving face. Mistakes should lead to better understanding, not to entrenched positions.

Also, I completely reject the notion I mocked you!
Mocking: "making fun of someone or something in a cruel way."
It's football!! How could criticizing your football acumen be perceived as cruel!?

You've made a number of claims over the past four years regarding Daniel Jones, Brian Daboll, and other football-related assessments. Your track record has not been strong, and that, in my view, is a key reason to encourage you to consider alternative methods of analysis. Data and results matter. When your predictions consistently miss the mark, it's reasonable to question whether the underlying assumptions and methodologies need to be revisited. To persist in defending them without reconsideration can undermine the intellectual process.

Considering your track record is not an attack on your character or credentials; it's a call for a shift to your analytical approach.  Perhaps the pundits you listen to, which are finically and personally motivated to promote thier importance have led you astray?  BL, If your past results have been inaccurate, it's not only reasonable to highlight them but also essential to recognize that change could improve future analyses.

I will concede the last word to you, as future discussion will be fruitless.  I would request you decouple disagreeing with you on football matters/acumen from an "attack."  I have not attacked you....

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 03:57:45 PMI appreciate your response.

Do you feel this season was doomed from the start since you feel he lost it last season?

Regarding Daboll and his scheme, what do you see as being different from '22?

Tim,

I am not sure I can directly answer question one.   I can say I saw a confident and effective QB in Jones at the end of 2022 and in the 2023 training camp and PS.   After the Dallas beating, he didn't look the same.  He appeared skittish and lacking in the confidence he had gained.   I don't know if the team was doomed in 2024, but I can say that the Jones I saw in training camp and the PS didn't appear to be all that confident or comfortable.  I hoped his confidence and effectiveness would come around, but I wasn't overly optimistic.

As for question two, I would have to do a lot of work and study to give a proper answer.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 04:21:17 PMYour academic credentials, including your engineering degree, are well recognized. However, have you considered my credential may equal or exceed your own? Moreover, having credentials does not automatically make every analysis or conclusion you draw infallible. Acknowledging when an argument is wrong is fundamental to intellectual growth, yet it seems you are more focused on defending a position than reassessing it when evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

It's fine to admit that no one is perfect, but when one's methodology repeatedly produces inaccurate results, continuing to defend it without reconsideration reflects a lack of intellectual honesty. Rather than admitting errors, you seem more committed to preserving your earlier positions, which diminishes the value of true intellectual curiosity.  At a minimum, I would recommend avoiding critizing others until your track record improves.

Furthermore, your suggestion that you don't mock people who are wrong is undermined when your responses seem designed to dismiss others rather than engage constructively. There's a difference between acknowledging a mistake and doubling down on flawed conclusions just to avoid the discomfort of revision. At this point, your defense is no longer about accuracy but about saving face. Mistakes should lead to better understanding, not to entrenched positions.

Also, I completely reject the notion I mocked you!
Mocking: "making fun of someone or something in a cruel way."
It's football!! How could criticizing your football acumen be perceived as cruel!?

You've made a number of claims over the past four years regarding Daniel Jones, Brian Daboll, and other football-related assessments. Your track record has not been strong, and that, in my view, is a key reason to encourage you to consider alternative methods of analysis. Data and results matter. When your predictions consistently miss the mark, it's reasonable to question whether the underlying assumptions and methodologies need to be revisited. To persist in defending them without reconsideration can undermine the intellectual process.

Considering your track record is not an attack on your character or credentials; it's a call for a shift to your analytical approach.  Perhaps the pundits you listen to, which are finically and personally motivated to promote thier importance have led you astray?  BL, If your past results have been inaccurate, it's not only reasonable to highlight them but also essential to recognize that change could improve future analyses.

I will concede the last word to you, as future discussion will be fruitless.  I would request you decouple disagreeing with you on football matters/acumen from an "attack."  I have not attacked you....

You challenged my credentials; I didn't challenge yours.  Nor did I provide an inaccurate assessment of your track record as you have done to me (it goes to your need to believe you are right instead of getting it right).   I know you take great offense when I point out flaws in the methodology of your "studies", but I also feel that letting bad information go uncorrected is not ideal.

The idea that I am ignorant about football and I need your guidance is frankly laughable as your efforts to insult my track record and football knowledge.

I think the primary difference between us is you pretend to be perfect, while I don't believe that is even possible.   Then again, you prop up your flawed arguments, assertions, and studies by falsely claiming superiority by pretending you are always right.  I am more than comfortable in my own skin and with my credentials so I don't have to pretend to be perfect nor do I have to mischaracterize other people's track records in an effort to belittle them.

As Greg Gabriel likes to say "it's more important to get it right, then being right"

Frankly it be a lot more peaceful if people, such as yourself, weren't hung up on the whole you were wrong and I was right thing

Rich

Jones is the same QB as he was at end of 2022

If you watch the film the same mistakes are being made , due to the same reasons.

Your entitled to your opinion but no matter how many times you repeat doesn't make it correct


Btw - I never wanted more for DJ to rise up , I wish more than ever the QB1 job could be solidified
I was rooting more than ever in 2022 and in 2023 and didn't give up in 2024

Call me a DJ hater all you want but it really says more about your stance than mind

But I'm sorry his film shows the same mistakes as 19,20 and 2021.

He didn't change and that's the problem, he failed to develop

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 04:45:43 PMRich

Jones is the same QB as he was at end of 2022

If you watch the film the same mistakes are being made , due to the same reasons.

Your entitled to your opinion but no matter how many times you repeat doesn't make it correct


Btw - I never wanted more for DJ to rise up , I wish more than ever the QB1 job could be solidified
I was rooting more than ever in 2022 and in 2023 and didn't give up in 2024

Call me a DJ hater all you want but it really says more about your stance than mind

But I'm sorry his film shows the same mistakes as 19,20 and 2021.

He didn't change and that's the problem, he failed to develop

Chris,

I haven't seen what you have seen, so I don't agree.  Almost all the issues I have seen with Jones recently can be contributed to a lack of coolness under pressure.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 04:38:03 PMYou challenged my credentials; I didn't challenge yours.  Nor did I provide an inaccurate assessment of your track record as you have done to me (it goes to your need to believe you are right instead of getting it right).   I know you take great offense when I point out flaws in the methodology of your "studies", but I also feel that letting bad information go uncorrected is not ideal.

The idea that I am ignorant about football and I need your guidance is frankly laughable as your efforts to insult my track record and football knowledge.

I think the primary difference between us is you pretend to be perfect, while I don't believe that is even possible.   Then again, you prop up your flawed arguments, assertions, and studies by falsely claiming superiority by pretending you are always right.  I am more than comfortable in my own skin and with my credentials so I don't have to pretend to be perfect nor do I have to mischaracterize other people's track records in an effort to belittle them.

As Greg Gabriel likes to say "it's more important to get it right, then being right"

Frankly it be a lot more peaceful if people, such as yourself, weren't hung up on the whole you were wrong and I was right thing

I was prepared to concede, but your hypocritical comments need to be addressed.

In terms of the New York Giants, can you name a single instance where you admitted to being wrong? Do any long-time members recall Rich acknowledging he was wrong? You may have done so, but I can't recall any instance where you have, despite being given some high profile opportunities to do so (e.g. Davis Webb and DJ). I haven't misrepresented your track record and would be glad to iterate through it; however, I don't wish to be viewed as mocking you.  Perhaps sending you a DM, like you did when attempting to "mock" me regarding DJ is more appropriate?

Your recent comments suggest you might be guilty of the same actions you criticize me of, and forms the genesis of this response. Consider this thread:

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

Not a single poster supports your methodology; yet, instead of genuinely considering their points, you dismiss them outright, which is symptomatic of an egocentric bias.  More to the point, you seem more "concerned with being right, than getting it right." It's also worth noting that only one other poster (@Sdx) has made the same accusations against me as you have. In contrast, I'd need more fingers and toes to count the number of posters who have pointed out your need to be right.   

As for me, I've never claimed to be infallible and have openly admitted my mistakes. Recently, I was against signing Okereke and overestimated Bellinger's potential as a pass-catcher. I also predicted only 6-7 wins in 2022 and did not foresee a playoff appearance. Outside of Giants predictions, I may have been wrong about Sam Darnold, though his last three games have been underwhelming.  There could be more, but those are areas that immediately come to mind; I invite others to chime in if I missed any.

Finally, I never claimed you were "ignorant about football." Your football knowledge is impressive and exceeds my own.  What I stated is your conclusions have been poor and/or have oscillated to support the narrative that DJs failures are a byproduct of his environment.

Add another to the growing list of excuses for Jones, now it's Daboll's fault. Now Daboll isn't as great as his press clippings and since Josh Allen didn't have MVP years his first couple of years, Daboll didn't do a great job over there.

Look, for sure, I am not a fan of Daboll, but he has tried everything possible to try and make Jones a quality starter in the NFL. You simply cannot spin gold out of straw. So Jones is now 'broken'. He was 'broken' way before this. Yes, he came onto the scene and gave us hope, but once the DCs got the book on him, his glory was deflated. Once again, Daboll designed something to try and fit what Jones does right and it worked until the DCs figured that out also. If Daboll wasn't our coach in 2022, Jones would have been hearing boos then also, but its now Dabolls fault.

Let's face facts, Jones is just a horrible QB, but those who think otherwise keep deflecting his faults onto others. As for all the supposed other teams that were lining up to draft Jones had not Gettleman scooped him up at #6, they are probably dancing in the street for the past 6 years.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 01:42:16 PMHi Tim,

Maybe you haven't seen any of my latest comments, especially yesterday, but after the game I've been saying that the Giants have the 2nd pick in the draft, and if there is a QB that they love, then I am on board with taking him and moving on from DJ.

That's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 08:47:43 PMThat's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

Actually, yesterday I said that there were multiple throws that were behind receivers, some were actually thrown in the dirt a few feet in front them, and his first pass was actually air mailed way over Nabers head.

However, his last drive which set them up for a field goal drive was actually quite good.

So, as you can see, I've been reasonable and balanced here, as I see both sides.

In the end we need to remember that this was an evaluation year for Daniel Jones.

He was provided with a #1 receiver, and his offensive line has been better than in the past.

The question that needed to be answered was with these tools could he be the franchise QB for the next ten years? Or do we need to release him and look for someone else?

I believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 08:47:43 PMThat's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

To your point and I'm not sure it's been discussed or not (is it possible anything hasn't yet been discussed on Jones)?

Has anyone noticed there have been many many more passes this year which are literally thrown at players feet - even short passes. It's so bizarre to me because it is something "new" as far as I can remember

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 09:55:04 PMI believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

Daball and Schoen came to that conclusion years ago, which is why they chose not to pick up his 5th year option, signed him to a contract with a 2-year out, and attempted to trade with NE to acquire his replacement.  The only reason DJ is still on the team is because in 2 of 3 draft, there wasn't a QB they liked at the position they drafted.  That's why I'm willing to give Schoen another season; he was correct about DJ.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 09:55:04 PMActually, yesterday I said that there were multiple throws that were behind receivers, some were actually thrown in the dirt a few feet in front them, and his first pass was actually air mailed way over Nabers head.

However, his last drive which set them up for a field goal drive was actually quite good.

So, as you can see, I've been reasonable and balanced here, as I see both sides.

In the end we need to remember that this was an evaluation year for Daniel Jones.

He was provided with a #1 receiver, and his offensive line has been better than in the past.

The question that needed to be answered was with these tools could he be the franchise QB for the next ten years? Or do we need to release him and look for someone else?

I believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

That's good to see that you've come around. I do recall that you also cautioned us to not be rash and let the season play out as that is what you were going to do before making up your mind.

So, I'm curious... what changed for you?

J.T. O'Sullivan did his live Q&A today. One of the questions was "Is Daniel Jones finished!" His response was that he's been finished. He has no desire to review or even watch a game. Quite frankly or to be brutally frank, I don't recall him doing a breakdown of Jones in at least a year.

My assessment of Daboll's play calling is that he runs what he needs to for Jones. He's been inserting more Runs and he's been trying to come up with plays for YAC, but there is a lack of execution. I suspect there is a lot more he would do if he had a QB who could throw with anticipation. It's at the point where it's almost Dave Brown like. When Kerry Collins came on the scene it seemed almost electrifying in how he was hitting Receivers in stride. Jones attempts at doing this have resulted in these off target passes. So he hits checkdowns, comebacks and soft spot sits in Zone. Even the deep throws are usually off target. On the Penalty where Jalin got mugged, he had his man beat but if it was clean, he still would have had to make a diving catch.

I don't know if Daboll is creative and innovative as a play caller because he and Kafka haven't had the opportunity to show it. Most of you here slammed Garrett's calls as vanilla and Shurmur did a lot of one or two read plays. Someone mentioned Daboll as the common denominator but with all due respect, the target was way off as Jones' passes have been.

I'm not sure if it was Mitch or Joseph who said that when a team drafts a QB, they usually will make a change that year in the HC. That's a real possibility. Perhaps Brian's song is he Petered (PP) out as an OC. His next gig will likely be that. It's going to get very ugly for the rest of this season and I don't think John Mara has the stomach for it, as Messiah said.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2024, 10:27:01 PMJ.T. Sullivan did his live Q&A today. One of the questions was "Is Daniel Jones finished!" His response was that he's been finished. He has no desire to review or even watch a game. Quite frankly or to be brutally frank, I don't recall him doing a breakdown of Jones in at least a year.

My assessment of Daboll's play calling is that he runs what he needs to for Jones. He's been inserting more Runs and he's been trying to come up with plays for YAC, but there is a lack of execution. I suspect there is a lot more he would do if he had a QB who could throw with anticipation. It's at the point where it's almost Dave Brown like. When Kerry Collins came on the scene it seemed almost electrifying in how he was hitting Receivers in stride. Jones attempts at doing this have resulted in these off target passes. So he hits checkdowns, comebacks and soft spot sits in Zone. Even the deep throws are usually off target. On the Penalty where Jalin got mugged, he had his man beat but if it was clean, he still would have had to make a diving catch.

I don't know if Daboll is creative and innovative as a play caller because he and Kafka haven't had the opportunity to show it. Most of you here slammed Garrett's calls as vanilla and Shurmur did a lot of one or two read plays. Someone mentioned Daboll as the common denominator but with all due respect, the target was way off as Jones' passes have been.

I'm not sure if it was Mitch or Joseph who said that when a team drafts a QB, they usually will make a change that year in the HC. That's a real possibility. Perhaps Brian's song is he Petered (PP) out as an OC. His next gig will likely be that. It's going to get very ugly for the rest of this season and I don't think John Mara has the stomach for it, as Messiah said.

Great post, Ed.

My hope is that Daboll doesn't lose the team and gets his shot with his own QB.

As to Mara, someone needs to tell him in no uncertain terms that this is the mess that he himself created and he needs to let Schoen and Daboll fix it.