Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: LennG on November 11, 2024, 10:55:54 AMPhil

what you say is true, but if truly has been saddled with a QB who simply cannot operate his system, what is he to do? He was COTY and he got Jones to, at least, resemble what an NFL QB should be like, but then teams saw this and closed that down and since then, what can he do to help make Jones something he is not?
Look, I am far from a Daboll supporter. I wasn't thrilled when they signed a guy who has absolutely no HC experience. My one concern is if we draft a new QB, and we leave Daboll to coach him and we still have another horrible year, can e then dump Daboll and hire someone new, what effect will that have on the new QB?

3-14 would be the worst record of DJ's six seasons with the team.  What does that say about the coaches and GM?

Quote from: Philosophers on November 11, 2024, 10:40:23 AMIf Giants go 3-14 following last year, how do you keep Dabs?

Because he'll finally have a real QB. He's gotten a bit of a raw deal following his coach of the year season.  That was the fluke of all flukes that in a year they were effectively tanking to get out of salary cap hell they actually won a bunch of games they shouldn't have and Jones looked better than he has his entire career.  It screwed up everything.  I would like to see Daboll get to coach a real QB who can run an NFL offense because getting as much as he has out of Jones to this point is honestly pretty impressive.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:59:33 AM3-14 would be the worst record of DJ's six seasons with the team.  What does that say about the coaches and GM?

Depends on who you blame for keeping Jones for this long.  If you think it's Mara's fault primarily then they deserve a shot to do it without an anchor around their necks.  If you think Daboll/Schoen honestly believed after 2022 that Jones was so good they should abort their original plans to dispose of him right away and tie their futures to him...then yea they should probably be fired. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 11, 2024, 11:19:25 AMDepends on who you blame for keeping Jones for this long.  If you think it's Mara's fault primarily then they deserve a shot to do it without an anchor around their necks.  If you think Daboll/Schoen honestly believed after 2022 that Jones was so good they should abort their original plans to dispose of him right away and tie their futures to him...then yea they should probably be fired. 

Daboll's career history doesn't suggest a QB guru

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:20:30 AMDaboll's career history doesn't suggest a QB guru

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

I can't fathom a scenario where more is pulled from Daniel Jones than has been pulled from Daniel Jones.  He was not great in college, his entire career from that point was only projection not based on production, and Daboll somehow got him into the playoffs once.  He earned coach of the year that year for that accomplishment. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 11, 2024, 11:36:26 AMI can't fathom a scenario where more is pulled from Daniel Jones than has been pulled from Daniel Jones.  He was not great in college, his entire career from that point was only projection not based on production, and Daboll somehow got him into the playoffs once.  He earned coach of the year that year for that accomplishment. 

The study goes far beyond Daniel Jones.  As the great Bill Parcells likes to say, " you are what your record says you are "

daboll has shown nothing in terms of good coaching. i understand jones is a roadblock, but its not like the rest of the team is playing stellar. we suck in every single metric. every single one. we dont do anything well other than lose. if the rest of the team was playing lights out and jones was making horrible int's every other drive i get it. The first one yesterday was pretty bad...should have pump faked it with a guy in his face like that. just bad awareness there. The second one was a bad throw and a bad decision, but it was catchable, and it was just an amazing play by the defender. Bad qb play. But i digress, regardless of jones, the rest of the team is also playing like garbage. Our run D is atrocious. our special teams have been a nightmare all year. awful penalties. I'm sorry, but I'd rip the band aid off and start over. I know they hate doing it and its just been turnover after turnover...but this administration is trash and has done absolutely nothing to warrant any type of good faith. 

Here's what I would do.

Bench Jones, start Lock and keep Jones as the #2 QB. I know some of you would rather see Cutlets but Lock deserves a first shot at starting. With the bye he will plenty of time to prepare.

Give playcalling back to Kafka. Schoen needs to tell Dabs that what he is calling is not working.

Make Hyatt a starter even with Slayton returning. He showed yesterday that he can get open. The season is lost. He's a 2nd year receiver that we traded up for. Let him learn on the job.

Keep the new OL combo. Similar to Hyatt we need to see more of Evan Neal at RT. 

Quote from: TDToomer on November 11, 2024, 02:04:00 PMHere's what I would do.

Bench Jones, start Lock and keep Jones as the #2 QB. I know some of you would rather see Cutlets but Lock deserves a first shot at starting. With the bye he will plenty of time to prepare.

Give playcalling back to Kafka. Schoen needs to tell Dabs that what he is calling is not working.

Make Hyatt a starter even with Slayton returning. He showed yesterday that he can get open. The season is lost. He's a 2nd year receiver that we traded up for. Let him learn on the job.

Keep the new OL combo. Similar to Hyatt we need to see more of Evan Neal at RT. 

I don't want a head coach that needs the GM to tell him how to coach.

Quote from: TDToomer on November 11, 2024, 02:04:00 PMHere's what I would do.

Bench Jones, start Lock and keep Jones as the #2 QB. I know some of you would rather see Cutlets but Lock deserves a first shot at starting. With the bye he will plenty of time to prepare.

Give playcalling back to Kafka. Schoen needs to tell Dabs that what he is calling is not working.

Make Hyatt a starter even with Slayton returning. He showed yesterday that he can get open. The season is lost. He's a 2nd year receiver that we traded up for. Let him learn on the job.

Keep the new OL combo. Similar to Hyatt we need to see more of Evan Neal at RT. 

I like most of what you suggest but I take issue and disagree Lock deserves anything. Just because someone paid him in the off-season?...if anyone "deserves" anything it's the kid Cutlets who came out of nowhere to actually win 3 or 4 games last year. My opinion

Whether or not it's fair if Daboll is fired is irrelevant. 

What is relevant is how the team looks down the stretch of another lost season.  If guys are mailing it in after the bye or never really return from it, he will be gone. 

This team just lost to the consensus worst team in football and the team might be on its way to a 2nd consecutive drop in wins from the previous season.  HCs rarely have their job after a team gets worse two years in a row. 

If I were their boss I would think the team keeps getting worse because 1)we have been acquiring the wrong players or 2)we have the wrong coach.

 If you were Schoen which one would you tell Mara it is?

Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 11, 2024, 10:37:30 PMWhether or not it's fair if Daboll is fired is irrelevant. 

What is relevant is how the team looks down the stretch of another lost season.  If guys are mailing it in after the bye or never really return from it, he will be gone. 

This team just lost to the consensus worst team in football and the team might be on its way to a 2nd consecutive drop in wins from the previous season.  HCs rarely have their job after a team gets worse two years in a row. 

If I were their boss I would think the team keeps getting worse because 1)we have been acquiring the wrong players or 2)we have the wrong coach.

 If you were Schoen which one would you tell Mara it is?

None of the above.

Here's what I tell Mara:

"John, I told you Day 1 that we need to move on from Jones and start fresh with a QB that Brian can work with. You said that you and the previous management did everything you could to screw Jones up. You wanted to see if there was anything there that Brian could work with. Brian and I decided, against our better judgment, to roll with him for one year. Brian did an amazing job getting the team to the playoffs and a win. You pressed us to give him a deal that we were not OK with. You now see how things have gradually gotten worse and Daniel is not the answer. We've given him protection and weapons and it's still not enough. His time is up. Brian is going to play Lock for the remainder of the season so Jones doesn't get injured and we have to pay for it next year."

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 10:47:45 PMNone of the above.

Here's what I tell Mara:

"John, I told you Day 1 that we need to move on from Jones and start fresh with a QB that Brian can work with. You said that you and the previous management did everything you could to screw Jones up. You wanted to see if there was anything there that Brian could work with. Brian and I decided, against our better judgment, to roll with him for one year. Brian did an amazing job getting the team to the playoffs and a win. You pressed us to give him a deal that we were not OK with. You now see how things have gradually gotten worse and Daniel is not the answer. We've given him protection and weapons and it's still not enough. His time is up. Brian is going to play Lock for the remainder of the season so Jones doesn't get injured and we have to pay for it next year."

That's all dependent on the previous conversations going the way you believe they did. 

What if Schoen and Daboll both said Adamently that they could turn the team around with Jones at the helm?  That may have been a prerequisite to get their jobs. 

Did they emphatically endorse the Jones extension?  You are suggesting they were against it which I have a hard time believing.

If I'm Mara, I want to know why the team can go to the playoffs with Gettlemans players but a couple of drafts later and the team has a much worse record.  Schoen can try and blame Jones, but the team was better with Jones on it when they took over.  I get there is a lot that has happened but the record is hard to get around. 

3 drafts and 4 1st round picks and the best players on the team are from the previous regime (Nabers will probably change that) that is considered one of the worst in team history. 

It's hard for me to think that in a business as competitive and results driven as the NFL the Giants will stand pat with the current staff with this prgression:

2022: 9 wins
2023: 6 wins
2024: 4 wins maybe?

If this team comes out of the bye and plays hard and gets to 6 wins (4-3 down the stretch) they likely won't make any moves.  However, the effort I saw in Munich tells me 4 more wins is highly unlikely.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 11, 2024, 11:15:26 PMThat's all dependent on the previous conversations going the way you believe they did. 

What if Schoen and Daboll both said Adamently that they could turn the team around with Jones at the helm?  That may have been a prerequisite to get their jobs. 

Did they emphatically endorse the Jones extension?  You are suggesting they were against it which I have a hard time believing.

If I'm Mara, I want to know why the team can go to the playoffs with Gettlemans players but a couple of drafts later and the team has a much worse record.  Schoen can try and blame Jones, but the team was better with Jones on it when they took over.  I get there is a lot that has happened but the record is hard to get around. 

3 drafts and 4 1st round picks and the best players on the team are from the previous regime (Nabers will probably change that) that is considered one of the worst in team history. 

It's hard for me to think that in a business as competitive as the NFL the Giants will stand pat with the current staff with this profession:

2022: 9 wins
2023: 6 wins
2024: 4 wins maybe?

If this team comes out of the bye and plays hard and gets to 6 wins (4-3 down the stretch) they likely won't make any moves.  However, the effort I saw in Munich tells me 4 more wins is highly unlikely.

The fact that they declined Jones's 5th-year option leads me to strongly believe they didn't feel they could turn things around. I have a hard time believing that a new GM and HC would come in and be OK going forward with someone else's QB, unless it's an elite one. Mara's statement on ruining Jones also bolsters my stance that he's a meddler.

I don't believe Schoen and Daboll emphatically endorsed the contract. The 2-year out was a compromise.

QuoteIf I'm Mara, I want to know why the team can go to the playoffs with Gettlemans players but a couple of drafts later and the team has a much worse record.

"Brian had to tremendously pare down his offense to accommodate Jones's limited skillset. We can't keep running a basic vanilla offense because a HS coach can defend it. The more Brian adds to Daniel's plate, the more he and the offense suffers."

I have said, and stand by this: as long as Daboll doesn't lose the locker room, he will be back and they will draft their own QB.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 11:25:58 PMThe fact that they declined Jones's 5th-year option leads me to strongly believe they didn't feel they could turn things around. I have a hard time believing that a new GM and HC would come in and be OK going forward with someone else's QB, unless it's an elite one. Mara's statement on ruining Jones also bolsters my stance that he's a meddler.

I don't believe Schoen and Daboll emphatically endorsed the contract. The 2-year out was a compromise.

"Brian had to tremendously pare down his offense to accommodate Jones's limited skillset. We can't keep running a basic vanilla offense because a HS coach can defend it. The more Brian adds to Daniel's plate, the more he and the offense suffers."

I have said, and stand by this: as long as Daboll doesn't lose the locker room, he will be back and they will draft their own QB.

It's difficult to keep a locker room in year 3 when things have gotten worse each year.