Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 12, 2024, 11:26:26 PMI just finished watching Joe Schoen's presser.

He said they are 1-5 in one score games, so they have to play better, and that they are not that far off.

What scares me is he said they are going to figure out what they need to do to win these next seven games.

If by chance they do start to play better and win a few games, that is going to destroy their chances of getting the #1 pick in the draft.

I think realistically when your 2-8, at this point you're not making the playoffs, so just tank the season and please go and get the best player in the draft when you have the chance.

The last thing they need is to win some meaningless games and put them out of contention of securing the #1 pick, but that is my opinion.

While it would nice to snare the top draft pick , you do not tank. These are professional athletes whose jobs are on the line . You go out and play the best that you can and if you win somev games sobeit What is your solution , bring up the entire practice squad and play them ?

A big issue I have about the 1 score losses is what value do we place on a head coach being able to be good enough to at least win 1/3 to 1/2 of those one point losses?

What does it say about the coach if he can't "also" elevate a team with his own coaching ability?...before we answer I'd ask - does Shanahan or McVey or Campbell win any games due to their decision making or is it all the players?

Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on November 12, 2024, 11:34:57 PMWhile it would nice to snare the top draft pick , you do not tank. These are professional athletes whose jobs are on the line . You go out and play the best that you can and if you win somev games sobeit What is your solution , bring up the entire practice squad and play them ?

I understand where you are coming from, but not tanking is the very reason why the Giants were out of the running for Jayden Daniels last year.

They won some meaningless games that put them out of the ability to trade up and snag an elite QB prospect.

Washington on the other hand traded away two of their top defensive ends and tanked the entire season to put themselves in a position for the 2nd overall pick and look at them now.

You can still have the team play hard and also lose at the same time.

Quote from: Trench on November 13, 2024, 12:18:22 AMA big issue I have about the 1 score losses is what value do we place on a head coach being able to be good enough to at least win 1/3 to 1/2 of those one point losses?

What does it say about the coach if he can't "also" elevate a team with his own coaching ability?...before we answer I'd ask - does Shanahan or McVey or Campbell win any games due to their decision making or is it all the players?

One-score games often indicate teams that are roughly equal in terms of talent.  In those sorts of games, the better-coached players who are focused on the details tend to be victorious.   

I have thought about this press conference and about the state of the team three seasons into Schoen's regime.   Schoen liked to point to his successful 2024 draft and the Brian Burns trade (which I consider a wash at best since they gave up a high second pick and a big veteran contract).

I think the hidden problem is that most of the focus is on Schoen's acquisition of talent, with almost no focus on the talent he has allowed the team to bleed off. 

Consider the talent Schoen has allowed to leave or trade away.

Jack Rabbit year one allowed to walk and greatly helped the Eagles.

The Seahawks' two highest PFF-graded defenders are former Giants

Julian Love was allowed to walk for no return.
Leonard Williams  (traded away for a 2nd round pick with the Giants absorbing a cap hit)

Then the team allowed McKinney (the PFF elite graded player now with the Packers) for nothing.

He allowed Barkley to walk for nothing (who has an excellent PFF grade of 80.2)


That's part of what is killing this team: the failure to hang on to good players

Schoen loves to brag about Tracy and Nubin, but Tracy isn't quite playing as well as Barkley, and Nubin has a long way to go before playing as well as McKinney.

So, if you just talk draft picks, those two picks look excellent, but when you look big picture team building, the team isn't quite as good


I feel like Schoen's approach to team building can be summed up by the old saying-  1 step forward and two steps back

Justin Penik
@JustinPenik
·
6m
I have been thinking about the phrases "we're close" and "we're a QB away" all night and I just can't shake how much it bothers me. It's bringing me back to the times of 2018 (Dave Gettleman justified the Giants being close by saying they lead the NFC East in scoring)

Wanna know the difference between good teams and bad teams? Good teams have STARS. And they have multiple of them. The Giants have 2 stars, one of them who is injured often in AT. And if want to argue Nabers as the third, I need to see more consistency and effort out of Nabers on a down in down out basis.

So yea they can be a good QB away from taking them to great places and I'm hopeful about that. But there are no stars on this team. And certainly none of them drafted by Joe Schoen.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:31:27 AMI have thought about this press conference and about the state of the team three seasons into Schoen's regime.   Schoen liked to point to his successful 2024 draft and the Brian Burns trade (which I consider a wash at best since they gave up a high second pick and a big veteran contract).

I think the hidden problem is that most of the focus is on Schoen's acquisition of talent, with almost no focus on the talent he has allowed the team to bleed off. 

Consider the talent Schoen has allowed to leave or trade away.

Jack Rabbit year one allowed to walk and greatly helped the Eagles.

The Seahawks' two highest PFF-graded defenders are former Giants

Julian Love was allowed to walk for no return.
Leonard Williams  (traded away for a 2nd round pick with the Giants absorbing a cap hit)

Then the team allowed McKinney (the PFF elite graded player now with the Packers) for nothing.

He allowed Barkley to walk for nothing (who has an excellent PFF grade of 80.2)


That's part of what is killing this team: the failure to hang on to good players

Schoen loves to brag about Tracy and Nubin, but Tracy isn't quite playing as well as Barkley, and Nubin has a long way to go before playing as well as McKinney.

So, if you just talk draft picks, those two picks look excellent, but when you look big picture team building, the team isn't quite as good


I feel like Schoen's approach to team building can be summed up by the old saying-  1 step forward and two steps back

Can't keep everybody.  Letting Saquon go was and remains the right thing to do.  Tracy might not be Barkley but he's pretty damn good, for a lot less money.  Money that allowed them to go and get a couple new OL.  Same thing with McKinney/Nubin.  The Leonard Williams trade was amazing that he was able to get what he got for that guy and Burns has proven to be an excellent addition to an already stout DL.  You're not finding many guys in the 2nd round that can produce like that. 

Like it or not he's hit more than he's missed.  Though he does have some misses too, like re-signing Jones, which he all but admitted in the press conference.  No GM is going to be perfect but to me they absolutely ARE close.  I never felt this good about a roster when Gentleman was in charge.  Not a single day did I feel like they were just a piece or two away from actually competing with the big boys.  But I do now.  I think they are a QB away from being a very good team.  Now of course they have to find that QB which is a lot easier said than done but if they can this team will excel.  If they can't, like just about every other team that can't, they will fall flat and Schoen/Daboll will be fired.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:31:27 AMI have thought about this press conference and about the state of the team three seasons into Schoen's regime.  Schoen liked to point to his successful 2024 draft and the Brian Burns trade (which I consider a wash at best since they gave up a high second pick and a big veteran contract).

I think the hidden problem is that most of the focus is on Schoen's acquisition of talent, with almost no focus on the talent he has allowed the team to bleed off. 

Consider the talent Schoen has allowed to leave or trade away.

Jack Rabbit year one allowed to walk and greatly helped the Eagles.

The Seahawks' two highest PFF-graded defenders are former Giants

Julian Love was allowed to walk for no return.
Leonard Williams  (traded away for a 2nd round pick with the Giants absorbing a cap hit)

Then the team allowed McKinney (the PFF elite graded player now with the Packers) for nothing.

He allowed Barkley to walk for nothing (who has an excellent PFF grade of 80.2)


That's part of what is killing this team: the failure to hang on to good players

Schoen loves to brag about Tracy and Nubin, but Tracy isn't quite playing as well as Barkley, and Nubin has a long way to go before playing as well as McKinney.

So, if you just talk draft picks, those two picks look excellent, but when you look big picture team building, the team isn't quite as good


I feel like Schoen's approach to team building can be summed up by the old saying-  1 step forward and two steps back

Most of these I am fine with, but losing Love always bothered the hell out of me. He was excellent in his final year with Wink and was arguably glue that helped keep things together a bit on that side of the ball.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 13, 2024, 08:46:26 AMMost of these I am fine with, but losing Love always bothered the hell out of me. He was excellent in his final year with Wink and was arguably glue that helped keep things together a bit on that side of the ball.

On a case-by-case basis, I can see reason to let a player walk, but big picture letting talent go without compensation is a recipe for failure.   Had the team traded away Barkley and McKinney they would have at least had more draft capital to replace them.   I am always mindful that all 31 other teams have draft capital as well and are adding talent.  The secret to success is finding ways to add more talent than the competition, not just adding talent

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 08:45:37 AMCan't keep everybody.  Letting Saquon go was and remains the right thing to do.  Tracy might not be Barkley but he's pretty damn good, for a lot less money.  Money that allowed them to go and get a couple new OL.  Same thing with McKinney/Nubin.  The Leonard Williams trade was amazing that he was able to get what he got for that guy and Burns has proven to be an excellent addition to an already stout DL.  You're not finding many guys in the 2nd round that can produce like that. 

Like it or not he's hit more than he's missed.  Though he does have some misses too, like re-signing Jones, which he all but admitted in the press conference.  No GM is going to be perfect but to me they absolutely ARE close.  I never felt this good about a roster when Gentleman was in charge.  Not a single day did I feel like they were just a piece or two away from actually competing with the big boys.  But I do now.  I think they are a QB away from being a very good team.  Now of course they have to find that QB which is a lot easier said than done but if they can this team will excel.  If they can't, like just about every other team that can't, they will fall flat and Schoen/Daboll will be fired.

Schoen missed on 2 out of 3 drafts; that's not hitting on more than he missed in my book

Schoen allowed 5 high-quality starters to walk without any compensation and traded away another

Had Schoen "hit more than he missed" he could have kept either McKinney or Barkley, but since he missed on 3 O-linemen drafted he had to spend cap money on veteran O-linemen instead

Also, the Giants ate a lot of cap money in the Williams trade, which also made it difficult to retain those pro-bowl-caliber players.

As Justin Penik said, the Giants lack stars. Beyond that, Schoen hasn't drafted any stars (some have potential but haven't proven to be stars) and has let many stars walk off the team with nothing in return.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 13, 2024, 08:46:26 AMMost of these I am fine with, but losing Love always bothered the hell out of me. He was excellent in his final year with Wink and was arguably glue that helped keep things together a bit on that side of the ball.

Love was a weird situation because he brought the Giants a number, they balked at it and re-signed Slayton with the money, and then he signed for less than what he initially demanded with Seattle.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:54:55 AMSchoen missed on 2 out of 3 drafts; that's not hitting on more than he missed in my book

Schoen allowed 5 high-quality starters to walk without any compensation and traded away another

Had Schoen "hit more than he missed" he could have kept either McKinney or Barkley, but since he missed on 3 O-linemen drafted he had to spend cap money on veteran O-linemen instead

Also, the Giants ate a lot of cap money in the Williams trade, which also made it difficult to retain those pro-bowl-caliber players.

As Justin Penik said, the Giants lack stars. Beyond that, Schoen hasn't drafted any stars (some have potential but haven't proven to be stars) and has let many stars walk off the team with nothing in return.

I disagree on the drafts.  Unless you expect every draft to be as spectacular as the 2024 draft.  Which if they were then the 24 draft wouldn't be considered "spectacular" but rather "average". 

In my opinion in 2022 he hit on (hit to me meaning solid player or above):

Thibs
Wandale
Flott
McFadden

(and if Evan Neal turns into something that's a legitimately good draft regardless of criteria.  That's a bit more hopeful than anything else but we did just witness his first good game as a Giant so who knows)

In 2023 gets a bit more dicey.  This is a bad draft unless Banks decides to focus and try on every play.  So far he has not.  I like JMS but thought he'd be even better than he has been.  I love Hyatt, but Daboll hates him.  The rest is a pile of nothing. 

And this year has been excellent so far.

I also disagree on the Williams trade.  There's no earthly way to move that guy without eating salary and he's not the one that stupidly traded for him or stupidly gave him that insane contract to try and save face.  He was the one that had to figure out a way out of that and he did.  Remember, that year was supposed to be a year where they didn't necessarily tank but they ate a bunch of cap to get out of the hell Gettleman left them in so it makes total sense.

I agree he should have traded Barkley and McKinney last year.  No question about it.  Mara likely told him not to do it because as we saw in Hard Knocks he loved Barkley and thought (rightfully) that he was the entire offense.  So trading him away was effectively tanking the season.  Would have gotten them Jayden Daniels had they done it Johnny Boy..but I digress.

But overall yes, I do believe he has hit a lot more than he has missed and this roster is a hell of a lot better than it was when he got here.  The QB is just regressing with every passing week. 

I've mentioned several times that watching Schoen on Hard Knocks was disturbing.  Came across as a little kid who didn't know what to do.  Oh golly gee I hope Barkley doesn't go to Philadelphia.  My fear is there's no plan here and that is strengthened when you see a press conference full of platitudes and cliches.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 13, 2024, 09:51:04 AMLove was a weird situation because he brought the Giants a number, they balked at it and re-signed Slayton with the money, and then he signed for less than what he initially demanded with Seattle.

Slayton was the safety net for Jones. I think their priority was providing all the support for him and Love was secondary (pun intended).

Schoen has done a good job imo. The 22 draft didn't end up as great as many of us thought after getting Thibs and Neal, but those players were highly touted and not many stars drafted after them. The Wandale pick was atrocious with Pickens still being there.  The 23 draft was bad for sure and the 24 draft looks to be very good. Burns trade was very good.  That D is a DT and another CB away from being very good.