Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 13, 2024, 04:52:33 PMUp to that point, the Giants had literally no success with Jones. There was no logical argument to pick up the 5th year option or extend him. Then 2022 happened. They won a playoff game and were drafting 25th overall instead of drafting in the top 10 as I'm willing to bet most people expected. Suddenly, the choice was either re-sign Jones or let him walk and bring in a bridge QB until they were able to draft a replacement. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place after 2022. Had they won even just 6 or 7 games, they probably would have moved on from Jones.

Jones had a solid rookie season and theb 2 bad years with Garrett and Judge and terrible support

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:39:20 PMIn my opinion, Jones wasn't fatally flawed; the organization that drafted him was.  They did everything humanly possible to screw up his development and shattered his confidence to the point of seeing ghosts, thanks to over half a decade of league-leading beatings, both physical and mental.

If that's true how is it McShay absolutely nailed his assessment to the letter? Dumb luck? That's pretty damn lucky.  He saw in college exactly what we have seen in the NFL. Jones the same guy he's always been.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 07:14:21 PMIf that's true how is it McShay absolutely nailed his assessment to the letter? Dumb luck? That's pretty damn lucky.  He saw in college exactly what we have seen in the NFL. Jones the same guy he's always been.

I don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance.  Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6?   Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ?  Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent?   Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week?  Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one?   Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:25:34 PMI don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance.  Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6?   Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ?  Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent?   Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week?  Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one?   Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?

For the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 07:55:35 PMFor the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.

After Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?


As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 07:55:35 PMFor the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.

Agreed.

Additionally, it's not like McShay was the only observer with a platform who was not high on Jones the prospect. Plenty others were down on the pick. At best, Jones was a controversial pick among the pundits/experts.

I also wouldn't exactly say Giants fans loved the pick in real time (see below):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDUpL7JIOiI

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:59:58 PMAfter Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?


As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.

It was not only McShay; numerous individuals on this platform raised concerns about Daniel Jones' processing ability and his difficulty in making anticipatory throws, both of which were consistently cited as potential limitations in his development as a passer. This assessment was evident early on, and if others failed to recognize it, it is challenging to convey its importance further.

Moreover, the idea that the Giants 'broke' Jones is perplexing. This viewpoint implies that he was somehow 'broken' in 2023, despite being lauded as a franchise quarterback by many of the same commentators in 2022. Observing these individuals now shift their perspectives, seemingly to defend previously held beliefs despite contradictory evidence, is certainly entertaining.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2024, 08:10:12 PMIt was not only McShay; numerous individuals on this platform raised concerns about Daniel Jones' processing ability and his difficulty in making anticipatory throws, both of which were consistently cited as potential limitations in his development as a passer. This assessment was evident early on, and if others failed to recognize it, it is challenging to convey its importance further.

Moreover, the idea that the Giants 'broke' Jones is perplexing. This viewpoint implies that he was somehow 'broken' in 2023, despite being lauded as a franchise quarterback by many of the same commentators in 2022. Observing these individuals now shift their perspectives, seemingly to defend previously held beliefs despite contradictory evidence, is certainly entertaining.

So, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declare DJ no good, you are at serious risk of confirmation bias (especially true with people who mock others whom they incorrectly perceive as wrong).  Oh, and changing one's opinion in the light of new evidence is not a bad thing; it's a good thing.  Thats what we do in science we strive to get it right, not to engage pointless contests about who was right or wrong, we focus on getting it right so we are always open to adjusting our views.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:20:13 PMSo, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declared DJ no good, any sort of objectiveness would naturally fly out the window.

So if they evaluate a QB coming out of college and through game film and interviews with coaches/players determine that they wouldn't take this guy.  How should they proceed?  These pundits are wrong all the time, this is not to say McShay nails every evaluation he has.  If he did, he'd be the greatest GM of all time.  But he nailed this one.  And he wasn't alone.  In fact if you were to remember back to that night, Gettleman and his evaluation were more alone than anybody else. 

Bill Polian thought Lamar Jackson was a WR. Whoops.  That doesn't mean that today he'd lose all objectivity and continue to believe that Lamar isn't a good QB.  He's one of the best in the league and Polian missed on that one.  It happens.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:59:58 PMAfter Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?


As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.

Yes, I'm sure Evan Neal is not a can't miss stud tackle. I don't think a game where he displayed obvious balance issues against one of the worst defenses in the league changes that. I don't lower standards and expectations to fit narratives.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 08:36:06 PMYes, I'm sure Evan Neal is not a can't miss stud tackle. I don't think a game where he displayed obvious balance issues against one of the worst defenses in the league changes that. I don't lower standards and expectations to fit narratives.

I am heavily involved in the draft every year.  No one was saying Neal was a "can't miss stud tackle."  They believed he was a notch below that level.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 08:27:30 PMSo if they evaluate a QB coming out of college and through game film and interviews with coaches/players determine that they wouldn't take this guy.  How should they proceed?  These pundits are wrong all the time, this is not to say McShay nails every evaluation he has.  If he did, he'd be the greatest GM of all time.  But he nailed this one.  And he wasn't alone.  In fact if you were to remember back to that night, Gettleman and his evaluation were more alone than anybody else. 

Bill Polian thought Lamar Jackson was a WR. Whoops.  That doesn't mean that today he'd lose all objectivity and continue to believe that Lamar isn't a good QB.  He's one of the best in the league and Polian missed on that one.  It happens.

As HOF Bill Polian says, those pundits like Shey literally know only a third about draft prospects that NFL teams know about prospects.  As you said, Shey gets it wrong frequently, so the simplest and most obvious answer to your question (assuming they agree with your opinion that Shey was spot on) is dumb luck.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:44:31 PMAs HOF Bill Polian says, those pundits like Shey literally know only a third about draft prospects that NFL teams know about prospects.  As you said, Shey gets it wrong frequently, so the simplest and most obvious answer to your question (assuming they agree with your opinion that Shey was spot on) is dumb luck.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile

I'd buy that more if he had just said "i hate the pick" rather than getting into the exact specific reasons which have played out over the course of Jones career.  That's entirely too specific for me to think it was just lucky.  He must have seen something that Gettleman didn't.  Especially when you factor in the dozens of others who shared that opinion. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:41:51 PMI am heavily involved in the draft every year.  No one was saying Neal was a "can't miss stud tackle."  They believed he was a notch below that level.

Neal didn't show anything against Carolina that would make any good faith observer believe he is capable of living up to what he was sold to be in the draft.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:20:13 PMSo, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declare DJ no good, you are at serious risk of confirmation bias (especially true with people who mock others whom they incorrectly perceive as wrong).  Oh, and changing one's opinion in the light of new evidence is not a bad thing; it's a good thing.  Thats what we do in science we strive to get it right, not to engage pointless contests about who was right or wrong, we focus on getting it right so we are always open to adjusting our views.

That's not what you're doing on this site. You previously talked about Jones as a top-10 caliber QB. Now you're blaming the organization instead of accepting any responsibility for your posts over the years.