Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 09:36:33 AMDJ didn't start until week 3 but still through 24 TDs, sort of hard to dismiss that as unsuccessful especially for a rookie with no number one WR (or even a good receiver corps) and mediocre protection.

Why argue a topic I literally said we just are going to have to disagree on and didn't even offer any substantive response? What earthly purpose could this serve? I'm trying not to descend into the muck where I know we will simply not see eye-to-eye, so please stop.

QuoteAs to Schoen and Daboll, they gave him a deal premised on potential and Jones's ability to develop.

I completely agree with that statement.  Knowing more about DJ than anyone on the planet they saw franchise potential not a very limited QB who needed special schemes for him to be functional

I'm not making any proclamation about what Daboll / Schoen saw in DJ when they he inked after 2022. Your interpretation of the potential they believed Jones had is not gospel--the deal itself indicates they didn't think he was worth a full franchise-level investment, neither in money or time. There are also other pressures (i.e. Mara) for which you're not accounting. But you have your opinion and that's fine--I am not trying to dissuade you from it (nor do I think that possible) and have little desire to keep going back and forth about topics when we both know where the other lands.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 14, 2024, 09:52:36 AMWhy argue a topic I literally said we just are going to have to disagree on and didn't even offer any substantive response? What earthly purpose could this serve? I'm trying not to descend into the muck where I know we will simply not see eye-to-eye, so please stop.

I'm not making any proclamation about what Daboll / Schoen saw in DJ when they he inked after 2022. Your interpretation of the potential they believed Jones had is not gospel--the deal itself indicates they didn't think he was worth a full franchise-level investment, neither in money or time. There are also other pressures (i.e. Mara) for which you're not accounting. But you have your opinion and that's fine--I am not trying to dissuade you from it (nor do I think that possible) and have little desire to keep going back and forth about topics when we both know where the other lands.

To point one, dismissing a point because it doesn't fit your narrative and claiming you are doing so "to avoid the muck" isn't how I would do things.

To point two, I do not buy it.  You said they signed him to a deal due to potential and then immediately dismissed that and tried to say only I was talking about potential.  Clearly Schoen and Daboll saw franchise abilities in Daniel Jones or they wouldn't have inked that contract.  It would be better to adjust your position, than ignore these critical points, in my opinion

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 10:06:47 AMTo point one, dismissing a point because it doesn't fit your narrative and claiming you are doing so "to avoid the muck" isn't how I would do things.

I didn't dismiss your argument--I said I didn't think your single point "ruined" my argument. You know the difference.  This is the muck. Thanks for bringing me here despite my pleas.

QuoteTo point two, I do not buy it. You said they signed him to a deal due to potential and then immediately dismissed that and tried to say only I was talking about potential.  Clearly Schoen and Daboll saw franchise abilities in Daniel Jones or they wouldn't have inked that contract.  It would be better to adjust your position, than ignore these critical points, in my opinion

Come on. At least present my point consistently. I noted in the same breath about potential other factors at play, specifically Mara, that you ignore. I said the deal was premised on potential and development, and you want to twist that into I now mean Daboll/Schoen unequivocally saw franchise potential. I didn't say that.

And do not deign to tell me to "adjust my position." Not once have I attempted to dissuade you from your opinions--noting how reasonable minds could differ on these matters--now here you are telling me to change while misrepresenting my point. You should be embarrassed at this with how often you cry out for civility, about being attacked for your opinions, etc.

Take your last word and be done please.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 08:45:04 AMThat is an interesting theory, but DJ's successful season under Pat Shurmur (albeit with rookie turnover issues) ruins it.   It wasn't like Daboll and Shurmur were running the same offense. 

MG, my opinion on this has always been we will get a better idea of whose idea it was to extend jones at the end of the season. If Daboll and schoen get fired I would surmise it was their decision. If they don't it will support my feeling that jones was forced on them by mara, mara knows that and will give them a chance with a qb of their choosing. I think this is what happenned and schoen did the best he could by making it a 2 year deal. I'm hoping at this point we don't win any more games as I've seen the meaningless wins movie before. Daboll offense has a million guys open. He just doesn't have a qb that will throw it to them. The line looks better and even though the improvements haven't shown up in the win column as of yet I think you stay the course and let the coach and GM grow.

I am not against keeping Daboll and Schoen.  My only concern has been raised by others as well:

If both are with the Giants in 2025 and a QB is drafted in the 1st round, then they really need to be around for 2026 to avoid stunting that QBs growth. 

So, are people prepared to keep them both around through 2026? 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 14, 2024, 11:32:18 AMI am not against keeping Daboll and Schoen.  My only concern has been raised by others as well:

If both are with the Giants in 2025 and a QB is drafted in the 1st round, then they really need to be around for 2026 to avoid stunting that QBs growth. 

So, are people prepared to keep them both around through 2026? 

100% Yes.

People expecting a quick turn-around are not going to get it. Daboll is good with young QBs and will have his new gun push the ball downfield. The first year could be a mixed bag as the rookie gets used to the speed of the NFL game.

Two years with a new QB is the minimum. For me, I need to see significant improvement in QB play and offensive production. If that doesn't happen, I'm all for bringing in someone who can capitalize on having a capable young rookie.

Quote from: T200 on November 14, 2024, 11:36:55 AM100% Yes.

People expecting a quick turn-around are not going to get it. Daboll is good with young QBs and will have his new gun push the ball downfield. The first year could be a mixed bag as the rookie gets used to the speed of the NFL game.

Two years with a new QB is the minimum. For me, I need to see significant improvement in QB play and offensive production. If that doesn't happen, I'm all for bringing in someone who can capitalize on having a capable young rookie.

They may need to sit a rookie for most or al of next depending on where they are in their development.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 14, 2024, 11:46:06 AMThey may need to sit a rookie for most or al of next depending on where they are in their development.

I'm good with that too. I think a lot of these newer QBs struggle because they're thrown in too quickly. Just because they come from NFL-ready or pro-style offenses in college, everything about the NFL game is faster.

Patience is key and letting a rookie sit for the first year is not a bad idea.

I am listening to the Brandon Brown interview.  I would replace Schoen with Brandon Brown in a heart-beat.

Since Brown is the Asst GM, there would even be some continuity

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 12:24:29 PMI am listening to the Brandon Brown interview.  I would replace Schoen with Brandon Brown in a heart-beat.

Since Brown is the Asst GM, there would even be some continuity

Why?

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2024, 01:15:09 PMWhy?

Ed,

I was impressed with his resume and background when he was hired.  I have always been impressed when I hear him speak.  Listen to the interview on the podcast (you can find it on the thread I posted about a new podcast).  I listed to the interview as if I was an owner hiring a GM.  I really think he's an intelligent man with good ideas and a plan.

I'm glad we have Brown, he only learned from arguably the best GM in the league. Top 2 at the very least.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 02:58:46 PMI'm glad we have Brown, he only learned from arguably the best GM in the league. Top 2 at the very least.

That is another reason

Name a hot candidate that could replace Daboll right now that isn't Ben Johnson?

I'm not as down on Schoen and Daboll as everyone else. What has schoen failed at? Not trading Mckinney and Barkley? Besides that I think he's done well, and Daboll is a great coach imo. A qb that teammates believe can win lifts all tides. Everyone will play better knowing we can win, with Jones they know the result. With an average qb this is a 9 win team easy. Being anemic at qb causes the whole offense problems and the defense. I think you have to give them a chance with anyone but Jones.

You fire a GM coming off a 4 star draft?  That's not smart.  That flea flicker play that probably should have been a TD caused Curt Warner, who rarely criticizes a QB to come down hard on Jones.  Tell me, if you're Dexter or Burns or anyone on the D and you see a QB like Jones not make plays that any decent QB should make, does that not affect the entire team performance?  The Giants OL, prior to the Thomas injury, went from horrible to decent with the addition of average players.  Even an average QB would make a huge impact.