Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 10:15:38 AMTim,

I am confused.  If we are saying the reason for DJ's decline is that the offensive system changed and the DJ couldn't play as well in the new system, there exists only two possibilities. 

1) Daboll couldn't create changes in the successful 2022 system that provided the needed changes while still being a system DJ did well in

2) Daboll could create the needed changes that played to DJ's strengths, but Daboll decided not to go that route

If I didn't understand what you said, what which option (of the two provided) are you choosing?

Rich,

You're a smart dude. I'm no dummy either. To try and limit me to YOUR two options is pointless.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 22, 2024, 10:12:34 AMPlus there's no Barkley, who was a real weapon in the 2022 offense.

Furthermore, we heard Schoen say "we are not paying a QB 40 mil to hand it off".

Both are undoubtedly a factor in the change of offensive scheme.

Tracey is playing at levels comparable to those of Barkley

to the other factor

If Schoen influenced the offense for the worse, what does that say about his ability as a GM, since GMs should be striving to win more game, not less (plus, Schoen decided what to pay the parties in question)?

Quote from: T200 on November 22, 2024, 10:17:08 AMRich,

You're a smart dude. I'm no dummy either. To try and limit me to YOUR two options is pointless.

Tim,

If you spotted a flaw in my reasoning, I am all ears.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 10:19:42 AMTim,

If you spotted a flaw in my reasoning, I am all ears.

I thought I just did lol!

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 09:12:48 AMBob,

I see what you're saying.  What I still don't understand/explain is why he was so much better at it in 2022 than he was in 2024

I'll take a stab at this. From the naked eye/my memory, I feel like when he did those roll outs - he went to Bellinger or Saquon an awful lot. For some reason he really got away from using the TE in the same way. I also hated that he didn't use the seam pass in recent years because early on Jones was very proficient at that.

Quote from: T200 on November 22, 2024, 10:20:14 AMI thought I just did lol!

I am not sure "I don't want to be hemmed in with the choices you provided" constitutes a "flaw".  At the very least, I don't see it as a flaw.  I took great pains to explain my reasoning and how I arrived at the conclusions I did.  I feel like I was ripped off after putting in that sort of effort, only to be met with what was essentially-  I don't like/agree with it.

Still, I do agree with your assertion that fans can fan anyway they wish, so I guess there isn't anything more to say about the topic.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 09:36:43 AMSo are you saying that Daboll changed the offense to one that DJ wouldn't be as successful in?  I understand "the training wheels came off" to mean Daboll changed the offensive scheme.  Based on the results, it's safe to say Daboll changed the scheme, causing his QB to perform worse (and, by extension, the team).

To intentionally perform worse? No. He did it to expand the Playbook so they didn't become easy to have tendencies read. A QB has to be able to work within the pocket, make reads quickly, and get the pass off in about 2.5 seconds or less, often in anticipation. They needed to see if he was able to do this. Garrett tried and Jones failed then as he has now. This is something a rookie like Jayden Daniels can do right out of college.

If you recall, when Daboll came on he asked DJ what plays he felt most comfortable in. The high-low scheme was one. The Roll out was to avoid pressure. Shallow Mesh was another route they did in 2022. This year, Jones did progress where he was able to move effectively in the pocket and sense pressure better. What he was not able to do was get to the next level and hit Receivers in stride and at times in anticipation. I think I told you on the phone to watch Matt Stafford's game last week and see how an elite QB executes his game.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 22, 2024, 10:25:23 AMTo intentionally perform worse? No. He did it to expand the Playbook so they didn't become easy to have tendencies read. A QB has to be able to work within the pocket, make reads quickly, and get the pass off in about 2.5 seconds or less, often in anticipation. They needed to see if he was able to do this. Garrett tried and Jones failed then as he has now. This is something a rookie like Jayden Daniels can do right out of college.

If you recall, when Daboll came on he asked DJ what plays he felt most comfortable in. The high-low scheme was one. The Roll out was to avoid pressure. Shallow Mesh was another route they did in 2022. This year, Jones did progress where he was able to move effectively in the pocket and sense pressure better. What he was not able to do was get to the next level and hit Receivers in stride and at times in anticipation. I think I told you on the phone to watch Matt Stafford's game last week and see how an elite QB executes his game.

Per PFF

DJ's time to throw by year

2022-  24th 3.63 seconds
2023-  24th 3.54 seconds
2024-  15th 3.41 seconds

QuoteIf you recall, when Daboll came on he asked DJ what players he felt most comfortable in.

After 2022, I never heard Daboll speak about what DJ preferred.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 10:24:15 AMI am not sure "I don't want to be hemmed in with the choices you provided" constitutes a "flaw".  At the very least, I don't see it as a flaw.  I took great pains to explain my reasoning and how I arrived at the conclusions I did.  I feel like I was ripped off after putting in that sort of effort, only to be met with what was essentially-  I don't like/agree with it.

Still, I do agree with your assertion that fans can fan anyway they wish, so I guess there isn't anything more to say about the topic.

It's a flaw in that you only care to discuss your perspective and there's no room for another. Every response I give is met with what amounts to Daboll being the culprit without assigning any culpability to DJ's limitations as an NFL QB.

As I said, you're an intelligent man and your words are chosen carefully. I'm pick up what you put down. 

Quote from: T200 on November 22, 2024, 10:56:19 AMIt's a flaw in that you only care to discuss your perspective and there's no room for another. Every response I give is met with what amounts to Daboll being the culprit without assigning any culpability to DJ's limitations as an NFL QB.

As I said, you're an intelligent man and your words are chosen carefully. I'm pick up what you put down. 

Tim,

I literally asked for differing perspectives.  The only qualifier I had was it was on par in terms of providing the reasoning that supported the differing perspective.  There was plenty of room for an equally reasoned counterpoint.  When you start getting into ideas like "culprits" and "culpability," you lose me. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 11:03:03 AMTim,

I literally asked for differing perspectives.  The only qualifier I had was it was on par in terms of providing the reasoning that supported the differing perspective.  There was plenty of room for an equally reasoned counterpoint.  When you start getting into ideas like "culprits" and "culpability," you lose me. 

You want a different perspective but when I give it to you, I lose you. Can't have it both ways, Rich.

Quote from: T200 on November 22, 2024, 11:04:41 AMYou want a different perspective but when I give it to you, I lose you. Can't have it both ways, Rich.

The problem with how the issue was being discussed was that the perspectives were apples and oranges.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 10:17:58 AMTracey is playing at levels comparable to those of Barkley

to the other factor

If Schoen influenced the offense for the worse, what does that say about his ability as a GM, since GMs should be striving to win more game, not less (plus, Schoen decided what to pay the parties in question)?

He is. But he didn't play for the first 5 weeks and I don't believe Schoen picks the team each week.

We get it, you dislike Schoen. Other people want to see how this plays out.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 22, 2024, 11:14:20 AMHe is. But he didn't play for the first 5 weeks and I don't believe Schoen picks the team each week.

We get it, you dislike Schoen. Other people want to see how this plays out.

Ed,

I don't think "we" (congrats on getting elected spokesperson for our entire forum  ) "get it"

It 100% doesn't have to do with me "liking" or "disliking" Schoen.  As a man, I like Schoen; he appears to be a good guy and someone I wouldn't mind having a beer with.   

Contrary to your efforts to paint my position as emotional rather than reasoned, my position on Schoen is based on what I have observed of his job performance over the past three years, including the unprecedented access Hard Knocks provided to me. As a fan, my favorite aspect of football is team building. It's why I have read so many books by NFL people about team building and formulas for NFL success.

I am not going to tell you how to fan; if you believe that Schoen's job performance does a 180 in his 4th year, who am I to dispel you of that belief?

Quote from: T200 on November 22, 2024, 10:02:54 AMI think you hit the nail on the head. As you mentioned in an earlier post, we've watched decades of football. Such a basic offense has a short shelf life in the NFL. Once teams figure it out, it's a wrap. And it really didn't take long. The Giants had the 2nd-most one-score victories that season, behind Minnesota. They had favorable bounces that could have easily resulted in a loss instead of a win.

It was imperative to open the playbook and keep defenses guessing. That's what Daboll did. We saw the results of an expanded offense with a QB who couldn't expand his game accordingly.

So yes, you're technically correct in that Daboll changed the offense and the end result was not successful. But it can't be distilled to that. There's a reason for the failure and it was poor execution by the main driver of that offense.

With all the respect in the world for you, I don't have an issue with your cause-effect synthesis pointing to the QB; however, starting in 2023, it was one of several direct causes which hampered this team.

You can start with Graham Gano. 2022 was arguably one of his best seasons with the Giants. His performance in his first three seasons with the team were off the charts. But he made a number of clutch kicks, with many over 50 yards, and several 55+, which put the Giants in position to win games or actually win. The last two seasons, he's been injured and his magic has escaped him. As a result, before he went on injured reserve both seasons, he missed critical kicks that could have won games for the Giants. Four different kickers in 2023? Three in 2024? So, the kicking game has been every bit of a factor because if the offense couldn't score TDs, Gano was automatic in the past. The last two seasons it's been Keystone Kaper Kickers and its impact so significant that Daboll has turned down FG attempts and left the offensive on the field during fourth down. Every missed fourth down conversion attempt, which could have translated into three points, had he trusted his kicker, is yet another direct cause.

Should we dive into the lack of stability at the Left Tackle position? Thomas, when healthy, is indeed a Giant asset on the line. When injured, however, offensive performance takes a nosedive. The Neal saga at Right Tackle has been discussed ad nauseum and he's playing for likely his next team over the final seven game stretch. It's been how many years of "fix the damned offensive line" and, in spite of this season's promising start, the dominoes fell the moment Thomas went down and was gone for the year. Tough.

So, we can start with the QB but there are so many other interrelated facets which co-conspired to bring it all off track into the ditch and, apart from this season's likely contenders they've played, the team has stood up and faught to the very end in each game.

If DeVito can shake things up for a while, and the team responds, well good on him and I hope he succeeds and further develops his craft into a well-rounded NFL quarterback who can make waves should the starter go down. But make no mistake, he will need a reasonably capable line, a capable kicking game to salvage points he leaves on the field and, most important, showcase his development progress from last year. Maybe show everyone what he can do outside the pocket.

Everyone wanted the QB change, and everyone's wish was granted. Full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes!

Peace!