Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 11:21:46 AMEd,

I don't think "we" (congrats on getting elected spokesperson for our entire forum  ) "get it"

It 100% doesn't have to do with me "liking" or "disliking" Schoen.  As a man, I like Schoen; he appears to be a good guy and someone I wouldn't mind having a beer with.   

Contrary to your efforts to paint my position as emotional rather than reasoned, my position on Schoen is based on what I have observed of his job performance over the past three years, including the unprecedented access Hard Knocks provided to me. As a fan, my favorite aspect of football is team building. It's why I have read so many books by NFL people about team building and formulas for NFL success.

I am not going to tell you how to fan; if you believe that Schoen's job performance does a 180 in his 4th year, who am I to dispel you of that belief?

I am wondering, how do you feel Schoen compares to Gettleman?  The reason I ask is because I recall you giving Gettleman a much longer leash than Schoen, while in my opinion Schoen has done a LOT more good than Gettleman ever did.  He screwed up giving Jones that contract, but if he is able to bring in a QB that can read a defense this offseason, I firmly believe the team is going to be pretty good next year.  I could be wrong, but I do have hope.  I never had hope with Gettleman.

Quote from: kartanoman on November 22, 2024, 11:40:52 AMWith all the respect in the world for you, I don't have an issue with your cause-effect synthesis pointing to the QB; however, starting in 2023, it was one of several direct causes which hampered this team.

You can start with Graham Gano. 2022 was arguably one of his best seasons with the Giants. His performance in his first three seasons with the team were off the charts. But he made a number of clutch kicks, with many over 50 yards, and several 55+, which put the Giants in position to win games or actually win. The last two seasons, he's been injured and his magic has escaped him. As a result, before he went on injured reserve both seasons, he missed critical kicks that could have won games for the Giants. Four different kickers in 2023? Three in 2024? So, the kicking game has been every bit of a factor because if the offense couldn't score TDs, Gano was automatic in the past. The last two seasons it's been Keystone Kaper Kickers and its impact so significant that Daboll has turned down FG attempts and left the offensive on the field during fourth down. Every missed fourth down conversion attempt, which could have translated into three points, had he trusted his kicker, is yet another direct cause.

Should we dive into the lack of stability at the Left Tackle position? Thomas, when healthy, is indeed a Giant asset on the line. When injured, however, offensive performance takes a nosedive. The Neal saga at Right Tackle has been discussed ad nauseum and he's playing for likely his next team over the final seven game stretch. It's been how many years of "fix the damned offensive line" and, in spite of this season's promising start, the dominoes fell the moment Thomas went down and was gone for the year. Tough.

So, we can start with the QB but there are so many other interrelated facets which co-conspired to bring it all off track into the ditch and, apart from this season's likely contenders they've played, the team has stood up and faught to the very end in each game.

If DeVito can shake things up for a while, and the team responds, well good on him and I hope he succeeds and further develops his craft into a well-rounded NFL quarterback who can make waves should the starter go down. But make no mistake, he will need a reasonably capable line, a capable kicking game to salvage points he leaves on the field and, most important, showcase his development progress from last year. Maybe show everyone what he can do outside the pocket.

Everyone wanted the QB change, and everyone's wish was granted. Full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes!

Peace!

Excellent points, Chris. You get no disagreement from me on any of them.

There are different aspects of a head coach's responsibilities. The Gano and Thomas issues fall on the personnel/roster side, and as such, also include Schoen. Not absolving Daboll of anything... just adding a little more detail.

Offensive production is 100% on Daboll as he took over playcalling this year. I'm on record stating that I'm not a fan of it for several reasons. That's definitely an area that I ding him on because he is ultimately responsible for the entire team, not just the offense, all the while understanding that is where his bread is buttered.

I feel he has very good weapons in the skill positions and his upgrades to the offensive line should have provided enough support for Jones to show marked improvement this year. It didn't, even with Thomas in the lineup.

My concern is that DeVito will push the ball downfield enough to force defenses to back out of the box, thus opening the door for Tracy. We will win 2-3 games and again push ourselves out of the Sanders lottery.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 22, 2024, 11:43:45 AMI am wondering, how do you feel Schoen compares to Gettleman?  The reason I ask is because I recall you giving Gettleman a much longer leash than Schoen, while in my opinion Schoen has done a LOT more good than Gettleman ever did.  He screwed up giving Jones that contract, but if he is able to bring in a QB that can read a defense this offseason, I firmly believe the team is going to be pretty good next year.  I could be wrong, but I do have hope.  I never had hope with Gettleman.

It's really hard for me to judge the Gettleman regime.  The way I saw it, it seemed like Joe Judge, rather than Gettleman, was calling the shots.  I think his combative nature hindered his job performance.  He did have some real hits during his time, including Dexter, AT, Love, and McKinney, and while there are issues with positional value, Barkley (as we have witnessed with Philly) is a special running back.

Still, ultimately, the NFL is a results-driven business.  Gettleman inherited a 3-13 team, and after 4 years, he left the team with a 4-13 team (with a gift of extra high first-round pick and change).  Simply not good enough.  As of this posting, Schoen has the potential to do worse (in terms of record) after three years at the helm.  Who knows, maybe Schoen and Daboll turn things around.

One other comparison, I will say, is that at least Gettleman had a vision for team building.  He wanted to run the ball, stop the run, and get to the opposing QB.  His drafting and free agent signings never allowed him to realize his vision (and I can't say I completely agree with his vision), but at least he had a vision for where he was leading the team.  I don't see Schoen having a vision for where he wants the team to be outside of winning more games.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 10:35:55 AMPer PFF

DJ's time to throw by year

2022-  24th 3.63 seconds
2023-  24th 3.54 seconds
2024-  15th 3.41 seconds

That's incorrect. His average TTT:
2022- 21st- 3.03
2024- 11th- 2.74

This was weighted by his higher 2.5 TTT. His Completion % in +2.5 in 2023 was 47.6% and under 2.5 it was 80.4%. It was the same the other years. His completion % was much higher when he threw in less than 2.5 seconds. Thus the change.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 22, 2024, 12:05:16 PMThat's incorrect. His average TTT:
2022- 21st- 3.03
2024- 11th- 2.74

This was weighted by his higher 2.5 TTT. His Completion % in +2.5 in 2023 was 47.6% and under 2.5 it was 80.4%. It was the same the other years. His completion % was much higher when he threw in less than 2.5 seconds. Thus the change.

Ed,

There is an anomaly with PFF.  If you take the TTT from DJ's player page, they are the numbers you cite.  If you take the numbers from the QB listing, they are those I listed.   I don't have an explanation as to why they are different.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 11:59:41 AMIt's really hard for me to judge the Gettleman regime.  The way I saw it, it seemed like Joe Judge, rather than Gettleman, was calling the shots.  I think his combative nature hindered his job performance.  He did have some real hits during his time, including Dexter, AT, Love, and McKinney, and while there are issues with positional value, Barkley (as we have witnessed with Philly) is a special running back.

Still, ultimately, the NFL is a results-driven business.  Gettleman inherited a 3-13 team, and after 4 years, he left the team with a 4-13 team (with a gift of extra high first-round pick and change).  Simply not good enough.  As of this posting, Schoen has the potential to do worse (in terms of record) after three years at the helm.  Who knows, maybe Schoen and Daboll turn things around.

One other comparison, I will say, is that at least Gettleman had a vision for team building.  He wanted to run the ball, stop the run, and get to the opposing QB.  His drafting and free agent signings never allowed him to realize his vision (and I can't say I completely agree with his vision), but at least he had a vision for where he was leading the team.  I don't see Schoen having a vision for where he wants the team to be outside of winning more games.

I think that's where we disagree the most.  I saw NO vision from Gettleman.  I saw a guy throwing stuff against the wall.  Trying to win now "drafting Barkley, keeping Eli" then "ehhh trade OBJ" rendering those first moves stupid.  Wants to run the ball in a passing league...sure...but no real plan to make that happen besides drafting a RB touched by the hand of God and put him on a team with no OL and then trading away the only receiving threat on the roster that could, ya know, help draw defense away from Barkley.

Schoen on the other hand is building the lines.  Draft picks and FA/Trades are primarily focused on the lines.  Sucks that Neal flopped (unless something has finally unlocked there) but was able to recognize that and signed 2 more guys that look much better.  Draft JMS when he was considered the best C available in the draft and he's improving under the new coach too.  Burns/Thibs on the DL.  If you want to include LB as part of the front 7 Okereke signed and has been tremendous.  To me he's actually doing what Gettleman said he wanted to do but didn't actually do.  Which tracks with the entire Gettleman regime for me:  All bark no bite. 

I am of the belief right now that this roster is solid from top to bottom and good enough to win with IF you get a QB. I want to see how they look with a QB that can read a defense, convert big plays, extend plays that break down, have the guts to see Nabers out there and say "screw it, it's one on one and I trust my guy is better than your guy".  If they get that QB and the still stink then yea, they gotta go, but I really think they have most of the pieces in place.  Just missing the most important one which not coincidentally is the toughest one to find.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 09:12:48 AMBob,

I see what you're saying.  What I still don't understand/explain is why he was so much better at it in 2022 than he was in 2024

Rich: At this point it COULD be an injury but I seriously doubt it. I watched the game where Collinsworth was the announcer, and from what he said I conclude that Jones doesn't give a rat's @ss about his body, or any prior (or possible future) injury. I hope Dallas grabs him to see how he reacts to having a true top WR who will get in his face (with some attached gravitas). Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 22, 2024, 12:06:55 PMEd,

There is an anomaly with PFF.  If you take the TTT from DJ's player page, they are the numbers you cite.  If you take the numbers from the QB listing, they are those I listed.   I don't have an explanation as to why they are different.

I go to position and QB then time in pocket. It breaks it down total and by -2.5 and 2.5+. It then can rank them.