Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on November 30, 2024, 06:51:29 PMIt's all good, Rich. Despite the contention, I still consider you a friend and a good guy. 👍🏾👊🏾

Back at you. 

Did everyone really read the article and what it says?

Daboll and Schoen need time with their own guy to really see if they have the talent to be coach and GM of the Giants.
I'm sure, that when Daboll was hired he showed his vision of how he was to help the Giants. He probably had an offensive plan and I would assume the Maras and Tischs agreed he was the guy. Do we really know how much of that offensive plan was ever put into play? We don't, we just assume that since Jones was such a poor QB and couldn't operate even a vanilla offense, shouldn't Daboll have the opportunity to, at the very least, try and implement a real NFL offense?
Even on this board, gosh, he got crucified for trying to do something not vanilla with the wildcat. Sure it failed, but if it had succeeded would he be a better coach? Just the way it looks to me, Daboll has a good to very good offensive mind, yet he has been hampered by a QB who simply couldn't grasp it and it had to continue to be dumbed down for him. Is that the way you evaluate a coach?
Some ask, if he were truly a QB guru, why couldn't he help Joines? YOu can't spin gold out of straw. Daboll used smoke and mirrors in 2022 to hide many of Jones's faults, he dumbed down the offense to fit what Jones could do and we won a few more games and even a playoff game. Once DCs saw what Daboll was doing, they adjusted and we know what happened after that. Can you continue to dumb down an offense that has already been dumbed down? That is the situation Daboll is in.
Like Tim said, he is far from perfect and I would take BB in a heartbeat if the Giants wanted to go that way, but in reality he does deserve a chance with a QB who can run a legit NFL offense.

This offense looks exactly the same to me as the Judge/Garrett offense.

It's hard to put in to words how lousy it looks live. It legitimately looks like they aren't even trying to move the ball. A good offense has 11 players moving in unison. Timing's good, fundamentals sound. The Giants offense is the opposite of that. Lousy fundamentals, lazy routes, nobody working back to the QB, blown blocks, blown assignments, penalties. Nothing's executed properly in the moment. It's just a constant, uncoordinated mess. I am legitimately surprised they've been practicing this offense for 3 years and that's the best they've got. It's why players are grumbling it's not just the QB. The entire operation stinks and it's right there to see.

Why has this been going on since the Coughlin/Gilbride era? No clue.

Quote from: katkavage on November 30, 2024, 02:35:55 PMWhat has Daboll done well? I'm still waiting for a real answer to that.

2022. And he did it so well it screwed up the next 2 years.

Quote from: LennG on November 30, 2024, 07:16:04 PMDid everyone really read the article and what it says?

Daboll and Schoen need time with their own guy to really see if they have the talent to be coach and GM of the Giants.
I'm sure, that when Daboll was hired he showed his vision of how he was to help the Giants. He probably had an offensive plan and I would assume the Maras and Tischs agreed he was the guy. Do we really know how much of that offensive plan was ever put into play? We don't, we just assume that since Jones was such a poor QB and couldn't operate even a vanilla offense, shouldn't Daboll have the opportunity to, at the very least, try and implement a real NFL offense?
Even on this board, gosh, he got crucified for trying to do something not vanilla with the wildcat. Sure it failed, but if it had succeeded would he be a better coach? Just the way it looks to me, Daboll has a good to very good offensive mind, yet he has been hampered by a QB who simply couldn't grasp it and it had to continue to be dumbed down for him. Is that the way you evaluate a coach?
Some ask, if he were truly a QB guru, why couldn't he help Joines? YOu can't spin gold out of straw. Daboll used smoke and mirrors in 2022 to hide many of Jones's faults, he dumbed down the offense to fit what Jones could do and we won a few more games and even a playoff game. Once DCs saw what Daboll was doing, they adjusted and we know what happened after that. Can you continue to dumb down an offense that has already been dumbed down? That is the situation Daboll is in.
Like Tim said, he is far from perfect and I would take BB in a heartbeat if the Giants wanted to go that way, but in reality he does deserve a chance with a QB who can run a legit NFL offense.

Len,

I read the entire article.  Art's impassioned and well-thought-out defense for Schoen and Dabell was impressive.   The problem that I see, is Art's article is looking at the issue from the wrong perspective.  After two consecutive seasons of double-digit losses (and a possible top 3 worst seasons this year) it's time for Schoen and Daboll to reapply for their jobs, so to speak.  For example, who has a more impressive coaching resume?  Daboll or Vrabrel (hint, it's Vrabel).  Go look at the thread and excellent article @DaveBrown74 posted about GM candidates.  Many of those candidates have better academic backgrounds and mentors than Joe Schoen (it's more difficult to directly measure NFL products since GMs tend not to be recycled).  It's not like Schoen's track record is so good that it should be considered an advantage against GMs without a track record.

When a team is as terrible as the NY Giants are, no stone should be left unturned.  So the question that should be asked is not, "should Schoen and Daboll be fired?" rather it should be, "Is Schoen and Daboll the best the Giants can do in terms of management?"

I can't believe people are saying it's "unfair" if Daboll doesn't get a QB he drafted to coach.  Why are people so interested in "fair"?

Life isn't always fair and certainly NFL life isn't.  In what world or job do you get to be worse each year and not fired because it's unfair? 

If they retain him it should be on merits of his coaching, not on some elementary school principle.

If they go 0-5 to close out the season, this will be the most shameful coaching job in Giants history.
https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1862905940673998882?t=9G5nJ9W5LcS6inW5XH1ugw&s=19

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 01, 2024, 09:09:00 AMI can't believe people are saying it's "unfair" if Daboll doesn't get a QB he drafted to coach.  Why are people so interested in "fair"?

Life isn't always fair and certainly NFL life isn't.  In what world or job do you get to be worse each year and not fired because it's unfair? 

If they retain him it should be on merits of his coaching, not on some elementary school principle.

That's what happens when you focus on what is best for Daboll rather than what is best for the NY Giants.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 01, 2024, 09:09:00 AMI can't believe people are saying it's "unfair" if Daboll doesn't get a QB he drafted to coach.  Why are people so interested in "fair"?

Life isn't always fair and certainly NFL life isn't.  In what world or job do you get to be worse each year and not fired because it's unfair? 

If they retain him it should be on merits of his coaching, not on some elementary school principle.

This is a good point and is part of the reason Jones stuck around for 6 years - the argument was 'We didn't see him with a WR', 'we didn't see him with a pass blocking line' etc etc.

You're right, we need to be more ruthless with decisions.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2024, 09:15:10 AMThat's what happens when you focus on what is best for Daboll rather than what is best for the NY Giants.

Not even about being fair. People are saying nonsense like "Daboll DESERVES to work with his own QB". He doesn't "deserve" anything. He is a paid professional. The only thing that matters is the success of the team. You can't pin the atrociousness of the Giants this season and last just on the fact that Daniel Jones was the starting QB. Daboll has shown his incompetence in many areas outside of that. Jones was bad, but not THAT bad that the team is now 2-10 with a horrible offense, defense, and special teams.

Daboll doesn't "deserve his own guy". We the fans deserve a better team.

I don't think Daboll is owed anything nor does he "deserve" anything. The question is are the Giants better off bringing him back for another year with a new QB than they are going with someone totally new. The answer may be no. I am not sure. I'm personally less inclined to dump the coach and GM for two bad seasons, but I'm not categorically saying it's the wrong move. It may be the right move.

Schoen and Daboll officially took ownership of Jones when they gave him the contract they did. And I don't want to hear that Mara forced them to. If that were actually true (which I don't buy that it is), then that's an even worse look for them as that would mean they willingly went along with something they disagreed with an acted like sycophantic puppets in what should be the primes of their careers. That's even worse than willingly making the wrong decision.

Neither is owed anything. The are reaping what they sowed. And it isn't good.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on December 01, 2024, 09:48:55 AMThis is a good point and is part of the reason Jones stuck around for 6 years - the argument was 'We didn't see him with a WR', 'we didn't see him with a pass blocking line' etc etc.

You're right, we need to be more ruthless with decisions.

There is one significant difference in this analogy.  With HC and GM it's all or nothing.  With QBs a team can hedge their bets and draft another QB in case their starter doesn't work out.

For example:

In 2020 they could have drafted Jalen Hurts instead of McKinney

In 2022 they could have drafted Malik Willis instead of Flott

In 2023 they could have drafted Hendon Hooker instead of Hyatt

In 2024 they could have drafted Joe Milton instead of Muasau

Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 01, 2024, 10:00:54 AMDaboll doesn't "deserve his own guy". We the fans deserve a better team.

This times a million         

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2024, 10:06:54 AMThere is one significant difference in this analogy.  With HC and GM it's all or nothing.  With QBs a team can hedge their bets and draft another QB in case their starter doesn't work out.

For example:

In 2020 they could have drafted Jalen Hurts instead of McKinney

In 2022 they could have drafted Malik Willis instead of Flott

In 2023 they could have drafted Hendon Hooker instead of Hyatt

In 2024 they could have drafted Joe Milton instead of Muasau

2020: Schoen wasn't appointed until January 2022.

2022: They didn't need another back-up quality starter in Willis, they already had that.

2023: What's Hooker done to say he's better than a guy that plays?

2024: I think it's far too early to grade anyone out in this draft - both good and bad.

Frankly, he inherited an absolute mess. Has he got everything right? No, of course not and the extension sticks out like a sore thumb here. But but they, in my opinion, could not be spending decent quality draft capital on a back-up QB when they (or Mara) had mistakenly thought they had their guy.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on December 01, 2024, 10:17:11 AM2020: Schoen wasn't appointed until January 2022.

2022: They didn't need another back-up quality starter in Willis, they already had that.

2023: What's Hooker done to say he's better than a guy that plays?

2024: I think it's far too early to grade anyone out in this draft - both good and bad.

Frankly, he inherited an absolute mess. Has he got everything right? No, of course not and the extension sticks out like a sore thumb here. But but they, in my opinion, could not be spending decent quality draft capital on a back-up QB when they (or Mara) had mistakenly thought they had their guy.

Joe Schoen inherited a roster with:

James Bradberry
Leonard Williams
Saquan Barkley
Julian Love
Xavier McKinney
Dex
Andrew Thomas

That's a pretty good core of players.  Throw in two high draft picks (plus extra picks later), and I think Joe had a pretty good start.    Edit to add:  for the sake of full disclosure, Schoen did have a tight salary cap to deal with.