Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: B1GBLUE on December 02, 2024, 08:17:01 AMHe brought something fresh to the table and it worked. but in any business, smoke and mirrors only lasts so long. can you improvise? can you adjust? daboll has never shown that ability, during a game or a season. You NEVER see halftime adjustments. EVER. How many games do we lose on the last drive?

I've said that plenty of times. But how much improvisation can you expect with those QBs? They have a limited skillset that doesn't lend itself to improvisation or opening up the playbook beyond dink and dunk.

I'm in the camp that a coach should tailor an offense around the player's (QB's) talents and what he does well. We saw it: short passing game. That and designed runs for Jones. Those are the things he does well. He lacks in reading defenses, going through his progressions, and improvising. There's only so much a coach can do with a player that has a very limited ability. That's not bashing Jones. That's reality for anyone who watched him play.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 08:22:42 AMTim,

You are pointing Daniel Jones (who led his team to a playoff win), Drew Lock, and Tommy Devito to the back-to-back double-digit loss seasons.  It's worth seeing that the Steelers were capable of producing wins without having a true franchise QB.

As I have said before, you can't evaluate a head coach or GM in a vacuum.  This is a competition so it's how is our GM and HC better or worse than the rest of the league.   Being "good" in isolation is essentially meaningless when the goal it to be the best.

Do the Giants have the exact same roster as the Steelers with the exception of the QB room? No. So what they did with who they did it with is irrelevant. They didn't play the same opponents in the same venues. It's irrelevant.

Let's just stick to this team.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on December 02, 2024, 08:18:44 AMWe had plenty of winnable games over the last 2 seasons. If he's such a qb whisperer, he should be gotten SOMETHING out of any of those guys. Other teams do it ALL the time. and while yes they experience a drop off in play, they can still be competitive and eek out wins. And that goes for all positions, not just QB.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, probably because I am.

It's moot at this point. Your sights are set on getting rid of Daboll. Asking for "proof" or "reasons" he should be retained is just amounting to clay pigeons for you. I don't think any of you really are open to understanding that it goes beyond Daboll. So be it.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 08:29:13 AMDo the Giants have the exact same roster as the Steelers with the exception of the QB room? No. So what they did with who they did it with is irrelevant. They didn't play the same opponents in the same venues. It's irrelevant.

Let's just stick to this team.

No the Giants have a vastly inferior roster outside of the QB room, which speaks volumes for Schoen and Daboll's ability to build a winning team.  You literally filtered out the QB issue and found the pair wanting.  The pair of Schoen and Daboll let tons of talent walk and struggled to draft and develop talent (with no home runs after three drafts with plenty of picks, including very high picks).  That is what I have been trying to point out to you.  If these men can't improve the rest of the team, what makes you believe that allowing them another year to try and improve the team AND the now QB position (which will be draft and cap(for a vet) intensive) will produce positive results?

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 08:32:01 AMI feel like I'm repeating myself, probably because I am.

It's moot at this point. Your sights are set on getting rid of Daboll. Asking for "proof" or "reasons" he should be retained is just amounting to clay pigeons for you. I don't think any of you really are open to understanding that it goes beyond Daboll. So be it.

Tim,

You have been arguing that Schoen and Daboll should be given a pass because of Daniel Jones.  We showed you other teams producing winning seasons with lesser QB talent.  We have pointed to the terrible roster, their habit of bleeding talent, Daboll's unsettled coaching staffs, historically bad seasons, that the team became a laughing stock when everyone saw how they did business on Hard Knocks and other problems, but you keep circling back to Daniel Jones.   In light of that, is it appropriate to suggest that we are the ones not "open to understanding"?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 08:34:11 AMNo the Giants have a vastly inferior roster outside of the QB room, which speaks volumes for Schoen and Daboll's ability to build a winning team.  You literally filtered out the QB issue and found the pair wanting.  The pair of Schoen and Daboll let tons of talent walk and struggled to draft and develop talent (with no home runs after three drafts with plenty of picks, including very high picks).  That is what I have been trying to point out to you.  If these men can't improve the rest of the team, what makes you believe that allowing them another year to try and improve the team AND the now QB position (which will be draft and cap(for a vet) intensive) will produce positive results?

That's an entirely different discussion. We can have that. But I still haven't gotten an answer to my question:

QuoteHow many games did you really expect him to win with Daniel Jones, Drew Lock, and Tommy DeVito as the QBs?

Instead of an answer, you brought up Pickett and Trubisky. What was your win prediction for this season?

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 08:37:53 AMThat's an entirely different discussion. We can have that. But I still haven't gotten an answer to my question:

Instead of an answer, you brought up Pickett and Trubisky. What was your win prediction for this season?

Tim,

That isn't a "different discussion"; it is THE discussion.  Deciding to retain Schoen or Daboll isn't about if they should be fired or deserve more time.  It's about are they the best pair to lead this team moving forward.   If they are not the team to lead this organization, keeping them on for a year or two is only going to prolong the misery.

As for predictions, in my old age, I really grew to appreciate the folly of predictions.  I figured the team, as constituted, had the potential to compete for a playoff spot or compete for the number one pick in the draft.  There were far too many unknowns to make any sort of meaningful prediction.  Those unknowns included if DJ could bounce back, if Daboll's new DC hire was any good if the Giants' O-line would be functional, whether Barnes' incompetence would lead to another season where injuries were a major story if Schoen and Daboll could cobble together a functional defensive secondary, and so on.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 08:43:31 AMTim,

That isn't a "different discussion"; it is THE discussion.  Deciding to retain Schoen or Daboll isn't about if they should be fired or deserve more time.  It's about are they the best pair to lead this team moving forward.   If they are not the team to lead this organization, keeping them on for a year or two is only going to prolong the misery.

As for predictions, in my old age, I really grew to appreciate the random nature of predictions.  I figured the team, as constituted, had the potential to compete for a playoff spot or compete for the number one pick in the draft.  There were far too many unknowns to make any sort of meaningful prediction.  Those unknowns included if DJ could bounce back, if Daboll's new DC hire was any good, if the Giants' O-line would be functional, whether Barnes' incompetence would lead to another season where injuries were a major story, if Schoen and Daboll could cobble together a functional defensive secondary, and so on.

Thank you

Quote from: killarich on December 01, 2024, 06:11:20 PMDaboll once won COTY

So At least once in his short career he was considered better than ALL of his peers

But as some have not pointed out ...he won COY with the former guys team ...not his ... He has had two years to put his team on the field and it is considerably worse than the team he inherited.

Quote from: Woody on December 02, 2024, 08:57:27 AMBut as some have not pointed out ...he won COY with the former guys team ...not his ... He has had two years to put his team on the field and it is considerably worse than the team he inherited.

And the inherited guy, played the worst at the most important position. Kinda hard to sustain success with a boat anchor at QB.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 09:12:00 AMAnd the inherited guy, played the worst at the most important position. Kinda hard to sustain success with a boat anchor at QB.

There is a difference between expecting an HC to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB or at least one who is a solid franchise QB and not racking up double-digit loss seasons in consecutive seasons.  We witnessed that it was possible to win enough games to make the playoffs and win a playoff game with DJ.   That very well may be his season, but since then, it's been nothing but seasons so terrible that you can't blame the failings all on the QB.  As mentioned, teams like the Steelers were able to put up winning records with less in their QB rooms.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 10:07:13 AMThere is a difference between expecting an HC to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB or at least one who is a solid franchise QB and not racking up double-digit loss seasons in consecutive seasons.  We witnessed that it was possible to win enough games to make the playoffs and win a playoff game with DJ.   That very well may be his season, but since then, it's been nothing but seasons so terrible that you can't blame the failings all on the QB.  As mentioned, teams like the Steelers were able to put up winning records with less in their QB rooms.

And here you go again... you introduce something that no one said and try and attribute it to us. We've never said it's all on Jones. He's the biggest reason why the offense fails to put up points.

Until you acknowledge that, we'll never agree on this.

I have talked about how Daboll has failed the team. So stop saying it's all on the QB.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 10:12:11 AMAnd here you go again... you introduce something that no one said and try and attribute it to us. We've never said it's all on Jones. He's the biggest reason why the offense fails to put up points.

Until you acknowledge that, we'll never agree on this.

I have talked about how Daboll has failed the team. So stop saying it's all on the QB.

So you want a head coach who failed the team to continue to lead them.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 10:33:36 AMSo you want a head coach who failed the team to continue to lead them.

The short answer is 'yes'. He hasn't been an abject failure across the board. He won COTY and it wasn't because of Daniel Jones. I've detailed why in other posts.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 10:37:51 AMThe short answer is 'yes'. He hasn't been an abject failure across the board. He won COTY and it wasn't because of Daniel Jones. I've detailed why in other posts.

Tim,

I guess we differ.  I want a head coach who consistently takes the talent he has and produces more wins than they should, like Tom Coughlin for many seasons.   I don't want a coach who you need to defend with, "he hasn't been an abject failure across the board".   I don't think that is the sort of coach that will produce the results we all want.  I can appreciate that you see things differently, but that's how I see it.