Big Blue Huddle

The roster now isn't as good as it was two years ago. The team has no leaders. It's not a pretty picture.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2024, 10:26:07 AMJoe Schoen inherited a roster with:

James Bradberry
Leonard Williams
Saquan Barkley
Julian Love
Xavier McKinney
Dex
Andrew Thomas

That's a pretty good core of players.  Throw in two high draft picks (plus extra picks later), and I think Joe had a pretty good start. 

I disagree. The cap was an absolute mess, so much so that he faced the Love vs Slayton decision because he couldn't afford both.

Bradbury was also too expensive.

Williams was expensive too - he got a second rounder out of that - I don't think that's too bad.

Yes, Thomas and Dex are very good.

Shame he never inherited a QB. Things might be different.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on December 01, 2024, 10:30:55 AMI disagree. The cap was an absolute mess, so much so that he faced the Love vs Slayton decision because he couldn't afford both.

Bradbury was also too expensive.

Williams was expensive too - he got a second rounder out of that - I don't think that's too bad.

Yes, Thomas and Dex are very good.

Shame he never inherited a QB. Things might be different.

Shame the 2022 and 2023 draft classes do not look very good at this point.

Thibodeaux
Neal
Wan'Dale
Ezeudu
Flott
Banks
Schmitz
Hyatt

Those are the top 3 rounds of the 22 and 23 classes. 



Schmitz hasn't taken any significant steps that I can see (he may have in some ways), Neal is a bust and Ezeudu doesn't look like he is going to develop that athleticism into an effective OL. 

Wan'Dale is a decent slot guy, most weren't big on the pick then and I would agree given others that were available at the time.  He is an ok player but slot guys are a dime a dozen. 

Hyatt can't get on the field and hasn't shown much.  We can lay that blame on about a half dozen places but bottom line is he hasn't produced and we haven't really even seen flashes.

Five picks in the top 3 rounds of two drafts have netted them a mediocre (at best) center and a decent slot receiver.  Not exactly knocking it put of the park.
Missing on high OL picks has caused the line to remain mediocre while needing to put cap resources toward patching it up.  Sounds familiar

I like Flott as a depth guy (I think more so than most) and Thibodeaux is a good player although his performance thus far has underachieved compared to what people would want from a 5th pick. 

 
Not sure why Banks seems to have regressed (new DC maybe?) but his future is not looking bright.

We can blame DG for a lot of things, but some how this team won more games with his roster.

He certainly left the team in cap hell and it looks like they may be headed back in that direction if they cannot figure out how to draft decent OL amongst other positions.

 

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 01, 2024, 10:57:59 AMShame the 2022 and 2023 draft classes do not look very good at this point.

Thibodeaux
Neal
Wan'Dale
Ezeudu
Flott
Banks
Schmitz
Hyatt

Those are the top 3 rounds of the 22 and 23 classes. 



Schmitz hasn't taken any significant steps that I can see (he may have in some ways), Neal is a bust and Ezeudu doesn't look like he is going to develop that athleticism into an effective OL. 

Wan'Dale is a decent slot guy, most weren't big on the pick then and I would agree given others that were available at the time.  He is an ok player but slot guys are a dime a dozen. 

Hyatt can't get on the field and hasn't shown much.  We can lay that blame on about a half dozen places but bottom line is he hasn't produced and we haven't really even seen flashes.

Five picks in the top 3 rounds of two drafts have netted them a mediocre (at best) center and a decent slot receiver.  Not exactly knocking it put of the park.


I like Flott as a depth guy (I think more so than most) and Thibodeaux is a good player although his performance thus far has underachieved compared to what people would want from a 5th pick. 

 
Not sure why Banks seems to have regressed (new DC maybe?) but his future is not looking bright.

We can blame DG for a lot of things, but some how this team won more games with his roster.

He certainly left the team in cap hell and it looks like they may be headed back in that direction if they cannot figure out how to draft decent OL amongst other positions.

Carl Banks talked about the draft in his last podcast.  He said the hits need to be so big that no one notices the misses.  I don't think you can describe Schoen's drafts like that.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 01, 2024, 10:57:59 AMShame the 2022 and 2023 draft classes do not look very good at this point.

Thibodeaux
Neal
Wan'Dale
Ezeudu
Flott
Banks
Schmitz
Hyatt

Those are the top 3 rounds of the 22 and 23 classes. 



Schmitz hasn't taken any significant steps that I can see (he may have in some ways), Neal is a bust and Ezeudu doesn't look like he is going to develop that athleticism into an effective OL. 

Wan'Dale is a decent slot guy, most weren't big on the pick then and I would agree given others that were available at the time.  He is an ok player but slot guys are a dime a dozen. 

Hyatt can't get on the field and hasn't shown much.  We can lay that blame on about a half dozen places but bottom line is he hasn't produced and we haven't really even seen flashes.

Five picks in the top 3 rounds of two drafts have netted them a mediocre (at best) center and a decent slot receiver.  Not exactly knocking it put of the park.
Missing on high OL picks has caused the line to remain mediocre while needing to put cap resources toward patching it up.  Sounds familiar

I like Flott as a depth guy (I think more so than most) and Thibodeaux is a good player although his performance thus far has underachieved compared to what people would want from a 5th pick. 

 
Not sure why Banks seems to have regressed (new DC maybe?) but his future is not looking bright.

We can blame DG for a lot of things, but some how this team won more games with his roster.

He certainly left the team in cap hell and it looks like they may be headed back in that direction if they cannot figure out how to draft decent OL amongst other positions.

 

No you're right. They both look awful.

I am looking forward to see how the 24 class pans out in a couple of years.

We fans are just so fickle. Look back at Jerry Reese. Most Giant fans crucify him and say he should have been fired with TC, yet he, as GM, brought us 2 SB Championships. Was he a good GM? In the whole scheme of things, probably no, but his resume still includes 2 Lombardis. Good or bad it happened on his watch so he takes the credit.
Is Schoen as good or bad as Reese? we just don't know, but it is his first effort at this and I see with my own eyes he is getting better at it. His last draft was a big winner, he has tried to fix the OL and if not for a couple of devastating injuries, they were fine. He brought us several very good FAs.
The thing that bothers me and has been brought out in this thread, IMHO he let too many good ball players go. As I have been saying for quite a while, you have to retain your best players. But, even at that, in his defense, look what Gettleman left him when he became GM.
Once again, he is learning on the fly and I do see improvement. While others see a completely depleted roster I see guys with good potential, building blocks for a competitive team, on offense and on defense. Are we good, far from it, but with an NFL-caliber QB, we can be competitive, and isn't that the point? Were we good when we won the last 2 SBs, I don't think so, but we were competitive and we got hot when it counted the most, PLUS we had a HOF QB. When all the chips ae on the table, that is what is missing, not a new GM. 

Quote from: LennG on December 01, 2024, 11:21:45 AMWe fans are just so fickle. Look back at Jerry Reese. Most Giant fans crucify him and say he should have been fired with TC, yet he, as GM, brought us 2 SB Championships. Was he a good GM? In the whole scheme of things, probably no, but his resume still includes 2 Lombardis. Good or bad it happened on his watch so he takes the credit.
Is Schoen as good or bad as Reese? we just don't know, but it is his first effort at this and I see with my own eyes he is getting better at it. His last draft was a big winner, he has tried to fix the OL and if not for a couple of devastating injuries, they were fine. He brought us several very good FAs.
The thing that bothers me and has been brought out in this thread, IMHO he let too many good ball players go. As I have been saying for quite a while, you have to retain your best players. But, even at that, in his defense, look what Gettleman left him when he became GM.
Once again, he is learning on the fly and I do see improvement. While others see a completely depleted roster I see guys with good potential, building blocks for a competitive team, on offense and on defense. Are we good, far from it, but with an NFL-caliber QB, we can be competitive, and isn't that the point? Were we good when we won the last 2 SBs, I don't think so, but we were competitive and we got hot when it counted the most, PLUS we had a HOF QB. When all the chips ae on the table, that is what is missing, not a new GM. 

It's worth noting, when evaluating Jerry Reese, that he stepped into a superior situation.  Most GMs inherit a team on the rocks (which is why the job is open).  Jerry Reese stepped into a team with a HOF-caliber Head Coach and Quarterback and a playoff-caliber roster.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on December 01, 2024, 10:30:55 AMI disagree. The cap was an absolute mess, so much so that he faced the Love vs Slayton decision because he couldn't afford both.

Bradbury was also too expensive.

Williams was expensive too - he got a second rounder out of that - I don't think that's too bad.

Yes, Thomas and Dex are very good.

Shame he never inherited a QB. Things might be different.

So Bradbury was too expensive but the Eagles loaded with stars and found room for him just like they did with Barkley yet they play by the same cap rules that we do. Maybe it's some other players that were too expensive who should have been cut. It's just excuse after excuse with this fanbase on why we can't retain our best players.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 01, 2024, 08:53:34 AMLen,

I read the entire article.  Art's impassioned and well-thought-out defense for Schoen and Dabell was impressive.  The problem that I see, is Art's article is looking at the issue from the wrong perspective.  After two consecutive seasons of double-digit losses (and a possible top 3 worst seasons this year) it's time for Schoen and Daboll to reapply for their jobs, so to speak.  For example, who has a more impressive coaching resume?  Daboll or Vrabrel (hint, it's Vrabel).  Go look at the thread and excellent article @DaveBrown74 posted about GM candidates.  Many of those candidates have better academic backgrounds and mentors than Joe Schoen (it's more difficult to directly measure NFL products since GMs tend not to be recycled).  It's not like Schoen's track record is so good that it should be considered an advantage against GMs without a track record.

When a team is as terrible as the NY Giants are, no stone should be left unturned.  So the question that should be asked is not, "should Schoen and Daboll be fired?" rather it should be, "Is Schoen and Daboll the best the Giants can do in terms of management?"

Good morning, Rich @MightyGiants .

Is the question, "Is Schoen and Daboll the best the Giants can do in terms of management" the right question, or maybe tweak your question a little and ask:

Are Schoen and Daboll the BEST FIT to REBUILD and LEAD the FOOTBALL GIANTS ORGANIZATION to CONSISTENTLY PERFORM among the BEST IN THE NFL?

Let's make it into a Mission Statement format so there's clarity in terms of vision and expectation.

All we need now is John Mara and Steve Tisch to concur with our Mission Statement, to ensure it aligns with the Giants', and we're all set!

But wait! You mean to tell me that the Football Giants, after 100 years in existence, do NOT have a formal Mission Statement?

So how do they know Schoen and Daboll are the best? How do they know if there's someone better out there for them?

The answer is they DON'T KNOW because they have NO MISSION STATEMENT to begin to gauge where they are today versus where they envision where they want to be tomorrow!!!

So, in the end, Mara goes by little more than a gut feeling which is subject to influence by angry fans, scathing press articles and loud cheering for the opposing team in the Sardine Can.

So much for an objective assessment!

Peace!

I was listening to Pat Traina's podcast as I was cleaning leaves yesterday.

Her argument was to retain Schoen and Daboll because a change would be disruptive, and the new team would want their guys to slow down any potential return to competitiveness

She said the only person who should be fired is Bowen because his defense is a bad fit for the players the team has.  I couldn't help but wonder- Daboll hired Wink Martindale, and things ended very badly; Daboll hired Bowen, and things ended worse (if you consider one year worse than two).  Why would be believe that Daboll's third hire would be the charm?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 08:54:56 AMI was listening to Pat Traina's podcast as I was cleaning leaves yesterday.

Her argument was to retain Schoen and Daboll because a change would be disruptive, and the new team would want their guys to slow down any potential return to competitiveness

She said the only person who should be fired is Bowen because his defense is a bad fit for the players the team has.  I couldn't help but wonder- Daboll hired Wink Martindale, and things ended very badly; Daboll hired Bowen, and things ended worse (if you consider one year worse than two).  Why would be believe that Daboll's third hire would be the charm?

I am confused by what Pat said unless it got lost in translation. A new coach/GM would be OK with not being competitive? 

Totally agree that Bowen must go if there are no other coaching/GM changes. We got stuck with him because the whole "will Wink stay or go charade" got played out over a full week and all the best available DC candidates got scooped up by other teams so Bowen was among the few remaining alternatives. This time he should be canned on black monday (or tomorrow for all I care) and start interviewing replacement right away.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 02, 2024, 03:34:16 PMI am confused by what Pat said unless it got lost in translation. A new coach/GM would be OK with not being competitive? 

Totally agree that Bowen must go if there are no other coaching/GM changes. We got stuck with him because the whole "will Wink stay or go charade" got played out over a full week and all the best available DC candidates got scooped up by other teams so Bowen was among the few remaining alternatives. This time he should be canned on black monday (or tomorrow for all I care) and start interviewing replacement right away.

Donny,

If Schoen and Daboll survive this season, one would think that people would consider their seats hot staring next season.  So between the two previous hires lasting and average of a season and half and the tenious position of your head coach boss, how attractive would the Giants DC job be?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 03:43:35 PMDonny,

If Schoen and Daboll survive this season, one would think that people would consider their seats hot staring next season.  So between the two previous hires lasting and average of a season and half and the tenious position of your head coach boss, how attractive would the Giants DC job be?

Use that NYC money advantage and make them an offer they cannot refuse. There is no salary cap for assistants.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 02, 2024, 03:52:34 PMUse that NYC money advantage and make them an offer they cannot refuse. There is no salary cap for assistants.

I once knew a man who had some used to work in the NFL officiating department.  He used to tell me that the Giants didn't pay their assistant coaches that well and that the higher cost of living made those so-so salaries less appealing. 

So, while they could do what you say, that doesn't appear to be the way Mara operates (it is the way Jerry Jones operates).

Quote from: TDToomer on December 02, 2024, 03:52:34 PMUse that NYC money advantage and make them an offer they cannot refuse. There is no salary cap for assistants.

Why NYC money advantage?  If anything, it's a massive disadvantage due to NY and NJ tax burden...