Big Blue Huddle

Do you really trust John Mara is actually going to hire the right guy?  Reese benefitted from EA's work and it was time for him to do it, he sucked. Then Mara hired Gettleman and now Schoen, who you obviously do not like.  EA was hired by Wellington.  4 times a charm here?  What GM candidate is going to want to deal with the "Giants Way" and hierarchy system?  Who is going to want to inherit this awful scouting staff and deal with Chris Mara?  Only person who would come here is someone who is looking for a GM title that knows nobody else will hire them.

What we the fans need is for Mara to humble himself and literally ask for help.

I'm pretty sure that will never happen.

If by some miracle something similar happened, you find the brightest mind in the NFL, hand them the keys and contractually stay out of the way.

Let them build the front office, the personnel department, the scouting department, a draft czar, a training staff, a medical staff, and of course a Head Coach.

Start as if you're an expansion team. With this roster and our spot in the draft we pretty much are anyway.

Edit to add: part of the equation must be able to build a winning culture based upon trust and accountability. No more making excuses for players who show their backsides. This needs to be about winning and playing your part.

Quote from: coggs on December 02, 2024, 06:38:14 PMOnly person who would come here is someone who is looking for a GM title that knows nobody else will hire them.

If that's true now, which it may be, it definitely was not true 2.5 years ago when Schoen was hired. He was unquestionably one of the most sought-after GMs in the 2022 offseason candidate list.

The same was true about Daboll at the time. He was at or very near the absolute top of the head coach candidate list at the time.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 02, 2024, 06:48:59 PMIf that's true now, which it may be, it definitely was not true 2.5 years ago when Schoen was hired. He was unquestionably one of the most sought-after GMs in the 2022 offseason candidate list.

The same was true about Daboll at the time. He was at or very near the absolute top of the head coach candidate list at the time.

So, if all the above was actually true, WHAT HAPPENED??? That's the proverbial question.

Is it some lobotomy procedure that every GM and Head Coach must undergo as part of some twisted initiation rite into "The Shop Around The Corner?" (NOTE TO SELF: look under Stewart, Jimmy; 1940; Turner Classic Movies, and plan to watch along with "You've Got Mail")

Is it a case where a first-time General Manager and Head Coach were completely in over their head from day one because of the Mara "aura" and the history and tradition of the football organization? If that be the case, why haven't either one gone to any of the Tisch family for guidance? Is it really because John Mara pigeon-holed them into operating in such a constrained method that their hands are completely tied, or because they walk on egg-shells for fear of upsetting the boss?

The three Strategic Imperatives failed miserably this season and there has to be accountability from the top-down. It starts with Mara/Tisch and works its way down to the VP of each organization directly reporting to the two owners as well as the board.

As bad as it has been, and it has been bad, I'm not totally convinced a house cleaning is the right thing to do at this moment in time. I'm open to the possibility that it is; however, I'm just not 100% sold on it right now. There's too much Mara/Tisch and other organizations involved in the mess right now which must be accounted for and issues identified and fixed.

Mara and Tisch have to ensure that issues crossing horizontally between the VPs of the major organizations have the ability to work together to resolve those issues. Given the medical, health, wellness issues in Ronnie Barnes' organization, we have no visibility into whether Schoen is working directly with Barnes to prioritize and resolve those issues. At the owner level, I would be paying close attention to those things to ensure they are being identified, communicated and action plans are in place and in work with ECDs (estimated completion dates).

But if the Giants are "really" being run like a 1940s fictional bookstore in NYC, there's a good bet the answer is a resounding "no." If that be the case, I'd clean out the ownership before I'd clean out the GM, Head Coach and their staff. Wishful thinking, indeed!

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on December 02, 2024, 07:32:19 PMSo, if all the above was actually true, WHAT HAPPENED??? That's the proverbial question.

Is it some lobotomy procedure that every GM and Head Coach must undergo as part of some twisted initiation rite into "The Shop Around The Corner?" (NOTE TO SELF: look under Stewart, Jimmy; 1940; Turner Classic Movies, and plan to watch along with "You've Got Mail")

Is it a case where a first-time General Manager and Head Coach were completely in over their head from day one because of the Mara "aura" and the history and tradition of the football organization? If that be the case, why haven't either one gone to any of the Tisch family for guidance? Is it really because John Mara pigeon-holed them into operating in such a constrained method that their hands are completely tied, or because they walk on egg-shells for fear of upsetting the boss?

The three Strategic Imperatives failed miserably this season and there has to be accountability from the top-down. It starts with Mara/Tisch and works its way down to the VP of each organization directly reporting to the two owners as well as the board.

As bad as it has been, and it has been bad, I'm not totally convinced a house cleaning is the right thing to do at this moment in time. I'm open to the possibility that it is; however, I'm just not 100% sold on it right now. There's too much Mara/Tisch and other organizations involved in the mess right now which must be accounted for and issues identified and fixed.

Mara and Tisch have to ensure that issues crossing horizontally between the VPs of the major organizations have the ability to work together to resolve those issues. Given the medical, health, wellness issues in Ronnie Barnes' organization, we have no visibility into whether Schoen is working directly with Barnes to prioritize and resolve those issues. At the owner level, I would be paying close attention to those things to ensure they are being identified, communicated and action plans are in place and in work with ECDs (estimated completion dates).

But if the Giants are "really" being run like a 1940s fictional bookstore in NYC, there's a good bet the answer is a resounding "no." If that be the case, I'd clean out the ownership before I'd clean out the GM, Head Coach and their staff. Wishful thinking, indeed!

Peace!

In the past ten years the Giants' value has increased from $2.1 Billion to $7.3 Billion. The Tisch side are doing the job that they bought into, more of the business end. 3.5X increase in value while arguably being the worst team in the league the last few years. That$ not lo$ing. Historically going back to 1965 they are about 60 games under .500 during regular season play. The one constant, a Mara. Was Gettleman any different than Robustelli?

Quote from: files58 on December 02, 2024, 07:50:30 PMIn the past ten years the Giants' value has increased from $2.1 Billion to $7.3 Billion. The Tisch side are doing the job that they bought into, more of the business end. 3.5X increase in value while arguably being the worst team in the league the last few years. That$ not lo$ing. Historically going back to 1965 they are about 60 games under .500 during regular season play. The one constant, a Mara. Was Gettleman any different than Robustelli?

If I forget to bring that up, I always know you've got my back so thank you for that!

Fourth (4th) Richest in the NFL

Conflict of interest of product quality put on the field: yes sir!

What did I say in my last post ...

"I'd clean out the ownership before I'd clean out the GM, Head Coach and their staff. Wishful thinking, indeed!"

Peace!

Quote from: coggs on December 02, 2024, 06:38:14 PMDo you really trust John Mara is actually going to hire the right guy?  Reese benefitted from EA's work and it was time for him to do it, he sucked. Then Mara hired Gettleman and now Schoen, who you obviously do not like.  EA was hired by Wellington.  4 times a charm here?  What GM candidate is going to want to deal with the "Giants Way" and hierarchy system?  Who is going to want to inherit this awful scouting staff and deal with Chris Mara?  Only person who would come here is someone who is looking for a GM title that knows nobody else will hire them.

I wanted an embarrassing loss on Thanksgiving.   My hope was that Mara would do some soul searching.   Unfortunately, they kept the score close and with injuries, Mara will simply conduct business as usual.

Quote from: coggs on December 02, 2024, 06:38:14 PMEA was hired by Wellington. 

Good topic. Ernie Accorsi originally hired George Young as his assistant. Wellington promoted him. Both Young and Accorsi worked mostly without Mara interference. Wellington pushed Dan Reeves on Young and Tom Coughlin with John on Accorsi, but otherwise, they were able to run the team on their own. John started interfering when he fired the coaching staff piece by piece, starting with Kevin Gilbride.

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on December 02, 2024, 06:47:05 PMWhat we the fans need is for Mara to humble himself and literally ask for help.

I'm pretty sure that will never happen.

If by some miracle something similar happened, you find the brightest mind in the NFL, hand them the keys and contractually stay out of the way.

Let them build the front office, the personnel department, the scouting department, a draft czar, a training staff, a medical staff, and of course a Head Coach.

Start as if you're an expansion team. With this roster and our spot in the draft we pretty much are anyway.

Edit to add: part of the equation must be able to build a winning culture based upon trust and accountability. No more making excuses for players who show their backsides. This needs to be about winning and playing your part.

No doubt there're problems at every level.

Quote from: files58 on December 02, 2024, 07:50:30 PMIn the past ten years the Giants' value has increased from $2.1 Billion to $7.3 Billion. The Tisch side are doing the job that they bought into, more of the business end. 3.5X increase in value while arguably being the worst team in the league the last few years. That$ not lo$ing. Historically going back to 1965 they are about 60 games under .500 during regular season play. The one constant, a Mara. Was Gettleman any different than Robustelli?

The value of the team has more to do with being part of the NFL and the NYC representitive. NFL teams share television revenues and gate reciepts. Robustelli was more like Wellington's assistant (the root of the Mara fued) and Gettleman got too much input from John.


Ronnie Barnes at 72, is another Doc Sweeney. John, like his Uncle Jack and cousin Tim, knows nothing about building a team. Jack and Tim knew they weren't qualified and stayed out of team decisions. Wellington never recognized that the game and times had passed him by and had to be forced from team decisions. Wellington, and now John, could never admit they didn't much more than most fans.

They seem to draft for need every year and not value today. In 1981, they needed a running back more than a linebacker. George Young stayed put and got LT. If the Wellington was running the draft, he probably would've swapped picks with the Saints and sent them the next year's 1st to draft George Rogers. I know that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it shows the difference between drafting a player to fill a need or the best player available.

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on December 02, 2024, 06:47:05 PMWhat we the fans need is for Mara to humble himself and literally ask for help.

Andrew,

Mara did ask for help in 2018. He asked Ernie Accorsi of (trade for Eli and make Archie happy fame) for help in finding him a worthy successor to Jerry Reese who had run out of his earlier Super Bowl winning success. The result was Dave Gettleman.

Some might view the choice of Gettleman as little more than a sham which allowed Mara to return to the family's habit of nepo-cronyism in the pre-George Young era. And speaking of eras, Young's was a long one consisting of his 19 years, Accorsi, 9 and Reese's 10 during which the Giants made 15 Playoff appearances, won 4 of 5 Super Bowls, and had an overall winning record.

Contrast that with Gettleman's 4 years of failure which helped create the "Jones trap" which has plagued the decidedly non-crony Schoen/Daboll in what so far has been admittedly two lousy seasons with higher hopes and brighter prospects for the future.

Inappropriate and way too soon to talk of house cleaning.

Cheers!

Painter,

All excellent points.

Here's one more suggestion.

How about if Mara asked for the help of someone not in his dusty old rolodesk?

Do a bit of research and find a true football mind.

Someone in Baltimore, Green Bay, Detroit, Minnesota, or even Pittsburgh.


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Same as for coaches, just because they were a terror in one place doesn't mean that lightening will strike twice in the next spot. Some GMs are good and some are lucky, you get the r right QB and all of a sudden you are a genius, draft the wrong one and you are a bum. Does anyone have the foresight to know that? Would Acorsi have been good if he hadn't made that trade for Eli?
Schoen had all the boxes checked when he was hired but he was burdened with a pee-wee league QB. How do we know he wasn't told that Jones would be gone in a couple of years? We didn't pick up his option. Then Mara kind of insisted that we retain Jones because, after all, he won a playoff game. Maybe this went against the plan Schoen had when he was hired. We don't know and we will probably never know.
What we do know is we were all happy when Schoen was hired. I really don't remember anyone being negative about him. He was the up-and-coming guy, new blood, no Giants affiliation. So now some label him a bum because he couldn't do anything the first couple of years because of the cap and then he was stuck with Jones. Now we are free of Jones and free of that awful cap problem, so let's give the guy a chance and see if he really can do the job he was hired to do. He deserves another year, at the minimum.

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on December 03, 2024, 01:08:40 PMPainter,

All excellent points.

Here's one more suggestion.

How about if Mara asked for the help of someone not in his dusty old rolodesk?

Do a bit of research and find a true football mind.

Someone in Baltimore, Green Bay, Detroit, Minnesota, or even Pittsburgh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Andrew,

Are you suggesting that Schoen should be replaced before he has a chance to overcome the Gettleman Curse? Moreover, I don't know who or what is meant by "a true football mind" which I assume would not include Young, Accorsi or Reese. Or if otherwise, it would be earlier in their true football careers as all such seem to start well and fade with time. And while that seems to have applied to just about anyone you might name or not name, time is not something you are willing to allow for Joe Schoen?

Or am I misreading your position and/or what some might see as magic thinking? And you want Mara to do what?  Uncle John to try to convince Joaquin Phoenix to let Rooney Mara run the team? Yes, of course, that would be way too Nepo. I'm just Jokering to try to lighten the mood around here.

Cheers!

Painter,

I'm not ready to give up on Schoen. But I wonder where John is on the subject.

I suppose that if he were to jump into another reset that would prove that he doesn't have the foresight to do something completely different this time.

In the end, all I really mean is that I'd like to see him pull way back and allow football people to run this franchise.


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I don't know if they should or would change the entire regime right now but I definitely think there are plenty of quality people that would jump at the chance for the job. 

Taxes and cost of living and ownership and a bad organization, really don't mean anything for a position that only 32 exist and very few of those become available annually. 

There are plenty of qualified good candidates that would jump at the chance to prove they are the one that change the fortunes of a once proud franchise and bring it back to prosperity. 

Its our negative fan thinking causing some form of tunnel vision.  The people that would be interviewing for a GM position have likely toiled in virtual anonymity for years to even get the chance to be considered for that type of role.  Guys that have sat in a room with a bunch of other men and had to convince them to draft one guy or another and be very assertive and confident about it. 
And we think they are going to cower when an opportunity finally presents itself and worry they cannot fix it?

Are they going to think, "if I wait a couple of years I may get a GM job in a state with no income tax".....Really?  In two years they could be looking for another anonymous toiling job if their current boss is shown the door. 

Quote from: Painter on December 03, 2024, 02:53:08 PM
Andrew,

Are you suggesting that Schoen should be replaced before he has a chance to overcome the Gettleman Curse? Moreover, I don't know who or what is meant by "a true football mind" which I assume would not include Young, Accorsi or Reese. Or if otherwise, it would be earlier in their true football careers as all such seem to start well and fade with time. And while that seems to have applied to just about anyone you might name or not name, time is not something you are willing to allow for Joe Schoen?

Or am I misreading your position and/or what some might see as magic thinking? And you want Mara to do what?  Uncle John to try to convince Joaquin Phoenix to let Rooney Mara run the team? Yes, of course, that would be way too Nepo. I'm just Jokering to try to lighten the mood around here.

Cheers!

 

Sir Painter, perhaps if he invoked the spirit of River Phoenix, instead, he could justify the "Nepo-Neurotic" idea as sent from "another dimension."

 

Come to think of it, even John should know better that selling his soul to the    means payback in one form or another.

Ah, I get it now. That explains everything!

John paying up for selling his soul for those last two legendary Super Bowl victories:

 

Does anyone know when his sentence expires?

(I know, I need to take a long walk in the desert. It's on the calendar.)

Peace!