Big Blue Huddle

I've been mulling over what I'm going to say to Mara when I return my renewal request for the'25 season.  I think he solved my dilemma.

"Now that the season is over, I felt it necessary to make this statement.  After 63 years I will discontinue my role as a season ticket holder with this organization.  As disappointing as the results of this, and far too many seasons in the recent past, have been, I am no longer confident in whatever process you have in place. That process is one that cannot identify talent either for the front office, the sidelines or on the field. It is clearly flawed but it appears to me you are unwilling to undertake the often hard but necessary top to bottom evaluation of your ENTIRE organization.

I certainly hope that the team's fortunes change soon but I will no longer spend my good money supporting this wish"

Sincerely

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 06, 2025, 09:50:19 AMIf that's truly the case, I can see why someone with Lombardi's GM record would want the job.

I think the sheer volume of staffing turnover indicates otherwise.

Mike never said, nor did he indicate, that he "wanted the job."  Mike's critics made that claim.  When a team has performed as badly as the Giants have over the past decade, you would expect more turnover than we have witnessed.  Despite massive injuries every year, Ronnie Barnes is still senior VP of all things medical.    Pat Hanlon still does PR, even though he is bad at it.

The reality is Schoen was the one that should have been fired.  Only Schoen is a nice guy, and Mara likes hanging out with him, some we all have to suffer more bad teams

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2025, 09:56:15 AMMike never said, nor did he indicate, that he "wanted the job."  Mike's critics made that claim.  When a team has performed as badly as the Giants have over the past decade, you would expect more turnover than we have witnessed.  Despite massive injuries every year, Ronnie Barnes is still senior VP of all things medical.    Pat Hanlon still does PR, even though he is bad at it.

The reality is Schoen was the one that should have been fired.  Only Schoen is a nice guy, and Mara likes hanging out with him, some we all have to suffer more bad teams

Exactly. The Giants organization is a meat grinder for middle management (i.e., coordinators). It's the executives who are untouchable, with some of them actually failing up.

They are both back, so what next?

The problem for Schoen is that this is not the best year to be hunting a QB. His bare minimum starting point has to be having a viable bridge starter going into the draft.

There will be options in free agency including Fields and/or Wilson x2, Dalton etc.

There might be options via trade ranging from the unrealistic/aggressive (JJ McCarthy) to unsung but useful (Jake Browning) to reclamation projects/forgotten men (Will Levis, Hendon Hooker) to have to restructure and take a huge pay cut (Cousins).

However they do it they have to find someone who can potentially hold the fort and retain one of Lock or De Vito so they do not have to force it in the draft.

As for Daboll, he surely has to let Kafka and Bowen go. IMO at OC he needs a veteran who can be assistant HC and help him more broadly (Reich? Pederson?). At DC he needs someone more aggressive and with a point to prove (Pierce? Leonhard from Denver?).

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2025, 08:49:56 AMI want to hear from Mara who is he holding ACCOUNTABLE for one of the worst seasons in team history.  This is why the team is bad-  Mara holds no one accountable for doing a good job.

Accountable for what, precisely, Rich @MightyGiants ? Pulling your leg on purpose, I hope you understand.

What were the Giants' objectives for 2024? Does anyone know? Maybe the bar was set so low that they actually met them. Who knows?

But this is officially JS and BD's show now and, going forward, they are not cleaning up anything from the previous regime. This is their baby and they're now 100% fully accountable to it.

They had a very good 2024 draft to show for this season past with players who all contributed, some surprised and one who is a bonafide star in the making.

If they nail the 2025 draft, improve the talent quality AND depth, they will have no place else to go but upward.

They failed miserably in the three Strategic Imperatives (SI's) critical for success in 2024. These will continue to haunt them until they are effectively addressed and become Pillars of Excellence in their organization. There likely needs one or two additional SI's to target other opportunities to accelerate their climb out of the hole they have found themselves in.

Make no mistake, this organization was a bleeding mass upon Gettleman's and Judge's departure. The State of the Union was further blinded by the moon and stars aligning just right in 2022.

The reality has come to bear on this team the last two years as the difficult, but necessary decisions have finally been made. Players who will not be part of the future of this club are now gone. The salary cap is in a better place now.

Going forward, decision making on investment of big name players, contracts and all are going to be magnified far greater than ever before. This is why it is critical for the organization to have a sound "plan" that can be sanitized for communication to the public and still have meaning to build trust that is sorely lacking. This team has rarely been effective in this endeavor and, perhaps, this is by choice. But it has reached a point, again, where letters from fans, such as Giantsgirl, need to hit this ownership right between the eyes, and cause them to pause and reflect before they execute on their next decision-making box in the flowchart.

I think that's really all we want, in addition to wanting them to employ sound decision-making principles, which align with their strategic intent to improve not only their product on the field, but their organization to become a benchmark for the rest of the NFL to follow.

They have completed this decision so, for better or worse, it is now time for them to roll up their sleeves, evaluate their 2024 performance, and establish goals for 2025. For us fans and, in particular, those who invest in the club by renewing their season tickets, their voices, I pray, will be heard from this leadership group and priorities be set that ensure they are acted upon.

"Even the longest of journies begins with a first step." (Confucious - narrated by Pat Summerall in the 1986 New York Giants Highlight Video, "Giants Among Men")

Peace!

Quote from: londonblue on January 06, 2025, 10:06:35 AMThey are both back, so what next?

The problem for Schoen is that this is not the best year to be hunting a QB. His bare minimum starting point has to be having a viable bridge starter going into the draft.

There will be options in free agency including Fields and/or Wilson x2, Dalton etc.

There might be options via trade ranging from the unrealistic/aggressive (JJ McCarthy) to unsung but useful (Jake Browning) to reclamation projects/forgotten men (Will Levis, Hendon Hooker) to have to restructure and take a huge pay cut (Cousins).

However they do it they have to find someone who can potentially hold the fort and retain one of Lock or De Vito so they do not have to force it in the draft.

As for Daboll, he surely has to let Kafka and Bowen go. IMO at OC he needs a veteran who can be assistant HC and help him more broadly (Reich? Pederson?). At DC he needs someone more aggressive and with a point to prove (Pierce? Leonhard from Denver?).

The team's options for OC and DC will be limited.  The best candidates will want more stability, opportunity, and job security that being the Daboll's 3rd DC or 2nd OC has to offer.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2025, 08:49:56 AMI want to hear from Mara who is he holding ACCOUNTABLE for one of the worst seasons in team history.  This is why the team is bad-  Mara holds no one accountable for doing a good job.

He didn't allow them to do their jobs.

Quote from: T200 on January 06, 2025, 10:15:07 AMHe didn't allow them to do their jobs.

He did allow them to do their job, as witnessed by DJ's 5th year option decline and Barkley's departure (an example from the start of their tenure and the last season of their tenure)

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2025, 10:20:09 AMHe did allow them to do their job, as witnessed by DJ's 5th year option decline and Barkley's departure (an example from the start of their tenure and the last season of their tenure)

We're just gonna end up going round and round.

You know where I stand. I haven't wavered a single bit.

I know you don't like the decision to bring them back but here they are. Hopefully they can turn this ship around without Mara's meddling.

Quote from: T200 on January 06, 2025, 10:22:55 AMWe're just gonna end up going round and round.

You know where I stand. I haven't wavered a single bit.

I know you don't like the decision to bring them back but here they are. Hopefully they can turn this ship around without Mara's meddling.

I don't want to hear, "Well, they deserve to draft their own QB," because that is a faulty assumption in year 4.  What you want to see is improvement.  Did the team play smart, mistake-free (for the most part) football?  Did the team always play hard?  Is the roster at least middle of the pack after 3 seasons with tons of high draft capital to spend (or even not near the bottom in talent)?

There is literally no objective measure that suggests Schoen and Daboll have set this team on the correct course.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 06, 2025, 10:25:20 AMI don't want to hear, "Well, they deserve to draft their own QB," because that is a faulty assumption in year 4.  What you want to see is improvement.  Did the team play smart, mistake-free (for the most part) football?  Did the team always play hard?  Is the roster at least middle of the pack after 3 seasons with tons of high draft capital to spend (or even not near the bottom in talent)?

There is literally no objective measure that suggests Schoen and Daboll have set this team on the correct course.

Rich,

You make legit points. I'm not denying any of them. What I am saying is that there are other aspects that don't involve numbers and statistics but also have an adverse affect on the team. That's what I expect and suspect will be the biggest change this offseason.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 06, 2025, 08:58:20 AMWhilst we disagree on a lot, they need to sort out the trainer side of things. To be decimated by injury year on year is appalling.

Get the healthy players on the field, get competent QB play and we will see what happens.

The leash will be short for both, so they need to knock this out the park from now until the start of the season. They then have to put a winning product on the field.

I believe they can do it and I'm looking forward to the off-season. It's not the case for everyone, I get that, they've made decisions I've vehemently disagreed with in the past, but for now - I truly believe this is the correct course of action.

You make a great case for one of the Strategic Initiatives they collectively failed at in season 2024 (NOTE: and 2023, 2022, 2021, and so on, for that matter).

Teams get decimated with injuries despite every preventive and or corrective measure implemented. Dallas, for example, was snakebitten this season worse than any time I can remember in a long while.

But even so, teams still have to put in place programs to build and sustain their athletes throughout their careers and, also, mitigate risks, in good faith, that could impact them later in their post-football lives.

We've discussed this subject many times here and there are plenty of opportunities the Giants organization can capture to improve their medical organization's overall performance under Ronnie Barnes (NOTE: regardless whether one thinks he should still be employed with the Giants or not). It is not limited to just his organization. Data analytics (Next generation data), video (Audio/Video/Modeling and Simulation) should all be integrated in analyzing a player's physical characteristics, key performance indicators, mechanical and biological/chemical makeup to develop a risk profile and development/injury mitigation plan for each player (NOTE: comparable to what they Rams do for their players which has been benchmarked in the past).

Medical/Health/Physical-Mental-Emotional Wellness and Development all have a place in today's NFL.

This must be developed into an organizational Pillar of Strength. Back in the mid to late 1980s, with the hiring of Johnny Parker and his staff, it became a cornerstone of the Giants' competitive advantage as a smash-mouth football team. Even if Daboll's offense doesn't mimick Parcells' of the 80s, a strong and tough team is something he still needs for his offense, and most definitely hos defense, to be successful.

Peace!

We don't know if Jones was Mara or Schoen or a combo but we do know he was absolutely terrible and he did nothing to help the organization that's a fact. We move on.

I'd like to see Daboll give up the play calling as was the case in year 1.

We also need to know what happened with Hyatt.

We need to closely look at Bowen philosophy and the tackling issues.

We need to address the medical staff which sucks.

We need to address Ezudo and Neal

We need to sign that kick returner they found.

Lastly, the fact they have one year to show a turnaround is fine because look at teams that have progressed with rookie QBs like Washington. It can and should be able to happen here. Joe Torre was considered a disaster hire and look how that panned out. I'll hope Daboll turns it around albeit I am not happy with his play calling and his control of the fundamentals and all the procedure penalties and not being prepared to start season and out of bye weeks.

A lot to ponder indeed.

Rich, not many of us disagree with your analysis but it is moot. They are back. Period. What matters now is what happens next.

A day or two to vent on here is not unreasonable but the sooner we can collectively move on from wallowing in the historic mess of our 100th season and re litigating the decision that Mara has just made the better it will be both for everyone's mental health and the quality, relevance and insight in the discussions moving forwards.

Personally I expected Mara's decision but cannot imagine it was easy for him. He will understand that many fans have already and will continue to vote their disapproval with their wallets. He and Tisch carry a huge financial risk if his faith is misplaced and the decline continues unabated. He has more to lose than anyone else if he has got this wrong again.

I share your doubts but our risk is another painful season or two. Mara-Tisch risk wiping hundreds of millions off franchise value if the dissatisfaction becomes open fan rebellion. You have to hope that will create more urgency, and accountability, behind the scenes.