Everything COVID-19

[Bob In PA]

Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.

It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).

I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point.  They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.

It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).

I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point.  They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.

Bob

Bob,

Are you suggesting that the science on masks helping to prevent the spread of Covid is not proven science at this point?

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

Are you suggesting that the science on masks helping to prevent the spread of Covid is not proven science at this point?

Rich: No, but now that you mention masks, studies of the use of masks to protect against the FLU VIRUSES have almost uniformly established that masks play no significant role in preventing spread of the flu.

This fact may be a non sequitur as applied to a novel coronavirus, but it is one of the chief reasons, IMO, why Fauci first stated (generally speaking) that masks were not necessary.

Why he later changed his mind and decided to start recommending the wearing of masks is not clear to me.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: No, but now that you mention masks, studies of the use of masks to protect against the FLU VIRUSES have almost uniformly established that masks play no significant role in preventing spread of the flu.

This fact may be a non sequitur as applied to a novel coronavirus, but it is one of the chief reasons, IMO, why Fauci first stated (generally speaking) that masks were not necessary.

Why he later changed his mind and decided to start recommending the wearing of masks is not clear to me.

Bob

Bob,

As someone who knows exactly what went down in reference with masks and Covid, let me share this:


1)  Once it was established that Covid could be transferred from person to person it was believed that the transmission was from airborne droplets (most being generated by coughing and sneezing)

2)  It was originally believed (not certain but believed) that people without symptoms were not contagious

3)  When the outbreak started there was a massive (and deadly) shortage of N95 masks (and to a lesser extend surgical masks)

4)  Because of points 2 and 3 (they thought people would buy up and hoard the limited supplies of masks) it was advised that only symptomatic people were masks and that those who were not sick shouldn't wear a mask.  The idea was for sick people to stay home or wear a mask and everyone else would be safe.

5)  Since then we learned that asymptomatic people could spread the disease.  This was a game-changer and it resulted in rethinking the whole mask-wearing strategy

6)  Surgical masks and even cloth face coverings (when worn by the infected) have been proven effective in lowering the spread of the disease.   

7)  Surgical masks and even cloth face coverings will provide some protection for the non-infected

8)  I would advise getting KN-95 masks if you want to protect yourself (ideally the ones on the FDA's emergency use list) as this will give much better protection than a surgical mask

9) speaking of surgical masks, they are like the kid that doesn't test well.   Surgical masks rarely test well but when they do studies of people wearing them, they seem to provide better protection than the tests indicate.

10)  N-95 (when properly fit tested) is the gold standard and this is the mask that is effective in stopping any airborne infection I am aware of.  They are very difficult for professionals to obtain especially early on

11)  As early as February my agency (including me) was going to have to drive people who were potentially exposed (having come from Wuhan) but were asymptomatic.   Even with the guidance, we were going to have them wear a surgical mask and the driver was going to wear an N-95 and googles.   We knew that was above the standard at the time but as public health professionals, we knew there was a good chance that the standards of protection could increase as we learned more about the disease.


No where in the Covid Mask history did we consider the flu and how masks are in terms of protection.   The reason why was there were enough other Corona viruses out there to use for comparisons.

[LennG]

Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.

It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).

I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point.  They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.

Bob

No, we don't Bob, but we are still intelligent adults and it has been beaten into our minds for the past two months, maybe more, that wearing a mask WILL help prevent one from catching the virus. There was this dude who basically shouted at the top of his lungs, he ain't wearing a F**king mask, no way, no how. Sure we can't say as 100% certain that if he had worn a mask he would still be alive, but it sure looks like a pretty good possibility.
The point was also, that here was a 37-year-old guy, supposedly in good to perfect health, got sick, and died.
You CAN be young, healthy and still die from this virus, so why take chances because some refuse to wear that 'F**king mask.

Do you think if Trump had worn a mask right from when most experts felt that wearing one would help keep you and others safe, we would have all this 'I'm not wearing one" stuff that we see on the news basically every day? It has become a political statement, why--because Trump made people believe the 'his' people don't need masks.

[MightyGiants]

No, we don't Bob, but we are still intelligent adults and it has been beaten into our minds for the past two months, maybe more, that wearing a mask WILL help prevent one from catching the virus. There was this dude who basically shouted at the top of his lungs, he ain't wearing a F**king mask, no way, no how. Sure we can't say as 100% certain that if he had worn a mask he would still be alive, but it sure looks like a pretty good possibility.
The point was also, that here was a 37-year-old guy, supposedly in good to perfect health, got sick, and died.
You CAN be young, healthy and still die from this virus, so why take chances because some refuse to wear that 'F**king mask.

Do you think if Trump had worn a mask right from when most experts felt that wearing one would help keep you and others safe, we would have all this 'I'm not wearing one" stuff that we see on the news basically every day? It has become a political statement, why--because Trump made people believe the 'his' people don't need masks.

Bob, loves to say you shouldn't listen to all the (horrible) things Trump says (horrible is my word) and just look at what he does.   Only when you are the President of the United States, what you say and the example you set matters, it matters greatly.   I think it's safe to say Donald Trump personally is responsible for needless Covid deaths (how many, I have no clue) because for months he discouraged the wearing of masks (even going so far as trying to make fun of Biden for wearing one) by what he said and the example he set.   If Trump had done the right thing, not only would lives have been saved, but maybe we wouldn't have these crazy anti-maskers who attack people (verbally or physically) when they are asked to put on a mask.

[coggs]

Lenn: Sorry to hear about that, but there is no way to prove that he contracted the disease as a result of not wearing a mask.

It is also possible he engaged in other risky behavior (more risky than wearing a mask) which may have caused his death (in whole or in part).

I don't put much weight in isolated (anecdotal) examples cited to prove a much broader point.  They just aren't convincing, no matter which "side" posts them.

Bob

Prove? Of course not, but it is safe to say if he DID wear the mask the chances of him getting sick would have been much less.  Could have still got sick? Of course, but when you are as vocal and as condescending on social media as this guy was, it is hard for people to feel any sympathy.  Young guy, feel bad for his family and just hope he didn't have any young kids.

[Bob In PA]

I keep hearing about how Trump doesn't have a plan.  One quarter of all covid deaths in the United States are in the state of New York.  Great plan!      Bob

[T200]

Please post all COVID-19-related items here.

[Bob In PA]

Please post all COVID-19-related items here.

Tim: Oops. Sorry about that. Tired eyes!  Bob

[T200]

Tim: Oops. Sorry about that. Tired eyes!  Bob

No worries, Bob. One team - one fight! 

[MightyGiants]

I keep hearing about how Trump doesn't have a plan.  One quarter of all covid deaths in the United States are in the state of New York.  Great plan!      Bob

NY went from one worst to first, so yeah there was a "plan", one that was a hell of a lot better than what Trump and the GOP has been putting out there

[Bob In PA]

NY went from one worst to first, so yeah there was a "plan", one that was a hell of a lot better than what Trump and the GOP has been putting out there

Rich: Damn right they did.  New York now has 1/4 of all covid deaths in the United States.  Bob

[Bob In PA]

By the way, New York is roughly 6 percent of the total population of the United States.

[Bob In PA]

Prove? Of course not, but it is safe to say if he DID wear the mask the chances of him getting sick would have been much less.  Could have still got sick? Of course, but when you are as vocal and as condescending on social media as this guy was, it is hard for people to feel any sympathy.  Young guy, feel bad for his family and just hope he didn't have any young kids.

coggs: Be careful to distinguish between the effectiveness of a mask to prevent you from getting sick -vs- effectiveness of the mask to prevent you from transmitting the disease.

I know it's a nit-pick but ALL OF SCIENCE IS nitpicking (meaning that in a good way).  The wording can make a big difference in certain contexts (like when reading the scientific studies).

The science right now says generally that masks are unlikely to help avoid viruses if you don't wash dirty hands AND maintain social distancing AND refrain from touching your face with contaminated hands.

Bob