Trying to Balance 1 - Climate change real but not an emergency

[Bob In PA]

Now their disdain for science is literally endangering the entire planet as they gleefully accelerate the destructive climate change we are witnessing

Rich: You are criticizing and denigrating a book you haven't read. Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: You are criticizing and denigrating a book you haven't read. Bob

I am denigrating yours and the right's pushing of confirmation bias as a way of life.  I am SUPPORTING using REAL EXPERTS.  I am denigrating yours and the right's practice of measuring expertise based on how much a person agrees with your position or what you want to hear.    It's funny, in the world of football you fully appreciate the concept of expertise and hearing contrary opinions.   Once politics is involved all of that flies out the window.   If politics started entering our discussions you would be pushing the views of Mad Dog (if they agreed with your opinions) and telling us to ignore the opinions of former GMs like Bill Polian or Mike Lombardi.   

As I have said before intellectual consistency is very important.  I maintain my views on expertise when I am looking at football or if I am looking at climate change.   It doesn't change for me for political expediency

[Bob In PA]

I am denigrating yours and the right's pushing of confirmation bias as a way of life.  I am SUPPORTING using REAL EXPERTS.  I am denigrating yours and the right's practice of measuring expertise based on how much a person agrees with your position or what you want to hear.    It's funny, in the world of football you fully appreciate the concept of expertise and hearing contrary opinions.   Once politics is involved all of that flies out the window.   If politics started entering our discussions you would be pushing the views of Mad Dog (if they agreed with your opinions) and telling us to ignore the opinions of former GMs like Bill Polian or Mike Lombardi.   

As I have said before intellectual consistency is very important.  I maintain my views on expertise when I am looking at football or if I am looking at climate change.   It doesn't change for me for political expediency

Rich: There is nothing intellectual (or scientific) about criticizing a book you haven't read.  Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: There is nothing intellectual (or scientific) about criticizing a book you haven't read.  Bob

When a book is written by an unqualified person on a scientific topic and promoted by the right-wing propaganda machine as being written by "one of America's most distinguished scientist" the issue isn't the book it's the propaganda and the dangerous use of confirmation bias.


I read your and JBG's opinions on climate change.  You two are literally as qualified to espouse your views on climate change as Steven Koonin's (well that isn't completely accurate as I would expect someone with a good science background to better understand a scientific topic than a layperson)

I said this about diversity of opinion on the main forum and it's just as relevant when talking about climate change, it's not the diversity of opinion that matters, it's the QUALITY of opinions that matter.  To read this guy's book just because it promotes your political views on climate change is counterproductive to proper understanding of a complex issue.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

The problem with "experts" is that every scientist thinks they are one. Never met a Phd holding scientist that thought of himself as anything other than an "expert". There is actually no truthful definition for the term "expert", as every individual has elements of expertise, but it flies in the face of other "experts" with differing views producing different results. As in theology, politics, and science - it is easy to find two experts who passionately disagree on issues and are 180 degrees of each other on what is a "fact" and what is not. As Arthur C. Clarke once said, "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." In short: science is not and has never been settled - apart from the fundamental laws (gravity, thermodynamics, etc) and is a journey in process with an incredible number of ideas and viewpoints that are not necessarily (or even close) to the same. Knowledge is a building block still being built and it's built on the foundation of all previous thinkers over centuries. It's why we no longer bleed out people at the local barber shop to control high blood pressure and why we no longer drink raw milk. Hence, think for yourself and listen to all sides and make up your own mind who or what you want to believe

Albert Einstein stated, "We should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems, and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have the right to express themselves on questions affecting society."

One of the problems that concerns me with the whole issue of climate change, is that almost every laboratory that has degreed and respected (by peers) scientists are financed without producing something that can be subsequently sold for profit and thereby, cannot sustain themselves in a capitalistic society unless they choose a path like developing pharmaceuticals or high tech inventions. Whether on a college campus or in the many private laboratories, labs whose sole purpose is to "discover" and argue ideas have to be funded by some entity other than rely on self-sustaining profit. Nearly every penny that supports and sustains these scientists come from the government run by politicians. Scientists know that providing new evidence that does not support a political cause (thus, politicians seeking power) could be kissing their careers goodbye or even losing all funding to keep their lab afloat. Even college campus labs get government funding whether indirectly or directly that is tied heavily to scientific research. Every scientist knows who is buttering their bread and whose hands hold their future and it's good not to rock the boat of those who hold the purse strings. In fact, it is extremely advantageous to give credence to the politicians' desired results.

Anyone who thinks "climate change" is purely scientific without extreme political undertones does not understand the financial circle of life for scientists. Sad, but true. Little different now than half a millennia ago when the Pope arrested and imprisoned Galileo for inventing the telescope and proclaiming that earth is not the center of the universe. It pays to keep a finger in the political winds if you are a scientist

[MightyGiants]

The problem with "experts" is that every scientist thinks they are one. Never met a Phd holding scientist that thought of himself as anything other than an "expert". There is actually no truthful definition for the term "expert", as every individual has elements of expertise, but it flies in the face of other "experts" with differing views producing different results.

It doesn't matter what you or a scientist thinks or even I think.  The courts have long-established standards for what constitutes an expert

The majority of states follow the Daubert standard for expert witnesses.  In conjunction with Rule 702, only experts who are

[Jolly Blue Giant]

A couple of articles that show phenomena that contributes to climate change...and of course, to help us feel even more helpless...LOL

https://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-is-tracking-the-mysterious-evolving-anomaly-in-earth-s-magnetic-field

https://scitechdaily.com/space-hurricane-observed-over-the-earth-for-the-first-time/

The sun is a fascinating entity
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/what-will-solar-cycle-25-look-like-sun-prediction-model

[Bob In PA]

When a book is written by an unqualified person on a scientific topic and promoted by the right-wing propaganda machine as being written by "one of America's most distinguished scientist" the issue isn't the book it's the propaganda and the dangerous use of confirmation bias.

Rich: To date, the only person in the world who has "pronounced" the author unqualified is you. IMO, you are not qualified to do so. Find me an exprert who says the author is unqualified... then get back to me.

I read your and JBG's opinions on climate change.  You two are literally as qualified to espouse your views on climate change as Steven Koonin's (well that isn't completely accurate as I would expect someone with a good science background to better understand a scientific topic than a layperson)

Rich: I disagree.  The difference between us and the expert is that the expert did a multi-year study of all of the scientific literature.  We have not done so.

I said this about diversity of opinion on the main forum and it's just as relevant when talking about climate change, it's not the diversity of opinion that matters, it's the QUALITY of opinions that matter.  To read this guy's book just because it promotes your political views on climate change is counterproductive to proper understanding of a complex issue.

Rich: I agree that quality matters.  IMO, the author of the book is eminently qualified to render an opinion.  So I started this thread to note the conclusion he reached (for commentary by interested members, if any).

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Rich: To date, the only person in the world who has "pronounced" the author unqualified is you. IMO, you are not qualified to do so. Find me an exprert who says the author is unqualified... then get back to me.

Rich: I disagree.  The difference between us and the expert is that the expert did a multi-year study of all of the scientific literature.  We have not done so.

Rich: I agree that quality matters.  IMO, the author of the book is eminently qualified to render an opinion.  So I started this thread to note the conclusion he reached (for commentary by interested members, if any).

Bob

I have to say, the right employs literally every logical fallacy in the book to further it's agenda.  With this point you displayed text book shifting the burden of proof fallacy

SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition.  Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made.  The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

The difference between us and the expert is that the expert did a multi-year study of all of the scientific literature.

The guy read some science journals and now he is writing a book.  He is not an "expert" he is just like you or I (maybe more me since I have a science background) who is expressing his non-expert opinions.

the author of the book is eminently qualified to render an opinion.

Yet, thousands of actual experts who would meet the legal definition of an expert witness (which FACTUALLY the guy your claim to be an expert is not) you dismiss because they don't support your climate-denying views.

I guess we have circled back to the who confirmation bias thing

Edit to add-  On the first point you played a two for on the logical fallacies as you also employed the where you argued that lots of people claim your guy is an expert and verses me so the many must be correct


In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people" is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so".

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I have to say, the right employs literally every logical fallacy in the book to further it's agenda. 

That's pretty condescending to say that. How is having an opinion "an agenda". What exactly do you think is the "right wing agenda"???

Before I say what I think it is, be it known that I'm a registered Independent because I despise both parties - switched to "Ind" in 1972 - however, I'm fiscally conservative, socially open minded, and probably would be classified by the left and those needing to stereotype everyone into a group as a "Radical Right Wing Hate Mongering Racist Bastard" - Never mind that my heart and my home overflows with love - not just for each other, but our neighbors and acquaintances. I'm a born again Christian who attempts to emulate Christ's life, but fail often, but not for lack of trying. My siblings have interracial children and grandchildren and we don't see color - but if I listen to CNN, that's all I see. Pisses me off.

Here's my right wing agenda:

- individual freedom without an overbearing government bureaucracy spying on me and always telling how to live (according to their standards)
- the right to have an opinion and even speak that opinion openly - even if it doesn't correspond with the WOKE crowd - without being attacked
- I want the government to be efficient, cut costs, become lean, and be fiscally responsible so that my grandchildren and great grandchildren stand a chance to have a good life without being taxed into oblivion
- I love academics and am distressed at the failings of our schools that have switched from teaching kids how to think for themselves, and instead indoctrinate them with left wing socialist propaganda they call "progressive" and now we have a generation of kids who are dead last in math and science compared to all civil societies, but have been taught that all white people are inherently racists and all blacks and minorities are victims of incredible hatred. Saddens me that politicians own the teachers who then fan the flames of racism just to get more democrat politicians into office
- I am a student of history and therefore reject all forms of communism and socialism (communism lite) after seeing the utter failure of every attempt, each subsequent try thinking they are smarter than the last one the failed at it
- I love liberty and I love my country. I would die for it (not that I want to, but I would)
- I want my children, grandchildren to be free from an oppressive all-controlling government like that in China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
- In short: I just want to be free - free from harassment from the left, free to keep enough of my earnings to survive comfortably, a free from unelected faceless bureaucrats who tell me how to think and how to live. Screw them! 

Personally, I don't try to persuade my liberal friends to join me or my way of thinking or to vote the way I choose to vote in the privacy of a booth. Every person deserves to vote how they want and think how they want - this is America for heaven's sake (or used to be). On the other hand, I figure if they are intelligent, they'll eventually come around on their own - they usually do

[MightyGiants]

I am confused am I supposed to do as you say, or do as you do?      

Also, your effort to zing me doesn't bother me.  Ideologies are incompatible with my efforts to adhere to logic and avoid logical fallacies so I have little use for them. 

That's pretty condescending to say that. How is having an opinion "an agenda". What exactly do you think is the "right wing agenda"???

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I am confused am I supposed to do as you say, or do as you do?      

Also, your effort to zing me doesn't bother me.  Ideologies are incompatible with my efforts to adhere to logic and avoid logical fallacies so I have little use for them.

Sorry if I offended you. Wasn't really trying to zing anyone.

My beef is that you imply (or at least I inferred) that you believe those on the right have some sort of a "disingenuous hidden master plan" or something. IMHO, an agenda is meant to "change" things in a different direction - and if necessary - use tricks and deception to get something that couldn't be gotten otherwise so deceitful tactics become the norm. For the most part, I believe that the right is straight forward and honest in what they want. They aren't trying to use chicanery in an attempt to do something hidden and only want a responsible government that allows freedom for everyone and to follow the Constitution to the letter. I would think that would be a given to most people, but there are those on the left who want to radically change America away from the Constitution and away from the things that made America prosperous and a great place to live. There is no need for the right to use tactics to make their point clear. It is crystal clear and the right says as much. On the other hand, in order for the left to move the country in the direction of socialism the need for duplicity is incredibly important. They can't preach the end of the Constitution or building an all seeing, all controlling, freedom stifling, overpowering, monster government in D.C., because the average American would never buy it so misrepresentation is a huge requirement to fulfill their desires and are forced to use all means of disinformation and dishonesty, especially through the main stream media and academia.

I like Bernie Sanders. Not for his political viewpoints, but because of his direct honesty! He doesn't beat around the bush and says straight out that he wants America to radically change into a socialistic society. He doesn't beat around the bush like most on the left who pretend they want personal freedom and the opportunity for prosperity and happiness while voting for individuals who want to get rid of personal freedom, personal prosperity, and happiness. Bernie comes right out and says it: "we need a huge monstrous government to run every part of your life - then we'll take all your money and filter it through D.C. and give back some of it, i.e., what we think you should have" in order for life to be fair. In short, the left wants to use the sledge hammer of an unchecked political machine to make sure that there is "equal outcome" for everyone instead of "equal opportunity" for everyone. And as history has proven over and over and over again - it never works. Everyone ends up unhappy and poor...unless of course, you are politically connected and then you are golden. All politicians become the "royalty" and everyone not connected becomes the peasant. Unfortunately, there are people who believe an all controlling government attempting to make the life of everyone equal will "work this time" because we are smarter than all those countries who have tried it before. They believe that capitalism is the bane of society and the only "good" people left are the the omniscient politicians in the democrat party headed by Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, John Kerry, etc. Everyone else is ignorant and stupid.

People in this generation do not understand how far the left has come from just a generation or two ago. JFK would never get elected as a democrat as he would be a far right republican - even further right that the Bush's. Even FDR would no longer fit into the agenda of today's left and he'd be torched as a right leaning moderate. And for those who don't study politics, Ronald Reagan started life toying with socialism and a follower of FDR. He was a democrat until he was in his 50's and called himself an FDR democrat. He made the famous speech in his later years that he did not leave the democrat party, it left him. The democrat party today can pretty much be summed up as the party of Bernie Sanders and AOC (along with her squad) as these are the key people setting the agenda from which Biden gets his marching orders and who the party walks lock step to their drumbeat.

I'll stop rambling because once I get going, I am "brevity challenged" and tend to write books once I get going. My point is: the right has no hidden agenda and are straight forward in what they want and that is personal freedom and to stop the left from destroying this country by following in the footsteps of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Trotsky, Tito, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Ch

[MightyGiants]

JBG,

I am not offended because if I were to put an ideological label on myself, the label would be an independent critical thinker who is driven by the value of equality, fairness, honesty, and compassion.  So as I said the shots you took at liberals with your right-wing anti-liberal propaganda missed their mark.

I did find it rather interesting that you took offense at what you perceived as my slights toward's the American right-wing movement (although I was shorthanding the right-wing propaganda machine).  It's interesting that you find criticism of the right highly offensive while not only feeling comfortable posting anti-liberal AMerican propaganda but being opening contemptuous (repeatedly) towards the right's favorite liberal American representatives

One of the things that sticks in my craw, is that we are talked down to by media icons, politicians, actors, singers, Hollywood starlets (harlots) holding their signs "THE END IS NEAR" and subjected to climate fear-mongering tactics

I say interesting but hardly surprising as even the most cursory review of right-wing propaganda reveals one of their foundational principles is the demonization of Americans they don't agree with or feel are part of their "group".  Sometimes they will directly demonize a group of Americas like liberals or Democrats, or Muslims.  Other times they create proxy representatives of those groups like "Hollywood", but it's all to serve the same purpose.  It's to indoctrinate Americans into anger, outrage, fear, or outright hate for the fellow citizens often for the only offense of not agreeing with them (not that the RWPM will directly say that).  Angry or scared people are so much easier to manipulate than people thinking rationally.  Never in my over half-century on this planet can look back at a decision and think, "man if only I was more emotional when I made that decision"

It's sort of interesting JBG, the way you describe the right, they seem like the world's only perfect entity.   Does the right have any faults or agendas that are less than ideal for all Americans?

as a member of the independent critical thinking ideology, I see you singing the praise of the right while seeing a lot of serious inconsistencies.

left who want to radically change America away from the Constitution and away from the things that made America prosperous and a great place to live.

I always find this one interesting.  It's was summed up in the right's superstar icon Donald Trump's Make America Great slogan.   Most of the time when people talk about "made America prosperous and a great place to live" there is an unspoken (and often unrealized) subtext of "as a white American" or as a "straight white male".   I am sure most African Americans don't want the wheels of progress rolled back to the good old days when they couldn't live in white neighborhoods, were excluded from many jobs, and suffered many other injustices.   The same could be said of Americans who are part of LBGT community, they certainly don't have "good old days" to look on with fondess.   It's sort of ironic that the right (even in your own post) paints our federal government as this sinister entity that is hell-bent on robbing people of their rights and freedoms, yet most on the right loved the federal government banning gay marriage or allow a woman control of her own body.   Sort of serious inconsistency issue there. 

While I feel the right-wing propaganda machine has had a truly toxic effect on our nation, sometimes I can't help but admire their effectiveness.   I mean factually every time the GOP/Conservatives come to power the gap between the wealthy and the rest of us grows larger.     Yet oddly enough the RWPM managed to convince you that the left is out to steal all your money.   I mean an un-biased outside observe would look at the Dems/left's support of unions, better minimum wage, more worker rights, etc and then look at the right's focus on cutting taxes for the wealthy and giving more power to employers and conclude that anyone outside the wealthiest one or two percent would be crazy to support the right/GOP.   Yet they have you so convinced the left will steal your money (often using the communism bogey man that even made it into your anti-liberal propaganda) that you and many others will actively work against your own interests.

I could go on, but this post is long enough


Edit to add:  JBG I am really interesting where you see shortcomings among the American conservative movement/positons or at least areas you don't agree

[Jolly Blue Giant]

Exactly what propaganda do you believe the right is making with their machine? I've never met a right winger who didn't know exactly what they believed and wanted and spelled it out for all to see. No propaganda -no bait-n-switch - no false promises if you vote for such and such - no beating around the bush. The say they believe in the Constitution and following the Constitution to the letter - and they do. They say they love personal freedom to do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights, and yhat's what they do. They say they believe in the opportunity to pursue happiness as each person describes happiness, and that's what they do. The right just wants (and say that's what they want) for the mfng government to stay out of our mfgn business and let us live or lives as we see fit! We desire a small well run government. Draining the swamp of all the leeches suckling on Mother America's teat and drinking the milky wealth of taxpayer funded obscure behind the scenes government made jobs!

I couldn't help but notice you brought in racism again. All eight of my great, great grandfathers fought in the Civil War because they were so adamantly against slavery - two of them were wounded and spent the rest of their lives as cripples. Seven of my great, great, great uncles gave up their lives in the civil war. You can read their letters if you want by going to https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/clementsead/umich-wcl-M-3330.1oti?view=text and requesting their letters. All four of the men were my uncles and they gave up their lives in that war for a purpose they believed in. Before they marched to war, they held secret meetings in the now defunct Forrest Lake Baptist Church in Susquehanna County, PA where they formed protests against slavery and marched through downtown Montrose, PA in parades making their objections to slavery known to everyone - and this was long before the Civil War broke out and when it did break out, they were first in line to sign up.

Regardless, I carry the genes of people who gave up their lives to fight for the freedom of blacks. My family has intermarried with blacks and my family adopted two black children. My entire life I have never been a racist or even harbored racist thoughts. I am not a "rich white man" because I am white. I don't know what it's like to be rich. I grew up on a farm with chores since I was 5 years old - and some of them were brutal. I put myself through college working three jobs and was so busy working that I didn't even bother to go to my graduation ceremonies and simply waited until the papers came in the mail from Binghamton University and Syracuse University. Although I have a lot of education and have expertise in several fields (I am considered a GD&T guru and have taught the subject for years to hundreds of engineers and manufacturing personnel as well as teaching statistics to monitor trends, etc while simultaneously working as an engineer), I have not gotten rich. I've gotten somewhat comfortable and have been able to help my now grown kids through college and supporting their dreams, but I am anything but rich. But, if I listen to CNN or MSNBC I discover that the work I did on the farm or what I had to do to get my education is only because I'm white...and therefore, I am automatically a racist and nothing I did in life earned what I now possess. It's insulting. But that's the mantra of every left winger I know. Stir the pot of racism over and over and over and hope to create a race war so that more useless democrats win the lottery by getting elected to office 

[MightyGiants]

Exactly what propaganda do you believe the right is making with their machine? I've never met a right winger who didn't know exactly what they believed and wanted and spelled it out for all to see. No propaganda -no bait-n-switch - no false promises if you vote for such and such - no beating around the bush. The say they believe in the Constitution and following the Constitution to the letter - and they do. They say they love personal freedom to do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights, and yhat's what they do. They say they believe in the opportunity to pursue happiness as each person describes happiness, and that's what they do. The right just wants (and say that's what they want) for the mfng government to stay out of our mfgn business and let us live or lives as we see fit! We desire a small well run government. Draining the swamp of all the leeches suckling on Mother America's teat and drinking the milky wealth of taxpayer funded obscure behind the scenes government made jobs!

I couldn't help but notice you brought in racism again. All eight of my great, great grandfathers fought in the Civil War because they were so adamantly against slavery - two of them were wounded and spent the rest of their lives as cripples. Seven of my great, great, great uncles gave up their lives in the civil war. You can read their letters if you want by going to https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/clementsead/umich-wcl-M-3330.1oti?view=text and requesting their letters. All four of the men were my uncles and they gave up their lives in that war for a purpose they believed in. Before they marched to war, they held secret meetings in the now defunct Forrest Lake Baptist Church in Susquehanna County, PA where they formed protests against slavery and marched through downtown Montrose, PA in parades making their objections to slavery known to everyone - and this was long before the Civil War broke out and when it did break out, they were first in line to sign up.

Regardless, I carry the genes of people who gave up their lives to fight for the freedom of blacks. My family has intermarried with blacks and my family adopted two black children. My entire life I have never been a racist or even harbored racist thoughts. I am not a "rich white man" because I am white. I don't know what it's like to be rich. I grew up on a farm with chores since I was 5 years old - and some of them were brutal. I put myself through college working three jobs and was so busy working that I didn't even bother to go to my graduation ceremonies and simply waited until the papers came in the mail from Binghamton University and Syracuse University. Although I have a lot of education and have expertise in several fields (I am considered a GD&T guru and have taught the subject for years to hundreds of engineers and manufacturing personnel as well as teaching statistics to monitor trends, etc while simultaneously working as an engineer), I have not gotten rich. I've gotten somewhat comfortable and have been able to help my now grown kids through college and supporting their dreams, but I am anything but rich. But, if I listen to CNN or MSNBC I discover that the work I did on the farm or what I had to do to get my education is only because I'm white...and therefore, I am automatically a racist and nothing I did in life earned what I now possess. It's insulting. But that's the mantra of every left winger I know. Stir the pot of racism over and over and over and hope to create a race war so that more useless democrats win the lottery by getting elected to office 

A few points of interest in your comments.  You keep saying how you are insulted and offended, yet why do you not provide the same courtesy to the left?   I mean you never take a chance to demonize and insult liberal Americans.  You talk about them like they are evil monsters that are out to hurt you personally.    I mean what happened to the golden rule of treating others as they wish to be treated?   How can you immediately go to full outrage mode at the slightest criticism of the right and yet feel so comfortable with your own far worse denigration of Americans you don't agree with?

You keep talking about the right like they are perfect.  I that really what you think?  Is there anything the right does that is less than ideal?  Do you part ways with them on any issues?

I also would like to talk about your reaction to my point that female Americans, minorities, and Americans who are part of the LGBT community don't long for the old days like white (especially straight male) Americans do.   Your reaction was no a logic-based thought about the point being made. Instead, you were conditioned to go full-on defensive rage mode at the slightest mention of disparities.   HOW DARE YOU CALL ME RACIST shut down any sort of productive or reasonable dialog (as the right-wing propaganda network wants it).  The FACT of the matter is I didn't call you racist.  Yet that didn't stop me from enduring your rage.

Let me focus the discussion on one of the other examples where you will hopefully react less violently

The following list is of NINE things a woman couldn