Big Blue Huddle

Eventually, IMO, the Giants will line up Kadarius Toney at every offensive skill position.

It's a certainty that he'll take a few direct snaps this season from some sort of "wildcat" type formation. 

But he was recruited to college as a QB... so I wonder how you assess the chances that he'll take at least one snap this season from UNDER CENTER?

Bob

Bob, I don't know if he'll take a snap under center, but, I agree they will try everything within their system to try to get him into some space. Last year Garrett was limited in what he can call for a myriad of reasons.

How about passes off a jet sweep or reverse ala OBJ

At this point, I would be happy if Toney shows up to camp attends practice regularly, and shows a good attitude.  Until I see that, I am really not thinking about all the other things the team might be able to do with him.  I might be worrying for nothing, but I really have my concerns.

I remember prior to the draft.   There were many smart people saying this isn't the year to gamble on a prospect because there was only limited opportunities to interact and scout prospects.   I wonder if the Giants made a mistake drafting Toney as he was a prospect that came with character questions. 

Quote from: FL GMAN on July 22, 2021, 01:23:38 PM
How about passes off a jet sweep or reverse ala OBJ

FL-G: THAT is going to happen.  Even Nick Falato has predicted that Toney will throw a few passes this season, likely off the fake reverse.  Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2021, 01:28:55 PM
At this point, I would be happy if Toney shows up to camp attends practice regularly, and shows a good attitude.  Until I see that, I am really not thinking about all the other things the team might be able to do with him.  I might be worrying for nothing, but I really have my concerns.

I remember prior to the draft.   There were many smart people saying this isn't the year to gamble on a prospect because there was only limited opportunities to interact and scout prospects.   I wonder if the Giants made a mistake drafting Toney as he was a prospect that came with character questions.

Rich: You're not alone.  Toney is an "outside the box" guy, which can be off-putting to many fans, but I think you're being a bit too guarded in your attitude. He's a fun-loving happy type of guy like Lamar Jackson, IMO. Bob

I think you're on to something, Bob. I hope they can utilize his skill set and athleticism to it's fullest potential.

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 22, 2021, 01:32:49 PM
Rich: You're not alone.  Toney is an "outside the box" guy, which can be off-putting to many fans, but I think you're being a bit too guarded in your attitude. He's a fun-loving happy type of guy like Lamar Jackson, IMO. Bob

I was talking to Jamie on the phone last night.  I referred to Toney as OBJ without the accomplishments ;)

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2021, 01:28:55 PM
At this point, I would be happy if Toney shows up to camp attends practice regularly, and shows a good attitude.  Until I see that, I am really not thinking about all the other things the team might be able to do with him.  I might be worrying for nothing, but I really have my concerns.

I remember prior to the draft.   There were many smart people saying this isn't the year to gamble on a prospect because there was only limited opportunities to interact and scout prospects.   I wonder if the Giants made a mistake drafting Toney as he was a prospect that came with character questions.

There was certainly a gamble here but I think they looked at it this way:

-We just scored a 1st round pick next year (which could easily be a top 15 one).
-We wanted a wide receiver to complement what we have and he in theory does that along with being a very high upside guy with his freakish change of direction ability

So in summation they felt at 20 with what they got to move down to 20 it was 'worth' the risk at that point.

I have to say I'm with Rich on this one. I hope for the best with and for Toney, but until I see something.....
And as far as Lamar Jackson goes, I don't think he ever had cleat problems or opted out of workouts.
Fingers crossed.

I can definitely see Toney taking a snap from behind center and running some read option.  Not often, but doesn't have to be....   I'm gonna love seeing DJ splitting out  :laugh:

While I don't like the term, gadget player, there can be little doubt that the Giants will use Toney in a variety of ways from the slot, and outside in bunch, and I would expect also in sweeps and screens, and a Z Reverse.

Of course, one of his great strengths has been turning short passes into big gainers. Of his 1,583 career receiving yards at Florida, 64.4% of those came after the catch. That's what leads me to imagine the Giants Offense combining his short pass explosiveness with Golliday's as a deep threat. I'm less keen on seeing him in a Wildcat but, quien sabe, we are starting from nada

En todo caso, let's hope they all stay healthy and have a really good camp.

Cheers!

Larry having Mexican food tonight? Arriba!  =))

Quote from: beaugestus on July 22, 2021, 02:25:33 PM
Larry having Mexican food tonight? Arriba!  =))

Arriba! indeed, John. Unfortunately, I'm not fast enough to be confused with Speedy Gonzalez. And I'm too old to be a Spanish Gadfly. ;)

Cheers!

Just so I'm clear, the only thing that Toney has actually done (or not done) that can really be criticized is not showing up for OTAs, right?

Maybe I'm forgetting something. But the cleat thing was not his fault, and if he genuinely had a family emergency (I think it is only fair to believe him unless there is evidence or probable cause that he was lying), then missing some time at work is hardly grounds for criticism. The tweeting and rapping is not a problem until it somehow becomes one.

Am I missing something? This might be a tempest in a teapot...

I hope your right Dave. He's a very talented young man.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2021, 02:43:11 PM
Just so I'm clear, the only thing that Toney has actually done (or not done) that can really be criticized is not showing up for OTAs, right?

Maybe I'm forgetting something. But the cleat thing was not his fault, and if he genuinely had a family emergency (I think it is only fair to believe him unless there is evidence or probably cause that he was lying), then missing some time at work is hardly grounds for criticism. The tweeting and rapping is not a problem until it becomes one.

Am I missing something? This might be a tempest in a teapot...

Dave,

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is likely to be or he is surely going to be a problem.  However, there are many of us who feel there is a reason for concern, with all the issues that have gone on.   I would add his retweet Cole Beasley's anti-vax message to the negative side of Toney's ledger  (won't it be great if Toney costs the Giants a game because he gets Covid and infects enough of his fellow players that the Giants have to forfeit?).  As for some of the other Tweets, I appreciate they could prove to be harmless, but I can't completely rule out that they could be red flags.

I would say if there weren't character issues with Toney coming out of college, it would be easier to dismiss everything.  Since he did have character issues, how things have gone since he was drafted has done nothing to assuage concerns.   For all I know, most of the "odd" behavior was the Giants hiding an injury issue Toney was dealing with (Giants don't have to give injury information this time of year). 

Hopefully in a week or two this whole issue will be behind us

I could see Jason Garrett using Toney for slant routes, dig routes, as well as bubble screen-type plays. I would like to see Barkley and Toney in the backfield at the same time..perhaps in an I-formation, with Golladay , Slayton and Sheppard playing WR and Engram or Rudolph at TE....lol.....how is a defensive coordinator going to stop that? And lets not forget Danny Dimes can run....

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2021, 03:04:14 PM
Dave,

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is likely to be or he is surely going to be a problem.  However, there are many of us who feel there is a reason for concern, with all the issues that have gone on.   I would add his retweet Cole Beasley's anti-vax message to the negative side of Toney's ledger  (won't it be great if Toney costs the Giants a game because he gets Covid and infects enough of his fellow players that the Giants have to forfeit?).  As for some of the other Tweets, I appreciate they could prove to be harmless, but I can't completely rule out that they could be red flags.

I would say if there weren't character issues with Toney coming out of college, it would be easier to dismiss everything.  Since he did have character issues, how things have gone since he was drafted has done nothing to assuage concerns.   For all I know, most of the "odd" behavior was the Giants hiding an injury issue Toney was dealing with (Giants don't have to give injury information this time of year). 

Hopefully in a week or two this whole issue will be behind us

I was never really clear on what his character issues were in college. I know there was some smoke there, but the only actual incident I read about was the gun thing, which the cops ultimately determined was not unlawful.

If Toney ends up being a bad apple, this won't be a good look for Judge. He was adamant in a post-draft interview that he and others did their due dilligence on Toney and determined that the character stuff was a non-issue and that he was a good kid. If that turns out to have been a poor read on their part, he'll be criticized for that for sure.

Jackknife

That's what we'll see from Toney early. He has no real chance of beating out a veteran top 3 of Golladay, Shepard and Slayton this year. If they're healthy, they're the top 3.

But Toney's a 1st round pick, and he'll play plenty. I suspect he'll be the KR, PR and gadget player right away. Get the D flowing with Barkley and come back the other way with Toney. When they stretch horizontally, hit the deep ball to Golladay.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2021, 02:43:11 PM
Just so I'm clear, the only thing that Toney has actually done (or not done) that can really be criticized is not showing up for OTAs, right?

Maybe I'm forgetting something. But the cleat thing was not his fault, and if he genuinely had a family emergency (I think it is only fair to believe him unless there is evidence or probable cause that he was lying), then missing some time at work is hardly grounds for criticism. The tweeting and rapping is not a problem until it somehow becomes one.

Am I missing something? This might be a tempest in a teapot...

Its the combination of all them together in short succession . Then one of our coaches making mention of him having to understand quickly what NFL life is all about tell you that he is off to a bit of an inauspicious start.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2021, 03:04:14 PM
Dave,

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is likely to be or he is surely going to be a problem.  However, there are many of us who feel there is a reason for concern, with all the issues that have gone on.   I would add his retweet Cole Beasley's anti-vax message to the negative side of Toney's ledger  (won't it be great if Toney costs the Giants a game because he gets Covid and infects enough of his fellow players that the Giants have to forfeit?).  As for some of the other Tweets, I appreciate they could prove to be harmless, but I can't completely rule out that they could be red flags.

I would say if there weren't character issues with Toney coming out of college, it would be easier to dismiss everything.  Since he did have character issues, how things have gone since he was drafted has done nothing to assuage concerns.   
For all I know, most of the "odd" behavior was the Giants hiding an injury issue Toney was dealing with (Giants don't have to give injury information this time of year). 

Hopefully in a week or two this whole issue will be behind us

The one thing that I keep coming back to is that the OL is such a question mark from top to bottom.  There is not 1 player that is even in the conversation as a sure thing much less a pro bowl type. I don

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 22, 2021, 03:36:10 PM
I was never really clear on what his character issues were in college. I know there was some smoke there, but the only actual incident I read about was the gun thing, which the cops ultimately determined was not unlawful.

If Toney ends up being a bad apple, this won't be a good look for Judge. He was adamant in a post-draft interview that he and others did their due dilligence on Toney and determined that the character stuff was a non-issue and that he was a good kid. If that turns out to have been a poor read on their part, he'll be criticized for that for sure.

I think if Toney crashes and burn it comes back on both Gettleman and Judge, however, I think Judge will survive the blowback

In May of 2018, Toney was detained

Toney has hit everything but the lottery with his start with the New York Football Giants. Add Kovid to the list

Quote from: nb587 on July 22, 2021, 04:59:04 PM
The one thing that I keep coming back to is that the OL is such a question mark from top to bottom.  There is not 1 player that is even in the conversation as a sure thing much less a pro bowl type. I don

I'm rooting for this kid. Maybe he'll grow through this adversity. Anyone know the Tyree story?

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 22, 2021, 01:28:55 PM
At this point, I would be happy if Toney shows up to camp attends practice regularly, and shows a good attitude.  Until I see that, I am really not thinking about all the other things the team might be able to do with him.  I might be worrying for nothing, but I really have my concerns.

I remember prior to the draft.   There were many smart people saying this isn't the year to gamble on a prospect because there was only limited opportunities to interact and scout prospects.   I wonder if the Giants made a mistake drafting Toney as he was a prospect that came with character questions.

Oh, you foolish foolish foolish man.  Why don't you ask for the sun and the moon while you're at it!   :laugh: =))

It is what it is.


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And now there's this....

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2021/07/23/new-york-giants-place-kadarius-toney-reserve-covid-19-list/?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=fishburne&utm_content=home-hero (https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2021/07/23/new-york-giants-place-kadarius-toney-reserve-covid-19-list/?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=fishburne&utm_content=home-hero)

The "look-at-me" media has nothing better to talk about.   I don't know about all of you but as a Giants fan I choose to ignore them.  The don't deserve my patronage. 

Toney's shoe didn't fit... my feet aren't the same size either... the problem has now been solved.  He had a minor injury... these things happen in pro sports... now the injury is healed. 

His lawyer told him not to go to voluntary camps until his contract was signed... the vast majority of NFL players receive the same legal advice... almost all of them follow it.

He recorded a rap video...  would you rather he goes out to a nightclub and shoots himself in the foot?  I can't think of a better way to stay out of trouble than to stay home.

Judge this guy by his contributions on the field.  That day will come soon enough and then we can with justification criticize his routes, his drops, his mental errors, etc., rather nit-pick his personal life.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
The "look-at-me" media has nothing better to talk about.   I don't know about all of you but as a Giants fan I choose to ignore them.  The don't deserve my patronage. 

Tone's shoe didn't fit... my feet aren't the same size either... the problem has now been solved.  He had a minor injury... these things happen in pro sports... now the injury is healed. 

His lawyer told him not to go to voluntary camps until his contract was signed... the vast majority of NFL players receive the same legal advice... almost all of them follow it.

He recorded a rap video...  would you rather he goes out to a nightclub and shoots himself in the foot?  I can't think of a better way to stay out of trouble than to stay home.

Judge this guy by his contributions on the field.  That day will come soon enough and then we can with justification criticize his routes, his drops, his mental errors, etc., rather nit-pick his personal life.

Bob

Bob,

I don't think that the media is somehow the villain in all of this.  As for judging Toney on his contributions on the field, I think every fan would love to do so.  The problem is Toney hasn't given us the opportunity.   Also, the players are not advised to avoid OTAs until their contracts are signed.   Most get insurance against injury and with the rookie wage scale in place, there is little to no risk for the rookies, especially the higher round picks.


I get it though, no single incident with Toney is that significant.   It just feels like we are facing a death by a thousand cuts.   There is still a good chance we will be looking back at all these little issues months from now with amusement.   There unfortunately is also a chance that they could be indication of bad things to come.

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
The "look-at-me" media has nothing better to talk about.   I don't know about all of you but as a Giants fan I choose to ignore them.  The don't deserve my patronage. 

Tone's shoe didn't fit... my feet aren't the same size either... the problem has now been solved.  He had a minor injury... these things happen in pro sports... now the injury is healed. 

His lawyer told him not to go to voluntary camps until his contract was signed... the vast majority of NFL players receive the same legal advice... almost all of them follow it.

He recorded a rap video...  would you rather he goes out to a nightclub and shoots himself in the foot?  I can't think of a better way to stay out of trouble than to stay home.

Judge this guy by his contributions on the field.  That day will come soon enough and then we can with justification criticize his routes, his drops, his mental errors, etc., rather nit-pick his personal life.

Bob

Bob

Amazing point and well written.

How pathetic is it that this kid has done NOTHING WRONG and fans and the media are getting all hot and bothered and lathered up over what is truly NOTHING!

This is an absolute knee jerk reaction because of some recent history we have had and fans are paranoid and the media (because it is quiet and slow) needs a story so they are making mountains out of mole hills.




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No we shouldn't judge him yet and he could easily get past all these 'little' things that have come up. We'll see...but he has undoubtedly missed a lot of development /practice time which is unfortunate.

Is it true that Toney is an anti-vaxer? I read that he retweeted some of Cole Beasley's BS propaganda.

This guy is a bit of a distraction

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 09:51:28 AM
Bob

Amazing point and well written.

How pathetic is it that this kid has done NOTHING WRONG and fans and the media are getting all hot and bothered and lathered up over what is truly NOTHING!

This is an absolute knee jerk reaction because of some recent history we have had and fans are paranoid and the media (because it is quiet and slow) needs a story so they are making mountains out of mole hills.

Slugs: Yeah, I forgot to mention that he's not in jail or charged with committing a crime, nor has he violated any team rules or done anything other than live his life while awaiting a chance to get on the field.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Slugs: Yeah, I forgot to mention that he's not in jail or charged with committing a crime, nor has he violated any team rules or done anything other than live his life while awaiting a chance to get on the field.  Bob

Exactly

If the shoes fit and he has a great practice it

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 10:01:18 AM
Exactly

If the shoes fit and he has a great practice it

Quote from: Trench on July 23, 2021, 09:56:55 AM
This guy is a bit of a distraction

He seems like more of a ghost than a distraction at this point.

We don't know that much though. And I am largely in Bob's camp at this stage, just basically because I am generally a believer in innocent until proven guilty. I don't like to just assume the worst about people. With that said I do understand why some are concerned. And I myself would have preferred that his transition to life as a Giant would have been more seamless to this point than it has been.

If Toney is in fact displaying a bad attitude or a general lack of hunger, I hope that Judge is not taking a soft approach with him. Coughlin was notably harsh with rookies. He was old school that way. I hope Judge is reading him the riot act and threatening to bench him for a long time or possibly even get rid o him if he is not diplaying the right attitude. We don't know that that has been the case though. We are all working off pretty incomplete information at this point.

Quote from: TDToomer on July 23, 2021, 10:07:13 AM
If he selfishly refused to get vaccinated than we can and will judge him for that thank you.

Ignorant people would sure




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Quote from: TDToomer on July 23, 2021, 10:07:13 AM
If he selfishly refused to get vaccinated than we can and will judge him for that thank you.

TD: It's none of your business whether he got vaccinated or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?  Or do you believe you also have the right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 10:17:52 AM
TD: It's none of your business whether he got vaccinated or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?  Or do you believe you also have the right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?  Bob

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You guys have to admit, it's amusing that conservatives are now adopting the "my body my choice" line of reasoning in support of the anti-vaxers after decades of opposing that very viewpoint with their own anti-abortion view.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 10:33:39 AM
You guys have to admit, it's amusing that conservatives are now adopting the "my body my choice" line of reasoning in support of the anti-vaxers after decades of opposing that very viewpoint with their own anti-abortion view.

And it

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 10:38:41 AM
And it

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 10:44:02 AM
Yeah although I don't think anyone is saying that non-vaxing should be illegal. So it's not quite the same thing.

Regardless.  The premise is the same AND there are those that believe it should be mandated so there are parallels




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Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 10:17:52 AM
TD: It's none of your business whether he got vaccinated or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?  Or do you believe you also have the right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?  Bob

Bob,

I'll concede your point if you can tell me how a women's abortion impacts you, the health system, or our economy.
Unlike abortions, the choice to vaccinate has clear impacts on others, especially the elderly and medically vulnerable.  Vaccinations is our ONLY viable defense at eradicating this horrendous virus.  So yes, it is our business; in fact, in my line of work, we have the authority to verify someone's vaccination.  I am thankful prior generations were concerned with the greater good; otherwise, polio and multiple other virus would still exist today....   

Here are 14 diseases eliminated by vaccinations.  If people thought as Slugs, they would still exists today; yet, he has the gull to call others ignorant.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/forgot-14-diseases.html

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 10:56:08 AM
Unlike abortions, the choice to vaccinate has clear impacts on others

I think the pro-life community would disagree with this point. They would surely regard the aborted fetus as an "other" who has been impacted by the decision to abort.

And therein lies the crux of the entire abortion debate. No point in going down that whole road in a football forum, however I think you are unlikely to persuade any pro lifers here that abortion does not also have "clear impacts on others."

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 11:03:17 AM
I think the pro-life community would disagree with this point. They would surely regard the aborted fetus as an "other" who has been impacted by the decision to abort.

And therein lies the crux of the entire abortion debate. No point in going down that whole road in a football forum, however I think you are unlikely to persuade any pro lifers here that abortion does not also have "clear impacts on others."

Dave, I don't see the correlation; abortions are limited to two people and only two people; a virus has the ability to impact billions.  It's not the same; not even close....

One you are taking a clear action to end a life. The other you are not. You can not definitely say if you are unvaccinated that it will kill someone else but in an abortion you are most definitely without a doubt ending a life.

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 11:04:52 AM
Dave, I don't see the correlation; abortions are limited to two people and only two people; a virus has the ability to impact billions.  It's not the same; not even close....

Abortion has an impact on more than 2 people 1 of which is the baby that is killed, i think that would be a major factor as that is a guaranteed life loss, someone getting Covid isn

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 10:56:08 AM
I'll concede your point if you can tell me how a women's abortion impacts you, the health system, or our economy.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/forgot-14-diseases.html

King: I'm not going to pick on minor details in your post (for example, polio actually still exists today, as you probably know; it even says so in the link you posted) but rather attempt to answer your question.

You misconceive my point.  It was not to equate the two subjects (as we both know, they are not equal) but rather to INTENTIONALLY AND UNFAIRLY present a conundrum to the poster.

My purpose was to illustrate as best as I could how it must feel for Toney to hear other people say they have a RIGHT to judge how he makes a serious and important medical decision.

As we both know, the vaccine is very effective. A person who's fully vaccinated (as I am) has decided it's better/safer for them to take the tiny risk that the vaccination will produce a bad result than to risk getting covid.

But I'm an old man at greater risk than Toney of dying from the disease.  Toney may well have decided that FOR HIM, the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine is greater than the risk of dying from the virus.

The attempt to shame, bully or simply cajole other people with regard to making difficult personal medical decisions is a VERY slippery slope. I believe we cannot allow that to happen and still have a "free" country.

If we can be "forced" to take a vaccine, maybe we can also be forced to have medical experimentation done on our bodies.  I don't think we should go down that road, today or ever.  Hope that answers your question.

Bob

We have a slew of vaccinations we require students to have before they enter school.  Once fully approved, the COVID vaccine should be exactly the same.   Ignoring the science of all this should not be an option once it's fully approved.  It's incredibly frustrating as an educator and parent to know that we're about to head into ANOTHER school year with all these necessary protocols and restrictions, just because a large number of our population has been successfully indoctrinated to not trust science and doctors anymore in the name of "freedom". 

So let's hurry up and get these vaccines fully approved for all ages, start making them mandatory from schools and businesses, and put this latest ugly political chapter into the history books already.

Once again, the original topic betrays us. It is indeed a reflection of what is so seriously wrong with our country which is that our notion of freedom has become pernicious. Much of it is a consequence of the politics of low self-esteem.

Certainly, there is no worse affliction for anyone to have to bear than low self-esteem. While it is obvious that racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and religious bigotry are rampant, they are all a reflection of the insecurities, and delusions of a nation which has for so long has shouted, "We're Number One", not hypocritically, but rather as a defense against the truth, and the disgrace we all share.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on July 23, 2021, 11:55:23 AM
We have a slew of vaccinations we require students to have before they enter school.  Once fully approved, the COVID vaccine should be exactly the same.   Ignoring the science of all this should not be an option once it's fully approved.  It's incredibly frustrating as an educator and parent to know that we're about to head into ANOTHER school year with all these necessary protocols and restrictions, just because a large number of our population has been successfully indoctrinated to not trust science and doctors anymore in the name of "freedom". 

So let's hurry up and get these vaccines fully approved for all ages, start making them mandatory from schools and businesses, and put this latest ugly political chapter into the history books already.

PSU:  I see where you're coming from, and I see you bending over backwards to be reasonable and thoughtful, but I can't agree at this time.  We don't know the long-term effects, especially on children. 

IMO, we must wait until enough time has passed to allow us to observe and study long-term consequences (if any) to everyone, but especially to kids. In particular, what is the optimal age at which it should be given?

As you probably know, this type of vaccine is unlike any other that has ever been mass-distributed in all of human history.  It is not a simple cure, like the polio vaccine (for example), but works in a different way.

Bob

Painter,
Sometimes, as history has shown us, and yes, we could all learn much from studying history, great civilizations eventually tumble due to many different circumstances, mostly brought on not by an invasion or war, but by their own bloat and mistakes. Sadly, the way things are now, we are heading in that direction. It won't happen overnight and maybe not in any of our lifetimes, but that is the direction it is going.

Quote from: katkavage on July 23, 2021, 12:12:41 PM
Painter,
Sometimes, as history has shown us, and yes, we could all learn much from studying history, great civilizations eventually tumble due to many different circumstances, mostly brought on not by an invasion or war, but by their own bloat and mistakes. Sadly, the way things are now, we are heading in that direction. It won't happen overnight and maybe not in any of our lifetimes, but that is the direction it is going.

kat: I think we might disagree more than we agree, but I agree with you on this point (probably for completely different reasons, though LOL).  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 10:17:52 AM
TD: It's none of your business whether he got vaccinated or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?  Or do you believe you also have the right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?  Bob

It's sort of humorous, Bob's point is so off the rails that you could just as easily say:

"It's none of your business if Toney works out or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?   Or do you believe you also have a right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?"  Could be Bob


At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if Toney refusing to get vaccinated helps or hurt the team (factually and logically speaking, there is no legit argument that favors not getting vaccinated)?   

Toney opted to hurt his team by refusing to get vaccinated.  As the fans that either directly or indirectly pay his salary they have a right to judge that action.

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 12:21:36 PM
It's sort of humorous, Bob's point is so off the rails that you could just as easily say:

"It's none of your business if Toney works out or not.  Who are you to judge what he does with his body?   Or do you believe you also have a right to tell a woman whether or not to get an abortion?"  Could be Bob


At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if Toney refusing to get vaccinated helps or hurt the team (factually and logically speaking, there is no legit argument that favors not getting vaccinated)?   

Toney opted to hurt his team by refusing to get vaccinated.  As the fans that either directly or indirectly pay his salary they have a right to judge that action.

Rich: Apples and oranges.  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 11:45:36 AM
King: I'm not going to pick on minor details in your post (for example, polio actually still exists today, as you probably know; it even says so in the link you posted) but rather attempt to answer your question.

You misconceive my point.  It was not to equate the two subjects (as we both know, they are not equal) but rather to INTENTIONALLY AND UNFAIRLY present a conundrum to the poster.

My purpose was to illustrate as best as I could how it must feel for Toney to hear other people say they have a RIGHT to judge how he makes a serious and important medical decision.

As we both know, the vaccine is very effective. A person who's fully vaccinated (as I am) has decided it's better/safer for them to take the tiny risk that the vaccination will produce a bad result than to risk getting covid.

But I'm an old man at greater risk than Toney of dying from the disease.  Toney may well have decided that FOR HIM, the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine is greater than the risk of dying from the virus.

The attempt to shame, bully or simply cajole other people with regard to making difficult personal medical decisions is a VERY slippery slope. I believe we cannot allow that to happen and still have a "free" country.

If we can be "forced" to take a vaccine, maybe we can also be forced to have medical experimentation done on our bodies.  I don't think we should go down that road, today or ever.  Hope that answers your question.

Bob

Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you. 

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 12:41:25 PM
Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you.

king: Situations like your dad's (my condolences) represent the strongest argument for requiring as many folks as possible to be vaccinated. I strongly favor it (as you do) but have trouble forcing it on anyone. Bob

I am very sorry about your Father, King. I can't begin to imagine how difficult for everyone involved that must have been.

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 12:31:21 PM
Rich: Apples and oranges.  Bob

Not exactly, working out helps Toney's contribution to the team, just like getting the vaccine.   

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 12:51:58 PM
king: Situations like your dad's (my condolences) represent the strongest argument for requiring as many folks as possible to be vaccinated. I strongly favor it (as you do) but have trouble forcing it on anyone. Bob

You are pro-vaccinations yet you trash my opinion that Toney's decision not to get one is bad for team and reflects poorly on him. OK then.   

Quote from: TDToomer on July 23, 2021, 01:04:58 PM
You are pro-vaccinations yet you trash my opinion that Toney's decision not to get one is bad for team and reflects poorly on him. OK then.

It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision not to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 01:09:00 PM
It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

Rich: You use the word "bad" as though you believe your judgment is infallible. Forcing your views on other people seldom works. The best you can do is provide guidance and cross fingers. I speak as a parent. LOL  Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
PSU:  I see where you're coming from, and I see you bending over backwards to be reasonable and thoughtful, but I can't agree at this time.  We don't know the long-term effects, especially on children. 

IMO, we must wait until enough time has passed to allow us to observe and study long-term consequences (if any) to everyone, but especially to kids. In particular, what is the optimal age at which it should be given?

As you probably know, this type of vaccine is unlike any other that has ever been mass-distributed in all of human history.  It is not a simple cure, like the polio vaccine (for example), but works in a different way.

Bob

Bob

Agreed.  The vaccine our kids are given were not created in months.  They were created, Studied and approved after YEARS AND YEARS of development and testing. 

To start sticking out children with something we don

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 12:57:09 PM
I am very sorry about your Father, King. I can't begin to imagine how difficult for everyone involved that must have been.

Thanks, Dave; this will be the first football season without him.  I'm sure many here experienced something similar as the love of football (giants) is typically passed on to us from our parents. I know I did my fatherly duties as my son is a 4th generation Giants fan...I feel I've made my contributions to society.      ;)

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 12:41:25 PM
Bob, I have immense respect for you, my friend.  I have no desire to quibble with someone so kind and open-minded. I'll admit to some bias on this subject as I lost my dad to Covid, having watched him on a ventilator for almost 30-days before his organs finally succumbed to the virus.  He was unable to take a vaccine due to medical complications; so, he was forced to rely on others executing good judgment. The same is simply not true for abortions.  Regardless, I'll leave it there, my friend....I have no desire to argue with you.

King

My deepest condolences for your loss.  It is why I do believe for those at the highest risk this vaccine that was developed in amazing time should be taken for those that want it.  I think it

I get really tired of the argument, "personal freedom and choice matters most."  We live in a society and as such, we need to follow logical rules to co-exist.  I hate what I call the affluent hippie Marin County argument anti-vaccination folks saying kids get too many vaccinations which they think is risky, yet they want them to interact with society.  Sorry they can't have it both ways.  If they want to be part of society, they need to get vaccinated.  If they don't want to get them vaccinated, then let them create their own self-isolated society.

Same with Anti-Covid vaccine folks.  We live in a shared society.  We need to work together to protect each other.  The numbers are so overwhelmingly clear that anti-vaccine folks are the vast, vast majority (something between 95% - 99%) of those getting Covid now and the highly risky Delta variant and causing these spikes.  Personal freedom?  Think the vaccine is risky yet you may drink alcohol, eat unhealthy food, smoke cigarettes yet those are ok?  Give me a break.  Get the damn shot and think of others before yourself.  Sorry to all for this rant.

Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 01:20:33 PM
Rich: You use the word "bad" as though you believe your judgment is infallible. Forcing your views on other people seldom works. The best you can do is provide guidance and cross fingers. I speak as a parent. LOL  Bob

I keep forgetting you don't believe in science, medicine, or experts.    This isn't my "opinion" this is the conclusion of scientists, doctors, and public health experts.  My "opinion" is that we should follow science, fact, and reason"

If the WW 2 generation was the greatest generation, imagine this would be the crap generation. 

Imagine being drafted-   "don't tell me what to do.  FREEDOM!!!"  "People have the right to do whatever they want, including not serving in the draft!!!"

Imagine asking being to save gasoline and other critical war supplies-  "don't tell me what to do.  FREEDOM!!! as they go for a needless trip just to spite"  "It's hasn't been proven you need fuel or the war effort!"

Imagine telling people "loose lips sink ships"-  "FREEDOM!!!" "I am going to tell anyone I want what I want"  "Besides what proof do you have?!?!?  My Cousin gave this German all the allied shipping schedules and half of those ships still made it to England!"

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 01:41:45 PM
King

My deepest condolences for your loss.  It is why I do believe for those at the highest risk this vaccine that was developed in amazing time should be taken for those that want it.  I think it

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 01:09:00 PM
It's sort of interesting.  You have people who have gotten the vaccine and realize on a rational level that people should be vaccinated.  Yet, they still like to romance those making the bad and dangerous decision not to get vaccinated as some sort of rebel or freedom fighter.

Since as a society our goal should be to maximize the number of vaccinated and we would like to do it without forcing people to do so, I am surprised so many are taking the very effective tool of peer pressure off the table

Rich

This isn

Quote from: Philosophers on July 23, 2021, 01:46:30 PM
I get really tired of the argument, "personal freedom and choice matters most."  We live in a society and as such, we need to follow logical rules to co-exist.  I hate what I call the affluent hippie Marin County argument anti-vaccination folks saying kids get too many vaccinations which they think is risky, yet they want them to interact with society.  Sorry they can't have it both ways.  If they want to be part of society, they need to get vaccinated.  If they don't want to get them vaccinated, then let them create their own self-isolated society.

Same with Anti-Covid vaccine folks.  We live in a shared society.  We need to work together to protect each other.  The numbers are so overwhelmingly clear that anti-vaccine folks are the vast, vast majority (something between 95% - 99%) of those getting Covid now and the highly risky Delta variant and causing these spikes.  Personal freedom?  Think the vaccine is risky yet you may drink alcohol, eat unhealthy food, smoke cigarettes yet those are ok?  Give me a break.  Get the damn shot and think of others before yourself.  Sorry to all for this rant.

Well said!!!   =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 01:37:12 PM
Bob

Agreed.  The vaccine our kids are given were not created in months.  They were created, Studied and approved after YEARS AND YEARS of development and testing. 

To start sticking out children with something we don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 01:41:45 PM
King

My deepest condolences for your loss.  It is why I do believe for those at the highest risk this vaccine that was developed in amazing time should be taken for those that want it.  I think it

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 01:52:07 PM
This vaccine has received more studies and resources (e.g. funding and lab allocation) than any before it, which is why scientist were able to drastically reduce the timeline.  Moreover, humans have been manufacturing vaccines since 1721; we have 300 years of experience battling mother-natures great equilibrium.

"The world was able to develop COVID-19 vaccines so quickly because of years of previous research on related viruses and faster ways to manufacture vaccines, enormous funding that allowed firms to run multiple trials in parallel, and regulators moving more quickly than normal" - Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts 

To perpetuate the myth this vaccine (and others) is dangerous is ignorant and counter-productive.  Again, we have 300 years of history of manufacturing and safely administrating vaccines.  It's also telling that education level is the single biggest factor in those choosing to get unvaccinated.  To date,  79% of U.S. adults with at least a bachelor

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 01:52:07 PM
This vaccine has received more studies and resources (e.g. funding and lab allocation) than any before it, which is why scientist were able to drastically reduce the timeline.  Moreover, humans have been manufacturing vaccines since 1721; we have 300 years of experience battling mother-natures great equilibrium.

"The world was able to develop COVID-19 vaccines so quickly because of years of previous research on related viruses and faster ways to manufacture vaccines, enormous funding that allowed firms to run multiple trials in parallel, and regulators moving more quickly than normal" - Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts 

To perpetuate the myth this vaccine (and others) is dangerous and counter-productive.  Again, we have 300 years of history of manufacturing and safely administrating vaccines.  It's also concerning that education level is the single biggest factor in those choosing to get unvaccinated.  To date,  79% of U.S. adults with at least a bachelor

Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 10:44:02 AM
Yeah although I don't think anyone is saying that non-vaxing should be illegal. So it's not quite the same thing.

And in abortion there are two bodies so its not quite the same thing.  Cuts both ways still. 

Quote from: PSUBeirut on July 23, 2021, 02:23:14 PM
Sorry, but this post by itself shows why we're in such a horrible mess.   Politics and partisanship should never have been a factor in this.   We should have pulled together as a country similar to how we came together after 9/11.   Donald Trump being elected (and not being a follower of facts nor a fan of science) and the hyper-partisanship that followed was EXACTLY the WORST environment for this pandemic to hit the US.   Especially during a friggin' election year.  Just an awful combination of events that has now cost over 600,000 US Lives.   Six.  Hundred.   Thousand. 

And the answer to your question is oh so simple- just follow the science.  Listen to the medical community, then follow their guidance and get your friends and family to do it also.  The politicians in office matter almost nil except to make things worse.

PSU

I agree partisanship should not have ANYTHING to do with this but it

Quote from: Painter on July 23, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
Once again, the original topic betrays us. It is indeed a reflection of what is so seriously wrong with our country which is that our notion of freedom has become pernicious. Much of it is a consequence of the politics of low self-esteem.

Certainly, there is no worse affliction for anyone to have to bear than low self-esteem. While it is obvious that racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and religious bigotry are rampant, they are all a reflection of the insecurities, and delusions of a nation which has for so long has shouted, "We're Number One", not hypocritically, but rather as a defense against the truth, and the disgrace we all share.

You can also throw in the self esteem of those who choose to ramp up how rampant racism, xenophobia, misogyny and religious bigotry as an easy way of dismissing their own level of involvement in their own failures.

That's not to say racism, xenophobia, misogyny and religious bigotry don't exist and they most certainly do have an impact on the most susceptible but most reasonably strong and confident people are capable of fending off the versions of these things we have here in America.  Unlike other countries, when you're gay, you don't get pitched blindfolded off of rooftops.  Unlike some other countries, women are not being denied education.  Is that the measure we need to compare ourselves to?  Of course not but should we then aspire to be like...what....Sweden?  An ethnically homogenous country if there ever was one?

We may not be '#1', but then again who is?

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 03:33:22 PM
This is an interesting, but utterly false narrative, that I see it being propagated recently.   While people didn't trust Donald Trump (with many good reasons most of his own doing), most of those same people trusted Doctor Fauci, because he was qualified, honest with the American people, and you could see that his motives were pure (a true man of science and medicine).   So there were no doubts in terms of the vaccine being safe with a majority of people who don't trust Donald Trump when the good doctor gave his blessing.  There were other trustworthy entities endorsing the vaccine as well plus there were countries that started vaccinating before the US.

It's sort of sad that Paul thinks most people lie (in answering his question) and that most people would only get vaccinated based on the President in the White House.  For me, this isn't a hypothetical question.   I got my first shot well before Trump left office.   Never was any doubt.   I follow the science, not the political BS.   I have said over and over again (yet it seems no one will listen) that politics has no business in science, medicine, and public health.   Politics = poison in those realms

Yet Cuomo Pelosi Shurmur Kamal and others were all down playing the vaccine and not trusting it prior to the election. Google it.  YouTube it.  It

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 03:44:08 PM
Yet Cuomo Pelosi Shurmur Kamal and others were all down playing the vaccine and not trusting it prior to the election. Google it.  YouTube it.  It

Quote from: kingm56 on July 23, 2021, 04:41:22 PM
Why do you care what our politicians think/say as it relates to medical science?  However, to answer your question, I don't believe they were down playing its effectiveness; instead, they were criticizing (playing politics) the management of producing and distributing it.  In short, they were trying to convince the American populace they were the party that could do it better and faster; any sensible American knows that's complete crap as Operation WARP SPEED was the catalyst for delivering the vaccine in record time.  Regardless, I stopped watching the main stream news years ago as their business model evolves around discontent.

King

I don

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 02:05:45 PM
Here is an honest question I know most here won

Quote from: Painter on July 23, 2021, 05:22:02 PM
Any suggestion that Trump did anything other than try to deny the existence of Covid in this country, then try to minimize it as something which would disappear in warm weather, then engage in a circus of absurd quick fixes, then repudiate  legitimate science in every way possible, while politicizing mask wearing, social distancing, quarantining, and his appalling conduct resulting in huge number of otherwise preventable death and debilitation is to participate in the mendacity and prevarication that has become his hallmark and legacy and has established his character and nature to be lower than that of whale xxxx which lies of the bottom of the ocean.

More proof name calling can

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 05:24:03 PM
More proof name calling can

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
So it's okay for you to call people names?   I have issues with both the left and the right but the pervasive do as I say not as I do hypocrisy of the right really rubs me the wrong way.

What name did I can anyone?  Please do tell.

And before you judge me how about you look at the messages I

Quote from: Slugs Narrows on July 23, 2021, 05:43:09 PM
What name did I can anyone?  Please do tell.

And before you judge me how about you look at the messages I

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 06:11:46 PM
"Unhinged", "intolerant", "ignorant", "drones", and so on


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Unhingered is name calling?

Being intolerant is name calling?

Stating what someone is doing as ignorant isn

Time to shut this down

Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 06:31:07 PM
Time to shut this down

It unbelievable how a handful of people who think their opinions are so important to be heard can move any topic into a political arena, name calling and disrespect. This is a Football Forum that was supposed to be founded on respect.


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