Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Painter on February 19, 2024, 03:45:18 PMWhether you view the thread as explanation or merely an excuse, as apparently you do, it does reflect an obvious and egregious lack of support for a Giants QB having to perform behind a grossly inadequate Oline for the almost all of the past dozen years. That is not to suggest that Daniel Jones has the skill and inherent ability to be a "winning" Quarterback because as frustrating as it may be his future capability is now upon us to be settled, finally

That is a fact which perhaps was made opaque last year by what may have been poor pre- and early season preparation by Brian Daboll & Co., and then certainly by Jones's injury. But it is now made crystal clear through the exigency of current and future costs.

As a Giants fan, I can only guess what is meant by reference to "winning culture" but where this team is concerned, I can't think of anyone who works harder in the interest of positive team culture than does Daniel Jones.

I'm sure it won't surprise anyone that I gave the originating thread a "like" in endorsing the proposal that the Giants give first and foremost priority to X- Receiver and the Oline in the Draft, if not also in FA.

Cheers!

No team has spent more on Oline than the Giants in the drafts in the past 5 or so years.

You can give all the excuses you want, when you are the 6th highest paid player in the NFL salary cap wise (ahead of Josh Allen) you need to elevate those around you, not have a perfect situation where you can play "normal" or ok.

I don't blame Jones for taking the outrageous deal he was offered, it lies on Scohen who should have at worst matched whatever offer someone gave him in FA. This deal alone should and may get him fired for incompetence.

The "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.

And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?

I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.

His #1 targets since he's been here?

*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring

Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:

Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 12:40:22 PMMighty,

This is an excellent stat, thank you for sharing.

I'd also add the competition DJ faced in the first 5 games was intense compared to Tyrod and Devito.

49ers - super bowl appearance
Cowboys - playoff team
Dolphins- playoff team
Seahawks- Tough team

That has to factor into also why he was pressured so much, going up against two of the top five defenses doesn't help.

Really good post, SDK; more to the point, you articulated your position well. However, last season you weren't interested in discussing the quality of the opponents, as a viable reason for DJs average/to above-average 2022 season; however, this season you view it as viable data point to explain DJ's poor performance?  To Eds point, summerly considering and disregarding data points based on a specific narrative usually leads to inaccurate observations. That's my only suggestion; just be consistent with the data you value.

I actually believe the quality of opponents matters and helps explain why DJ started strong in 2022 and poorly in 2023. To suggest it only impacted the latter and not the former compromises the poster's objectivity. 

While your overall point is extremely logical, as others have stated, it tends to view 2023 in a vacuum.  Next years QB class is incredibly weak; if the Giants fail to acquire a QB this season, we're unlikely to get one until 2026.  That's 2-to-3 years of more of the same...no thank you!  Also, your plan doesn't tangibly address the Defense, which also produced a bottom 5 performance and once again failed to stop the run. 

As far as DJ's 'protentional', that ship has sailed...it's been 60 games.  There's not a single example of a QB significantly improving after 60 games for the last four decades; yet, we continue to discuss it as a common occurrence.  If you believe the Giants terrible offense line ruined his career, so be it; I won't argue that point with you.  I tend to think he wasn't anything special to begin with.  We'll just agree to disagree on that point.

Again, excellent post, SDX.

Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMBad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.

Here's my issues with your perspective; the VERY same posters making this point today, we're predicting a double-digit win season just 6-months ago and discussing the potency of the Giant's offense.  However, to explain yet another poor season from DJ, everyone around DJ stinks again.  Do you see any issues with type of oscillation, as it relates to discussing DJ? 

Overall your point has merit; yes, a QB is dependent on the OL and skilled-players.  However, even without them, you can still see brilliance; in 60 games, I have never seen anything from DJ that led me to believe he's a top 10 QB. 

Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMThe "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.

And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?

I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.

His #1 targets since he's been here?

*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring

Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:

Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.

When did he show something? Are you referring to the 3200 yard year with a bottom 3rd offense.

The same skills Tyrod had no issue connecting with?

Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMThe "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.

And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?

I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.

His #1 targets since he's been here?

*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring

Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:

Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.

Nice post. The WR list adds a little context to the lack of supporting cast Jones has had.

king/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.

And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.

DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.

Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 05:36:22 PMking/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.

And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.

DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.

If you recall from last season, I had zero problem with DJ's contract as there were no other viable options; however, you seem to be missing a key aspect of said contract.  Specifically, the 2-year escape clause, which is completely antithetical to franchise QB deals.  Compare DJ's deal to Hurts, Jackson, Herbert, Barrow, Allen, or any other franchise deal within the last 2-seasons.  The fact is, the professional GM was obviously concerned about DJ's ability to function as a franchise QB; hence, the escape clause, which completely torpedo's your argument. In fact, you're proving the point.  It's because the clause the Giants can draft a QB this season.  Does that seem like the GM was confident in DJ's abilities? 

Finally, I believe most fans could do a better job than DG.  Do you?  It's hard to do worse; to that end, there are plenty of times when fans are smarter than GMs.  After all, what great cognitive ability or education does it take to be a GM?  This isn't theoretical physics...

Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 05:36:22 PMking/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.

And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.

DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.

"real football people"? WTF? So anyone who gets an absolutely horrible contract "deserves it" just because? Guess Deshaun Watson deserves that contract he has because "real football people" decided he did.. 

As usual it's everyone else's fault but Jones's whenever things go wrong. 

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 05:54:07 AMYour point is finding a multitude of excuses for why Jones didn't play like a competent decent QB? Tyrod outplayed him (barely) at a much less contract.

Jones is the 6th highest paid cap space player next season and has done absolutely nothing to even come close to his bonuses. What is your point?

The sooner we get rid of him, the sooner we get to a team with winning culture.

I dont think hes making a load of excuses

He stated he re-watched the first 6 games of the season ... he may have had a bias in his "research" I guess you can say. But what he may be saying may actually be true and I am actually pretty sure it is true the O-line was historically bad.  Also like he said Tyrod could not muster up a TD vs the Bills and essentially cost the game , and with the Commanders game I remember him started off very nicely but then faded rather quickly and the defense held on

Of those games DJ did face 3 top 5 defenses.

I am also ready to move on even as a DJ fan

BUT

I also do not believe in giving up the farm for a chance of the pick being a bust. Which is actually a high chance , #6 is really the most "awkward" position the Giants could have landed. Also what he said is true we can unload DJ after next season thankfully due to his contract. We are not going to get the top 34 QB's and yes you may be able to reach for McCarthy but WHY ?? If DJ truly is a bust we will end up as bad or worst next season maybe get a higher pick which we can then get a QB to ADD to the weapons we draft this season whether that be a WR , EDGE , DT idk

And yes I know the QB draft supposedly isnt as good. But that can always change in the flash of an eye and what difference does it really make if we are thinking about reaching for a QB anyways

Quote from: katkavage on February 19, 2024, 10:10:07 AMToo many excuses for too long. Jones if healthy will play this year, but a plan must be put in place for 2025 without him. Otherwise it will be Groundhog Day all over again.

Is it really an excuse ? Im pretty sure almost all of us agree this is a make or break season. It couldve been the end but Giants missed out on a top 5 pick

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 03:58:03 PMNo team has spent more on Oline than the Giants in the drafts in the past 5 or so years.

You can give all the excuses you want, when you are the 6th highest paid player in the NFL salary cap wise (ahead of Josh Allen) you need to elevate those around you, not have a perfect situation where you can play "normal" or ok.

I don't blame Jones for taking the outrageous deal he was offered, it lies on Scohen who should have at worst matched whatever offer someone gave him in FA. This deal alone should and may get him fired for incompetence.

Josh Allen is OBVIOUSLY a better QB then Jones

but lets be real here

Allen has had a higher turnover or riskier playmaking these last 2 seasons

If he were to play behind this O-line I could see someone like Allen having one of those 25td but 23 interceptions seasons

Quote from: killarich on February 19, 2024, 06:17:53 PMJosh Allen is OBVIOUSLY a better QB then Jones

but lets be real here

Allen has had a higher turnover or riskier playmaking these last 2 seasons

If he were to play behind this O-line I could see someone like Allen having one of those 25td but 23 interceptions seasons

maybe but we'd also have 8-9 wins guaranteed with Allen. How many 1 score games we lose this year?

Quote from: killarich on February 19, 2024, 06:10:47 PMI dont think hes making a load of excuses

He stated he re-watched the first 6 games of the season ... he may have had a bias in his "research" I guess you can say. But what he may be saying may actually be true and I am actually pretty sure it is true the O-line was historically bad.  Also like he said Tyrod could not muster up a TD vs the Bills and essentially cost the game , and with the Commanders game I remember him started off very nicely but then faded rather quickly and the defense held on

Of those games DJ did face 3 top 5 defenses.

I am also ready to move on even as a DJ fan

BUT

I also do not believe in giving up the farm for a chance of the pick being a bust. Which is actually a high chance , #6 is really the most "awkward" position the Giants could have landed. Also what he said is true we can unload DJ after next season thankfully due to his contract. We are not going to get the top 34 QB's and yes you may be able to reach for McCarthy but WHY ?? If DJ truly is a bust we will end up as bad or worst next season maybe get a higher pick which we can then get a QB to ADD to the weapons we draft this season whether that be a WR , EDGE , DT idk

And yes I know the QB draft supposedly isnt as good. But that can always change in the flash of an eye and what difference does it really make if we are thinking about reaching for a QB anyways

I would sell the farm to move up. By that I mean first and seconds both years to get Maye or Daniels. We get a QB we have them for 10+ years, and if Daboll finds someone he likes I trust it

The top qb next year may not even be the best qb of this class or close.. this is a once in a. Decade chance to finally right this ship

And no I hate JJ too

What was sick about that opening game against Dallas, was that there was all this hope and enthusiasm as the first drive of the game saw the Giants moving the ball with ease, driven off of Barkley and Jones legs. Third and two at the Dallas 8 yard line and then the Football gods smite the Giants. A false start and then a bad snap and it's time to bring on the FG Unit. And then the killer. A blocked punt returned for a TD.

I remember thinking, this season isn't going to go the way it did last year.