Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Sem on July 16, 2024, 10:07:07 AMMy schedule unexpectedly cleared up so I'm back for now.

That's interesting @LennG . A follow-up question if I may. As we all know major league baseball is a sport with never ending statistics. Per your explanation, in MLB if by chance a visiting team's batter did bat out of order, and the opposing team appeals, the batter is called out. So in this case how is the out recorded, a strikeout or a putout? If a putout, who get credited with the out? My question probably dives deep into the minutia of the rule book, but if they've made a rule for such a scenario then you can bet your bottom dollar they've followed it to its natural conclusion and accounted for all 27 outs, (in a 9 inning game for example).

Steve

That is a good question and usually not the umpire's concern. All we are concerned with are outs, the more the better.

If I had to make an uneducated guess I would give the out to the nearest defensive player, the catcher but that is all speculation.

 It's been a while, but we are hot and heavy into the baseball season and I'm sure there have been any number of 'weird' plays along the way.

Since I do not umpire in the summer months anymore, my own collection of plays that would like to be discussed is limited, but other friends do ask my opinion on certain things.

Yesterday, a fellow umpire asked me when is a batter out after he strikes out on a ball that touched the ground and doesn't immediately run to 1st base.

Is he out as soon as he leaves the batter's box> is he out when he enters the dugout? Can his teammates tell him to run to 1st when he is almost at the dugout?

Bases loaded with 2 out. bottom of the 9th. For memory's sake, let's say Willie Mays hits a grand slam HR into the left field stands in the old Polo grounds. The Giants were down by 3 and since Mays hits a grand slam, the Giants win, right? But the runner on 1st base missed 2nd and the defensive team was smart enough to appeal and the runner is called out. Who wins this game? Is it a tie now?

** Edit**

Two interesting questions Len, I'll take a stab.

The first question, I think the batter is ruled out as soon he leaves the batter's box, without making a move towards first base.

The second scenario is very interesting. Wild guess here. I would think the runners who were initially on second and third would be allowed to score. The runner from first would be called out as a result of the appeal. That would be the third out and Mays would not score. Giants lose by one.

**On second thought, I think it likely comes down to whether or not a HR (hit into the stands, as opposed to an inside the park HR), supersedes anything that might happen after it is ruled a HR. If so then Mays scores and the game is tied. If, in absolute terms, it does not supersede other action of the play, then my original answer, Giants lose by one.

first case i think you actually dont give yourself up till you enter dugout.
second case. im gonna say a tie because of ball going over fence. cant wait to see answer.

 In the first situation, Steve had it right on his initial response, as soon as the batter leaves the dirt area he is declared out. This is a change from years past (I'm not sure when this change was put into effect though). It used to be he was able to run to first as long as he didn't enter the dugout, but again, that has changed. The umpire will declare an out as soon as the batter leaves the dirt area around home plate.

In the second situation, Mays hit the HR BUT, the runner going from 1st to 2nd missed 2nd base, making it now a
force play when appealed. In order for the play to continue each runner must touch at least the base he is forced to touch. When they appeal 2nd base, the runner is declared out on a force play, and since that is the 3rd out, NO ONE scores.
 On any baseball play the runner has to touch the next base, like a ground ball out where a runner is forced out at 2nd base, for the 3rd out, no runs can score even if they scored before the force out was made. Am I making this too complicated?
Again, since the 3rd out was a force out and every runner had NOT touched the next base, it would be 3 outs and NO RUNS score, even though Mays hit the ball into the stands. The HR is nullified.

Now, say the runner from 1st hit second base and missed 3rd. If they appealed 3rd base and he was called out, only the runners who scored ahead of him would score, so in this particular case 2 runners scored ahead of him, the man who was on 3rd and the man who was on 2nd. They would be allowed to score and the Giants would have lost by 1. Again, because someone missed a base and was called out on appeal, Mays' HR would be voided.

Len, I had to read your answer to the second scenario 3 or 4 times before I was finally able to grasp it. Thanks for this one, it was a mindbender.

Quote from: Sem on July 29, 2024, 12:23:59 AMLen, I had to read your answer to the second scenario 3 or 4 times before I was finally able to grasp it. Thanks for this one, it was a mindbender.

 I was trying to explain in the easiest way. The thing to remember is that every runner MUST touch the next base before any runs can score. A force play, if it is the 3rd out, ends the inning, no matter what else has happened.

lenn i did a little research an according to high school rules it is still the dugout for desertion. ncaa an pros is the circle like you said. do you agree or am i reading dated stuff?

Quote from: GIANTS1 on July 29, 2024, 12:28:57 PMlenn i did a little research an according to high school rules it is still the dugout for desertion. ncaa an pros is the circle like you said. do you agree or am i reading dated stuff?

I'll have to relook at my HS rule book. You could be right, as HS (Federation) is still behind the times on many things.

So now we know about a Force Play and all the implications, so I'll give you a 'quirk' in that, that has caused several pretty decent arguments.

Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out. Batter hits a fly to right which is caught. Runner from 3rd tags up and scores. The runner who was on 1st thought the ball had dropped and took off. The defense sees this and throws to 1st before the runner gets back and is called out. According to the rule book, this is considered a force play. (Why, I have no idea, maybe because he doesn't have to be tagged).
Because this is considered a force play, does that run score?

Since we are talking force plays and appeals, let me run this by you. A VERY unusual situation and you can probably watch baseball for many years and not see it, BUT, what if????

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 out. Batter singles, both runners come in to score, BUT (and you knew there has to be a BUT) the first runner missed stepping on home plate and the 2nd runner did. Both men now go into the dugout but the catcher knowing that one runner missed home, appeals to the umpire on the 1st runner and he is called out on appeal. Does the runner who did touch home and scored, does his run count? (this was NOT a force play)

Since I have a few more, here is another

Doesn't matter the outs or if anyone is on. Batter bunts for a base hit, The ball is fielded and thrown to 1st but the batter slides into 1st base and beats the throw. BUT the momentum of his slide carries him over and beyond 1st base. The fielder seeing this now tags him. Is he out?

 One more in this same line. By now you should get this one.

Sometimes, in baseball, the umpire can recognize a 4th out.

Runners again, on 2nd and 3rd with 2 out. Let's use Mays again, who gets a hit and the runner from 2nd is thrown out at the plate for the 3rd out, but wait, Mays, seeing the throw go to the plate tried to take 2nd but missed 1st base and is called out on appeal. Does the runner, who scored from 3rd, count?

wow here are my guesses
1 run counts
2 no run
3 not out at first
4 no run cause of first base being missed.

Just saw these latest questions. If you give me until tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon I'll give it these a shot.