Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kartanoman on November 05, 2024, 08:12:10 AMBut they didn't fix the damned offensive line!!! They suckered us all on that one! They had us believe that Thomas was still good and now he's a broken-down salvage title!!!

How does an entire offense go down like dominoes when the left tackle goes down???

It has absolutely nothing to do with Nabers and Burns. Left Tackle is the issue!!!

Peace!!!

The line was perfectly fine before the injury bug said hello.

I imagine depth will be a priority to help mitigate this. But losing a top 3 player at their position is going to do that, it is what it is, it sucks but thats the league for you.

The offense wasnt good before it, so I am not sure what to say at that

They need a starting RG and backup swing T to be on their list this offseason. I would also try to extend JE a year or two if the price is right and he is willing, to give them time to find and/or groom someone younger.

Evan Neal at G should also be a consideration if he is going to take a roster spot up.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 08:35:48 AMIn 2022 when he took a QB with a very limited skillset and got him to play the best he has and won a playoff game, I didn't hear nary a peep from anyone about how bad a coach Daboll was. That was the very definition of making something out of very little. And now because he can't do it again, he's less of a coach?

There are things I wish he would do differently but I'm still in his corner. I accept your position, I just don't share it.

You know what I find funny is people who think Jones is limited. A limited QB doesn't complete 65% of his passes. He doesn't run for 500 yards. This guy threw 23 TD in 12 games as a rookie.
Right now Daboll is the HC/OC he calls the plays he doesn't have a game plan no adjustments. The Giants hired the wrong Brian. Daboll hasn't been good since the first 7-8 games to start of his Giants career.
This team has struggled to score points it's an on going thing with Daboll. You call Jones limited just maybe the coach is as limited if not more. He kicks out the defensive coordinator that kept this team in games all last year with a crappy offense surrounded by terrible offensive line. This is an indictment on the GM and HC.

Quote from: Giantleap56 on November 05, 2024, 11:35:50 AMYou know what I find funny is people who think Jones is limited. A limited QB doesn't complete 65% of his passes. He doesn't run for 500 yards. This guy threw 23 TD in 12 games as a rookie.
Right now Daboll is the HC/OC he calls the plays he doesn't have a game plan no adjustments. The Giants hired the wrong Brian. Daboll hasn't been good since the first 7-8 games to start of his Giants career.
This team has struggled to score points it's an on going thing with Daboll. You call Jones limited just maybe the coach is as limited if not more. He kicks out the defensive coordinator that kept this team in games all last year with a crappy offense surrounded by terrible offensive line. This is an indictment on the GM and HC.

That was an eternity ago.

Jones is on his third coach. If you had your way, he'd be on his fourth. And his numbers and performance wouldn't change. He is what he is.

It's telling that you cite Daboll's career going back to Buffalo and say he's never really been good. But the same logic doesn't apply to Jones. To paraphrase the late Denny Green: He is who we thought he was... and we signed him anyway.

Yards/completion

214 QBs on the list and guess who is dead last?  I see that as pointing to a limitation.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_cmp_career.htm

Quote from: Giantleap56 on November 05, 2024, 11:35:50 AMYou know what I find funny is people who think Jones is limited. A limited QB doesn't complete 65% of his passes. He doesn't run for 500 yards. This guy threw 23 TD in 12 games as a rookie.
Right now Daboll is the HC/OC he calls the plays he doesn't have a game plan no adjustments. The Giants hired the wrong Brian. Daboll hasn't been good since the first 7-8 games to start of his Giants career.
This team has struggled to score points it's an on going thing with Daboll. You call Jones limited just maybe the coach is as limited if not more. He kicks out the defensive coordinator that kept this team in games all last year with a crappy offense surrounded by terrible offensive line. This is an indictment on the GM and HC.

I will also add, playing QB is more than the physical aspect of throwing the ball. It's his lack of vision and mental processing that undermine his physical skills.

Quote from: AYM on November 05, 2024, 08:30:19 AMWe'd be a lot better off if the team had correctly evaluated that and not pretended we were now Superbowl contenders.

I agree.  I give the 2022 Coach of the Year award very little credence.  It was largely due some very lucky bounces.  Most importantly he has not shown any quality the last two years.  In both of them he failed to prepare the team to compere in training camp. 

And he has largely abdicated his HC responsibilities by taking over OC responsibilities.  If you are going to do that you have to validate it with success, or at least improvement.  Is the offense any better than it was last year with Kafka calling plays?  Points per game is virtually the same as last year and is dead last in the league.

So my souring on Daboll is not just based on the bad record, it is based on specific defined failures.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 08:35:48 AMIn 2022 when he took a QB with a very limited skillset and got him to play the best he has and won a playoff game, I didn't hear nary a peep from anyone about how bad a coach Daboll was. That was the very definition of making something out of very little. And now because he can't do it again, he's less of a coach?

There are things I wish he would do differently but I'm still in his corner. I accept your position, I just don't share it.

2022 was largely smoke and mirrors and a series of lucky breaks that made him seem better than he was.  I would suggest that last year and this year are more representative of his quality. 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 12:59:09 PM2022 was largely smoke and mirrors and a series of lucky breaks that made him seem better than he was.  I would suggest that last year and this year are more representative of his quality. 

I don't attribute the lucky breaks to anything other than luck and good fortune.

IMO, the smoke and mirrors was the short passing game and limiting his mistakes.

I just hope he gets a QB who is willing to throw downfiled regularly and has a short memory when it comes to bad passes. Someone who has good field vision and doesn't bail on a play because his first read isn't there.

 

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 11:48:30 AMThat was an eternity ago.

Jones is on his third coach. If you had your way, he'd be on his fourth. And his numbers and performance wouldn't change. He is what he is.

It's telling that you cite Daboll's career going back to Buffalo and say he's never really been good. But the same logic doesn't apply to Jones. To paraphrase the late Denny Green: He is who we thought he was... and we signed him anyway.

Jones being mediocre doesn't make Daboll good.  Daboll is supposed to be a QB guru yet Jones has regressed under his tutelege.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 01:13:47 PMJones being mediocre doesn't make Daboll good.  Daboll is supposed to be a QB guru yet Jones has regressed under his tutelege.

Jones being mediocre doesn't make Daboll bad.

Jones is supposed to be smart and intelligent but makes poor football decisions or is very indecisive.

Get Daboll a new QB and we'll see if it's the student or the teacher.

BTW, Daboll has had success with other QBs. Jones hasn't had success with his two previous coaches.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 01:09:11 PMI don't attribute the lucky breaks to anything other than luck and good fortune.

IMO, the smoke and mirrors was the short passing game and limiting his mistakes.

I just hope he gets a QB who is willing to throw downfiled regularly and has a short memory when it comes to bad passes. Someone who has good field vision and doesn't bail on a play because his first read isn't there.

When I say smoke and mirrors that's not what I'm talking about.  As I recall we won a game because our kicker made a game winning 56 yard FG, and won another when Lamar Jackson fumbled the snap badly, recovered it 17 yards behind the LOS and then instead of throwing out of bound threw an interception.  Not to mention a foolish decision that worked out well when he risked losing the first game by going for a 2-pt conversion when an axtra pt. would have tied the game.  I had a buddy in college who was a bad hearts player who, when a bad play worked out and we explained why it was a bad play used to say, "it worked, so it was right".  I put that decision in that category.  And none of this is hindsight, I was questioning the legitimacy of the Giants' quality throughout that season.

Now, even ignoring the conversion decision, losing either of the other two games I cited would have meant no playoffs, no COY and nobody would be giving him a free pass for 2023/2024.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 01:34:53 PMWhen I say smoke and mirrors that's not what I'm talking about.  As I recall we won a game because our kicker made a game winning 56 yard FG, and won another when Lamar Jackson fumbled the snap badly, recovered it 17 yards behind the LOS and then instead of throwing out of bound threw an interception.  Not to mention a foolish decision that worked out well when he risked losing the first game by going for a 2-pt conversion when an axtra pt. would have tied the game.  I had a buddy in college who was a bad hearts player who, when a bad play worked out and we explained why it was a bad play used to say, "it worked, so it was right".  I put that decision in that category.  And none of this is hindsight, I was questioning the legitimacy of the Giants' quality throughout that season.

Now, even ignoring the conversion decision, losing either of the other two games I cited would have meant no playoffs, no COY and nobody would be giving him a free pass for 2023/2024.

OK - so I get where you're coming from.

For me, those scenarios are a part of football. I also don't use those outcomes to evaluate/grade how good or bad a coach is. He's responsible for the end product and had a heavy influence on the offense. And, if I recall correctly, it was his insistence on Wink changing up his defensive approach that resulted in the takeaways improving toward the end of the season. The offensive game plans were adjusted to minimize his QBs mistakes and improve his efficiency. That's coaching. He did something the previous two coaches couldn't do.

Quote from: T200 on November 05, 2024, 01:51:15 PMOK - so I get where you're coming from.

For me, those scenarios are a part of football. I also don't use those outcomes to evaluate/grade how good or bad a coach is. He's responsible for the end product and had a heavy influence on the offense. And, if I recall correctly, it was his insistence on Wink changing up his defensive approach that resulted in the takeaways improving toward the end of the season. The offensive game plans were adjusted to minimize his QBs mistakes and improve his efficiency. That's coaching. He did something the previous two coaches couldn't do.

I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree, but I'll add a couple of points.  His predecessors did a fair amount in reducing Jones' turnovers.  One could argue that in the course of reducing his INTs they coached out the dynanamism he flashed as a rookie, but I blame most of that on his prior coaches.  And yes he helped cut down Jones' Ints a great deal, down to 5, in 2022, but it didn't stick since he had 6 in his very shortened 2023, and 5 already this season.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 02:25:36 PMI think we'll end up agreeing to disagree, but I'll add a couple of points.  His predecessors did a fair amount in reducing Jones' turnovers.  One could argue that in the course of reducing his INTs they coached out the dynanamism he flashed as a rookie, but I blame most of that on his prior coaches.  And yes he helped cut down Jones' Ints a great deal, down to 5, in 2022, but it didn't stick since he had 6 in his very shortened 2023, and 5 already this season.

You brought up good points, no doubt. I would really like to see Daboll get his shot with his own guy. If he fails with him, then I will have seen enough. I also hope he gives up OC duties to someone else next year. That's already a fail in my eyes.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 05, 2024, 01:13:47 PMJones being mediocre doesn't make Daboll good.  Daboll is supposed to be a QB guru yet Jones has regressed under his tutelege.

Genuine question, would a QB Guru, be able to make anyone great? Or should the QB at the very least, have a certain amount of talent and untapped potential for said guru to mold and tap into that potential?