Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 10:41:01 AMTim,

I guess we differ.  I want a head coach who consistently takes the talent he has and produces more wins than they should, like Tom Coughlin for many seasons.   I don't want a coach who you need to defend with, "he hasn't been an abject failure across the board".   I don't think that is the sort of coach that will produce the results we all want.  I can appreciate that you see things differently, but that's how I see it.

When you, in your support of Jones, mentioned he lacked proper blocking and a true #1 receiver, I acknowledged that and held out hope for Jones. When his three pillars of support were upgraded (coaching, blocking, receivers) and he still couldn't produce, you failed to acknowledge that he's not what you thought and that Jones simply can't produce the results we all want. Instead, you turned your sights to coaching and the GM. I acknowledged that Jones needed support in the areas you mentioned. And when he got them, he couldn't produce. One of your primary defenses of Jones is that we can't properly evaluate him without proper NFL-level support.

Yet, with Daboll, you won't acknowledge that an offensive coordinator needs a PROPER NFL QB to run a PROPER NFL OFFENSE. You talk him down and minimize what he did with Jones and you're ready to dump him without him having a full three seasons but your support of Jones hasn't wavered even with his release.

So, with no give and take in this back and forth, I am officially done. I can't continue to do this with you when you aren't willing to be open.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 10:53:10 AMWhen you, in your support of Jones, mentioned he lacked proper blocking and a true #1 receiver, I acknowledged that and held out hope for Jones. When his three pillars of support were upgraded (coaching, blocking, receivers) and he still couldn't produce, you failed to acknowledge that he's not what you thought and that Jones simply can't produce the results we all want. Instead, you turned your sights to coaching and the GM. I acknowledged that Jones needed support in the areas you mentioned. And when he got them, he couldn't produce. One of your primary defenses of Jones is that we can't properly evaluate him without proper NFL-level support.

Yet, with Daboll, you won't acknowledge that an offensive coordinator needs a PROPER NFL QB to run a PROPER NFL OFFENSE. You talk him down and minimize what he did with Jones and you're ready to dump him without him having a full three seasons but your support of Jones hasn't wavered even with his release.

So, with no give and take in this back and forth, I am officially done. I can't continue to do this with you when you aren't willing to be open.

Tim,

I am not sure (and we certainly haven't witnessed it with either DeVito or Lock) that his support pillars are as good as advertised this season.

PFF has the pass blocking as 26th and receiving as 30th.  On top of that there is been quite a bit of criticism of Daboll's play calling and coaching.  So did DJ really get what you are suggesting?

That said, I agree it's time to move on from Daniel Jones.  Daniel Jones has either lost faith in his support or lost all confidence.  He looks like a QB who is seeing ghosts and doesn't trust what he is seeing or his protection/receivers or both.

As for the comparison between Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll, I don't believe that is a good one.   Brian Daboll is a manager, he has far more control over the factors that impact his job.  In fact, considering his close friendship with Joe Schoen, I suspect he has more control over his fate than most NFL head coaches.

On the other side of the comparison, you have Daniel Jones, a worker bee.   Jones has no say over the scheme, coaching, protection, or receivers he has to work with.

So, while it makes sense to account for the impact of the three pillars on a QB's performance, it makes less sense to apply those same standards to the man in charge.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 11:00:21 AMTim,

I am not sure (and we certainly haven't witnessed it with either DeVito or Lock) that his support pillars are as good as advertised this season.

PFF has the pass blocking as 26th and receiving as 30th.  On top of that there is been quite a bit of criticism of Daboll's play calling and coaching.  So did DJ really get what you are suggesting?

That said, I agree it's time to move on from Daniel Jones.  Daniel Jones has either lost faith in his support or lost all confidence.  He looks like a QB who is seeing ghosts and doesn't trust what he is seeing or his protection/receivers or both.

As for the comparison between Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll, I don't believe that is a good one.   Brian Daboll is a manager, he has far more control over the factors that impact his job.  In fact, considering his close friendship with Joe Schoen, I suspect he has more control over his fate than most NFL head coaches.

On the other side of the comparison, you have Daniel Jones, a worker bee.   Jones has no say over the scheme, coaching, protection, or receivers he has to work with.

So, while it makes sense to account for the impact of the three pillars on a QB's performance, it makes less sense to apply those same standards to the man in charge.

Who exactly is claiming that Lock or DeVito were any good and expected some miracle turnaround?  When Lock was signed the consensus attitude was, "Jones gets hurt, we are screwed."  You are the only person who seems to think that Lock and DeVito being awful somehow exonerates Jones's terrible play.

Quote from: coggs on December 02, 2024, 11:02:59 AMWho exactly is claiming that Lock or DeVito were any good and expected some miracle turnaround?  When Lock was signed the consensus attitude was, "Jones gets hurt, we are screwed."  You are the only person who seems to think that Lock and DeVito being awful somehow exonerates Jones's terrible play.

Lock had a track record outside of the Giants.  I don't think to date he has demonstrated that he is even playing as well as previously seen.

I will concede that DeVito doesn't have a baseline outside of NYG.  Although he didn't look as good this season as he did last season.  Hell, the protection was so bad that he didn't last more than the game before injuries sidelined him.

QuoteWhen Lock was signed the consensus attitude was, "Jones gets hurt, we are screwed."

I don't recall that, I recall a debate about if Lock was going to compete with Jones for the starting job, though.

QuoteYou are the only person who seems to think that Lock and DeVito being awful somehow exonerates Jones's terrible play.

That is a very misleading claim.  You literally took ONE sentence out of an entire multi-sentence point, and the particular sentences were just weaker supporting evidence to suggest somehow I must be wrong.  How about addressing the main points that DJ's support was not as good as advertised, and I concede that it was time for DJ to go????

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 11:08:38 AMLock had a track record outside of the Giants.  I don't think to date he has demonstrated that he is even playing as well as previously seen.

I will concede that DeVito doesn't have a baseline outside of NYG.  Although he didn't look as good this season as he did last season.  Hell, the protection was so bad that he didn't last more than the game before injuries sidelined him.


I don't recall that, I recall a debate about if Lock was going to compete with Jones for the starting job, though.

That is a very misleading claim.  You literally took ONE sentence out of an entire multi-sentence point, and the particular sentences were just weaker supporting evidence to suggest somehow I must be wrong.  How about addressing the main points that DJ's support was not as good as advertised, and I concede that it was time for DJ to go????

Yes, he had a track record.  A very poor one.  Hence why people had the attitude that Jones better not get hurt.  Well, those of us who thought Jones could be a decent QB.  I will conceded that many were already done with Jones, and did not have that attitude,

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 11:08:38 AMLock had a track record outside of the Giants.  I don't think to date he has demonstrated that he is even playing as well as previously seen.

I will concede that DeVito doesn't have a baseline outside of NYG.  Although he didn't look as good this season as he did last season.  Hell, the protection was so bad that he didn't last more than the game before injuries sidelined him.


I don't recall that, I recall a debate about if Lock was going to compete with Jones for the starting job, though.

That is a very misleading claim.  You literally took ONE sentence out of an entire multi-sentence point, and the particular sentences were just weaker supporting evidence to suggest somehow I must be wrong.  How about addressing the main points that DJ's support was not as good as advertised, and I concede that it was time for DJ to go????

Just a little hyperbole, right? Not so cool when it's done to you, eh?

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 11:17:32 AMJust a little hyperbole, right? Not so cool when it's done to you, eh?

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 11:19:34 AM

Nice clip.

I know what it means. The same way tried to dismiss your misleading claim as 'hyperbole' is what I copied. Hence the, "not so cool when it's done to you."

And we're back to the intellectual dishonesty.

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 11:31:03 AMNice clip.

I know what it means. The same way tried to dismiss your misleading claim as 'hyperbole' is what I copied. Hence the, "not so cool when it's done to you."

And we're back to the intellectual dishonesty.

Taking a single point out of context is not the same as exaggeration.   So maybe you might want to practice what you preach 

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 02, 2024, 11:32:55 AMTaking a single point out of context is not the same as exaggeration.   So maybe you might want to practice what you preach 

Sorry you missed the irony. 

Quote from: T200 on December 02, 2024, 11:34:10 AMSorry you missed the irony. 

Is that what you are calling it?