Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on December 24, 2024, 12:49:03 PMI know I've said this a bazillion times already: Schoen and Daboll had to show Mara, the only person who wanted Jones and had the influence to make it happen, that Jones was not the answer.

Benching Jones too early would not have proven it. Bringing in a better backup would not have proven it. Jones needed to play and leave no doubt that this team was doomed with him at QB.

I do not disagree with you on Daboll's questionable calls and prep.

I will stand on this: put a better QB on this exact roster in place of Jones at the beginning of the season and I guarantee the record isn't 2-13.

The first part of your post is pure speculation. You don't know that, and neither does anyone else.

The last part is silly. Having Jones as QB doesn't explain a 2-13 record. I'm afraid you have an overly simplistic analysis of this team.m

Quote from: Philosophers on December 24, 2024, 03:07:39 PMChargers were 5-12 last year with Justin Herbert

Because they had no head coach. Now they do.

Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:57:25 AMBecause they had no head coach. Now they do.

That's my point.  Great QB is not a panacea to an automatic good play.  Harbaugh had to fix other things.

Can you imagine the pressure Daboll would be under if he returns next year if he doesn't win games right away. Not to mention trying to hire anyone of quality for his staff knowing he is on such a hot seat. If he comes back it's a recipe for disaster in so many ways, but what it really does is postpone the inevitable and push the transition back another year.

Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:54:37 AMThe first part of your post is pure speculation. You don't know that, and neither does anyone else.

The last part is silly. Having Jones as QB doesn't explain a 2-13 record. I'm afraid you have an overly simplistic analysis of this team.m

Of course it's speculation. I've never suggested that I know more than anyone else here. Looking at how things transpired, that's the most likely scenario that I could envision. While I'm OK with people who don't agree with it, I definitely don't think it's far-fetched either.

Last, I don't have anything overly simplistic view of the team. That's *your* view of my analysis... please don't attribute it to me. Own it.

I've said numerous times that it's more nuanced than that and have laid out exactly how the lack lack of a QB affects the entire team, not just the offense. To suggest that I'm blaming the 2-13 record on Jones is not discussing this in good faith.

For the record, I have no loyalty or allegiance to Schoen and Daboll. My views are based on what I would do if I was in Mara's position and what little I know of football. As much as I want both of them back, I don't dismiss other points of view that want them gone. There's good reasons on both sides, IMHO.

Quote from: T200 on December 23, 2024, 08:38:42 PMIsn't that usually how it goes?

Do you think they'd be as successful with Daniel Jones instead of the QBs they had?

Nah! Blame it on the kicker, um, all the kickers, for all the missed game winners, and pay no attention to those blocked kicks; we're blaming those on the kickers as well!

So there!

Peace!

There's a reason it's called a team sport.

QB
ORT
G
WR - stud opposite Nabers
DT
CB1
RB to pair with Tracy

Quote from: kartanoman on December 25, 2024, 05:56:24 PMNah! Blame it on the kicker, um, all the kickers, for all the missed game winners, and pay no attention to those blocked kicks; we're blaming those on the kickers as well!

So there!

Peace!

For sure! No one is exempt from criticism and blame! 

Quote from: katkavage on December 23, 2024, 06:02:30 PMYou have no clue who might turn into a good coach or not. How many predicted young Sean McVay would turn out to be one of the best HCs in the NFL? Or John Harbaugh when he was hired. Hire the right guy. Do your research. The Giants blew it three years ago when they hired Daboll over Flores. Time to get it right.

Is this the same Sean McVay who, in his one full season without a Pro Bowl or All-Pro QB, managed a 5-12 record? His team also went 2-6 during that season with John Wolford, Bryce Perkins, and Baker Mayfield starting games. Aside from 2022, McVay has consistently had the benefit of a healthy Pro Bowl and/or All-Pro quarterback for the vast majority of each season.  Without one, he looks a lot like Brian Daboll....

Quote from: BlueMoshik on December 25, 2024, 03:57:25 AMBecause they had no head coach. Now they do.

@Philosophers

The facts directly dispute your points.  The facts are, Bob Staley, who I acknowledge is a terrible coach, produced the following records:

2022   10-7-0   2nd -- AFC West      0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs
2021   9-8-0   3rd -- AFC West

In 2023, Justin Herbert was injured in Week 10, missing the remainder of the season, and the team went 0-5 with Easton Stick as their quarterback.

Jim Harbaugh, despite having more talent, is on pace to match the same record Brandon Staley achieved just two years ago.  The common dominator seems to be a healthy Herbert...

The examples you've provided actually undermine your argument. They clearly demonstrate that a team's success is heavily dependent on the quality of its quarterback rather than its head coach. A subpar coach with a top-10 quarterback can still achieve double-digit wins. However, the reverse—a great coach succeeding without a quality QB—is FAR less common.  Just ask Bill B....

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 11:30:51 AMIs this the same Sean McVay who, in his one full season without a Pro Bowl or All-Pro QB, managed a 5-12 record? His team also went 2-6 during that season with John Wolford, Bryce Perkins, and Baker Mayfield starting games. Aside from 2022, McVay has consistently had the benefit of a healthy Pro Bowl and/or All-Pro quarterback for the vast majority of each season.  Without one, he looks a lot like Brian Daboll....

@Philosophers

The facts directly dispute your points.  The facts are, Bob Staley, who I acknowledge is a terrible coach, produced the following records:

2022   10-7-0   2nd -- AFC West      0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs
2021   9-8-0   3rd -- AFC West

In 2023, Justin Herbert was injured in Week 10, missing the remainder of the season, and the team went 0-5 with Easton Stick as their quarterback.

Jim Harbaugh, despite having more talent, is on pace to match the same record Brandon Staley achieved just two years ago.  The common dominator seems to be a healthy Herbert...

The examples you've provided actually undermine your argument. They clearly demonstrate that a team's success is heavily dependent on the quality of its quarterback rather than its head coach. A subpar coach with a top-10 quarterback can still achieve double-digit wins. However, the reverse—a great coach succeeding without a quality QB—is FAR less common.  Just ask Bill B....

I only used 2023 to make my point if memory serves.  In 2023, Justin Herbert played and started in 13 games and his record over those 13 games was 5-8.  Now with Harbaugh, the Chargers record is 9-6 with more wins possible.

I agree with you QB matters more than a HC however a good coach can fix other things that a QB cannot which can result in other wins such as improving a D, special teams, running say a more balanced run-pass ratio that aids in play action effectiveness.

Quote from: Philosophers on Today at 11:41:07 AMI only used 2023 to make my point if memory serves.  In 2023, Justin Herbert played and started in 13 games and his record over those 13 games was 5-8.  Now with Harbaugh, the Chargers record is 9-6 with more wins possible.

I agree with you QB matters more than a HC however a good coach can fix other things that a QB cannot which can result in other wins such as improving a D, special teams, running say a more balanced run-pass ratio that aids in play action effectiveness.

Joe,

First, Happy Holidays!

I don't believe you can summarily dismiss the Chargers' performances in 2022 and 2021. Harbaugh, with more talent, is fundamentally producing the same results.

As for @BlueMoshik's claim that Harbaugh was the key difference in the Chargers' positive season, the evidence simply doesn't support that narrative. The Chargers, even under a head coach many would consider subpar, managed to achieve back-to-back successful seasons. This strongly suggests that the real driving force behind their success is the consistent presence of a top-10 quarterback. In short, the QB's talent and playmaking ability appear to be the common denominator, not the head coach. 

This pattern underscores a broader point: while coaching can influence outcomes, it's ultimately the elite talent at quarterback that anchors a team's success. Overlooking this key factor risks attributing too much credit to coaching while downplaying the role of top-tier players in driving positive results.  Again, I NEVER viewed Daboll as a top-tier coach; yet, I absolutely acknowledge @T200 point...he's never had a QB better than the bottom 1/3 to work with...

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 11:51:29 AMJoe,

First, Happy Holidays!

I don't believe you can summarily dismiss the Chargers' performances in 2022 and 2021. Harbaugh, with more talent, is fundamentally producing the same results.

As for @BlueMoshik's claim that Harbaugh was the key difference in the Chargers' positive season, the evidence simply doesn't support that narrative. The Chargers, even under a head coach many would consider subpar, managed to achieve back-to-back successful seasons. This strongly suggests that the real driving force behind their success is the consistent presence of a top-10 quarterback. In short, the QB's talent and playmaking ability appear to be the common denominator, not the head coach. 

This pattern underscores a broader point: while coaching can influence outcomes, it's ultimately the elite talent at quarterback that anchors a team's success. Overlooking this key factor risks attributing too much credit to coaching while downplaying the role of top-tier players in driving positive results.  Again, I NEVER viewed Daboll as a top-tier coach; yet, I absolutely acknowledge @T200 point...he's never had a QB better than the bottom 1/3 to work with...

Matt - Happy Holidays also to you my friend.

In 4 years prior to Harbaugh, Herbert's record as a starter was 30-32.  Fans who knew the team a lot better than both of us were very critical that Herbert's skills were not being maximized.  Think that record proves it.  Herbert's TDs declined from 38 to 25 from one season to the next.

Harbaugh said the best way to help Herbert is with a robust running game and a better D.  I think he's achieving that, but more importantly the team may now be better positioned for a long term run. 

Joe,

The primary problem with the Chargers in recent years has undeniably been their defense, as reflected in their NFL rankings:

2023: Ranked 28th in the NFL

2022: Ranked 21st in the NFL

2021: Ranked 29th in the NFL

2020: Ranked 23rd in the NFL

To address these persistent struggles, the Chargers implemented significant changes to their defensive roster for 2024. They turned over approximately 60% of their aggregate defensive roster, replacing their entire interior defensive line and all but one member of their back seven (Asante Samuel Jr.). This overhaul has yielded noticeable improvements.

One of the most impactful factors has been the return to health of Joey Bosa, who is finally playing a full season after battling injuries. Bosa started only 4 games in 2022 and 5 games in 2023, severely limiting the team's pass-rushing capabilities during those years.

To illustrate my point, take a look at the start difference in rosters:

2023 Defensive Starters:

Defensive Line: Sebastian Joseph-Day, Austin Johnson, Morgan Fox

Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack

Linebackers: Drue Tranquill, Kenneth Murray Jr.

Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Michael Davis

Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Nasir Adderley

2024 Defensive Starters:

Defensive Line: Morgan Fox, Poona Ford, Otito Ogbonnia

Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack

Linebackers: Denzel Perryman, Daiyan Henley

Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Tarheeb Still

Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Tony Jefferson

2024 Defensive Performance

The revamped defense has seen a dramatic turnaround:

Ranked 14th in the NFL in total yards allowed.

Ranked 1st in the NFL in points allowed.

This improvement underscores the effectiveness of the roster changes; hopefully, the same will be true for our Giants.

The Bengals are experiencing a similar paradigm this season, where their defense ranks 28th in PA and 27th in Yards Allowed.  Does their poor record suggest the team failures are a result of Zac Taylor's preperformance?  Should the Bengals bring in a new coach to correct the ship?  I think we can both agree thier poor performance is the result of limited talent on defense, akin to the Chargers...

Interesting GM idea.....Will McClay...currently Vice President of Player Personnel for the Dallas Cowboys. We could add Mike Vrabel as Head Coach, but I was thinking we could give a black eye to the NFC East by taking Kliff Kingsbury as their next head coach?

Dallas Cowboys: Will McClay, in his 21st season working in the Cowboys Personnel Department, was named the club's assistant director of player personnel in 2013 and senior director of pro/college scouting in 2015. He was named Vice President Player Personnel in 2017, and he will continue to oversee the club's NFL Draft process and play a key role in free agent and trade acquisitions.


Commanders OC Kliff Kingsbury:  has done an excellent job developing the rookie first-round pick and allowing him to find such quick and immediate success.

Throughout his coaching career, Kingsbury has been credited with the development of numerous star quarterbacks. He was the head coach of Texas Tech University during Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes's tenure at the organization. Texas Tech has him listed as "KINGSBURY, THE QUARTERBACK GURU" on their official website:



https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-giants/could-giants-steal-quarterback-guru-from-division-rival-as-next-head-coach/




https://www.dallascowboys.com/team/front-office-roster/will-mcclay

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 12:47:47 PMJoe,

The primary problem with the Chargers in recent years has undeniably been their defense, as reflected in their NFL rankings:

2023: Ranked 28th in the NFL

2022: Ranked 21st in the NFL

2021: Ranked 29th in the NFL

2020: Ranked 23rd in the NFL

To address these persistent struggles, the Chargers implemented significant changes to their defensive roster for 2024. They turned over approximately 60% of their aggregate defensive roster, replacing their entire interior defensive line and all but one member of their back seven (Asante Samuel Jr.). This overhaul has yielded noticeable improvements.

One of the most impactful factors has been the return to health of Joey Bosa, who is finally playing a full season after battling injuries. Bosa started only 4 games in 2022 and 5 games in 2023, severely limiting the team's pass-rushing capabilities during those years.

To illustrate my point, take a look at the start difference in rosters:

2023 Defensive Starters:

Defensive Line: Sebastian Joseph-Day, Austin Johnson, Morgan Fox

Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack

Linebackers: Drue Tranquill, Kenneth Murray Jr.

Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Michael Davis

Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Nasir Adderley

2024 Defensive Starters:

Defensive Line: Morgan Fox, Poona Ford, Otito Ogbonnia

Edge Rushers: Joey Bosa, Khalil Mack

Linebackers: Denzel Perryman, Daiyan Henley

Cornerbacks: Asante Samuel Jr., Tarheeb Still

Safeties: Derwin James Jr., Tony Jefferson

2024 Defensive Performance

The revamped defense has seen a dramatic turnaround:

Ranked 14th in the NFL in total yards allowed.

Ranked 1st in the NFL in points allowed.

This improvement underscores the effectiveness of the roster changes; hopefully, the same will be true for our Giants.

The Bengals are experiencing a similar paradigm this season, where their defense ranks 28th in PA and 27th in Yards Allowed.  Does their poor record suggest the team failures are a result of Zac Taylor's preperformance?  Should the Bengals bring in a new coach to correct the ship?  I think we can both agree thier poor performance is the result of limited talent on defense, akin to the Chargers...

So many new defensive players and great defensive coaches to teach them a new scheme and coverages and also to teach him how to play it at a high level.

Also the turnover meant coaches had to decide which players to take and which not to take.  That's solid talent acquisition.