NFT--Zimmerman and Martin

[LennG]

As Ed has alluded to, we are trying out some NFT topics to get a feel for how they might be received, and maybe to start a new forum for them. Unlike the old Back Porch, this will be for topics that people would like to discuss, even debate, but in an intelligent way, and NO  references to politics allowed. This is a very slow time in the NFL, so we thought let's try out a few topics and see how they fly.

One of the topics I would like other opinions on, because there are many on this one is the George Zimmerman shooting of Trayvon Martin. I know we all have heard this case and we all must have opinions on it.
For starters, was George Zimmerman right in what he did?
Did he deserve the punishment, criticism and media blackballing,  he has received?
What does one think of the Florida Law of standing your ground no matter what?.

I have a good friend who is a criminal attorney. We talked about this case and he feels the prosecution will have a very hard time convicting Zimmerman of any sort of murder charge. He explained the Florida stand your ground law to me, compared to a state like NY. In NY, if you feel your life in danger and have the chance to run away, you MUST run away. If there is no other option and you cannot run, then you have the right to shoot. Like if some one broke into your house, you cannot run from that. But Florida is different, and Zimmerman had the chance to leave, but they do not require that, so he stood his ground and killed another man.
Does that make him a killer??

Evidence now seems to point to Zimmerman was telling the truth that Martin was assaulting him, beating him up, on top of him when he fired his gun and killed him. That part seems pretty clear. But the police said Zimmerman should never have gotten out of his car and confronted Martin.

So what's the verdict???

[nyg804]

This is why I think zimm should be accused one as you said this whole thing could of been avoided by zimm staying in the car and two is a example there was a guy sitting in his house one day he looked over to his neighbor s house he seen two gentlemen going through stuff who does not live there the robbers seen him looking inside so they tried to leave but the guy took his shotgun out and killed one of them even when they posed no threat to him and he was sentenced  long story short you go looking for trouble you'll find it and that day martin wasn't

[MightyGiants]

The "evidence" was not exactly sound.  Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible.  What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds.  We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed.  Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.

Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability.  The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt.  Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark.  Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.

The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free.  That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report

Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge.   First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports.  So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial

I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.   

[jimmyz]

The whole getting out of the car thing could be considered a gray area to some.

If he is in his car and drives off is it considered an act of retreat and thus something the Florida laws apparently do not require?

Does the mere act of getting out of his car represent a confrontational act?  Is he not allowed to do so under the circumstances?

I dont know how to interpret any of this.  The lawyers will likely find a way to spin it to their satisfaction I'm sure.  In many cases, society frowns upon the man who fails to act in the face of crime.  Martin wasn't committing a crime though.  He was merely walking near a house in the neighborhood. 

This thing is very ugly.  One thing is clear, an armed man should have much more common sense and should act with more caution.  IMO, the fact that he armed himself and then sought conflict is a bad thing for all gun owners.  A gun is not a license to stir trouble or provoke trouble.  If you are armed, and involve yourself in a situation that could spiral out of control, your first instinct will be to go for your weapon.  Bad and stupid.

[jimv]

I really don't know whether Zimm is guilty or not.  There was a huge rush to convict him by the media.  This spawned bad reactions on the part of some gangs around the country; the Norfolk VA one being a prime example.  The police have seemed to be slow to react to this whole affair.  Guilty or not, Zimm is surly doing some really dumb things.  Will there ever actually be a trial?

[AZGiantFan]

I have hardly ever agreed with Alan Dershowitz about anything.  But if even he says that there is no chance that they can convict Zimmerman I have to go with that.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dershowitz-no-jury-would-convict-zimmerman-of-murder-unless-afraid-new-black-panthers-might-kill-them/

[worf49]

I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.

1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.

2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.

3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur.  As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".

4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.

5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.


Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts.  Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid. 

[weeze]

ok folks, if you are gonna talk about this one go to the fla.gov site and look up the laws regarding having a permit to carry a concealed weapon in the state of florida.

[JimboWHO]

The "evidence" was not exactly sound.  Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible.  What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds.  We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed.  Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.

Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability.  The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt.  Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark.  Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.

The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free.  That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report

Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge.   First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports.  So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial

I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.

I think you're off the rails here. 

Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".

You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away?  You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head  - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene.  A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.

Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been.  Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today.  A photo designed to ilicit sympathy.  Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin".    Martin was 6'2".

If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail.   It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.


JJM

[JimboWHO]

I know this case seems complicated at first look but my view, based on my read of the Stand Your Ground Law should not prevent Zimmerman from being found guilty.

1) Zimmerman pursued this kid even though a Police Dispatcher told him to back off.

2) Zimmerman was also told by the same dispatcher the Police would be there in 2 minutes or so.

3) Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur.  As the lead investigating Detective said "this was completely avoidable".

4) Zimmerman is in no way connected with Law Enforcement.

5) Neighborhood Watch people were mandated not to carry weapons.


Also, I know many people want to make this a Racial situation, but I think it is a non issue based on the facts.  Legally Zimmeman did not have the legal right to pursue this kid.

How do you know that Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur?  Without being an eyewitness yourself, you cannot know that.   The lead investigator said it was "ultimately avoidable" not "completely".   The point he was making in his report was that if Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car there would have been no shooting.  That much is true but it was NOT a crime for Zimmerman to have gotten out of his car and if - IF - he was getting his head bashed in then he was justified in shooting Martin.

And to be accurate, a police dispatcher did not tell him to back off.  A 911 operator, when conversing with Zimmerman, said to him "we don't need you to do that" when Zimmerman said he was following Martin.
It's not just symantics - Martin would have been in trouble immediately if he had disobeyed a police order.  He did not.

JJM

[MightyGiants]

The "evidence" was not exactly sound.  Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible.  What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds.  We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed.  Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.

Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability.  The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt.  Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark.  Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.

The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free.  That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report

Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge.   First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports.  So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial

I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.

I think you're off the rails here. 

Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".

You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away?  You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head  - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene.  A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.

Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been.  Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today.  A photo designed to ilicit sympathy.  Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin".    Martin was 6'2".

If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail.   It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.


JJM

The facts that are not in dispute:

Zimmerman has two arrested for violence

Zimmerman's former coworker has stated he was harassed by Zimmerman with racist statements

Zimmerman made frequent complaints to the police about black teens in his housing complex

Zimmerman went out armed with a concealed weapon

Martin was unarmed and returning from the store and was not engaged in criminal activity

Zimmerman failed to follow police instructions to stay in the car

Zimmerman got into a confrontation with the teenage boy

Zimmerman shot the unarmed teen

The police failed to follow standard procedure and test George for drugs and alcohol

The video taken of ZImmerman getting out of the patrol car shows no blood or significant injury

Zimmerman was able to walk away scott free for  44 days

You and others on this thread have mischaracterized demands that Zimmerman be arrested and tried for his crimes as "the media trying to rush to conviction".

Now my opinion

I find this whole case and the reaction of many of Zimmerman's supporters (which are not people on this thread) as proof that racism is alive and well in the USA despite the election of a black President.   Did you hear about the sale of George Martin paper shoot targets?  They cam complete with hoodie, skittles and a bottle of ice tea.   Nothing more fun than practicing shooting black unarmed teenagers 

I will also say I found the comments that the only way Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of murder, for shooting an innocent unarmed black teenage, is that whites would be scared, highly offensive.


Oh and btw as someone who would qualify as an expert witness on EMT's and treatment I find the pictures taken by the police to be highly suspect.  It's a fact that ZImmerman was treated at the scene by EMT's and then refused transport to the hospital.  Now as someone that has been a practicing EMT for 26 years I know what the treatment at the scene would have entailed.  First off the EMT would have stopped the bleeding if it had not already done so.  Yet, when you look at the alleged picture there is no smearing of the blood or indication of any sort of treatment.   Secondly the EMT should have put a bandage on the wound and that wasn't done either.   With that knowledge combined with the conflicting images on video I have serious doubts as to the photo's authenticity. 

As I said Zimmerman's bail has been revoked for lying to the judge about his finances (to get his bail reduced) and he only turned in one of his two passports.    So as for what exactly went down we have the word of a proven liar with the advantage of the old adage dead men tell no tales.   


Oh and a final little puzzle, Martin's lifeless body was found on the grass.  If this supposed struggle took place on the grace, how did Zimmerman get those supposed lacerations?   



It's a sad state of affairs when a violent man goes out and hunts down an innocent teenager and there are actually people trying to claim anyone thinking that is murder must be an evil liberal, a dupe of the liberal media or a racist black person.   The reality is this was a tragic situation where a mother lost a child that she had sent to the store and a young life was needlessly cut short.   The nation should have united in demands for a trial and justice to be done.  Yet that hasn't been what has happened.  Instead it became a political and racial football.

[worf49]

JimboWHO  He caused the confrontation because he should not have been anywhere near the kid after reporting a "suspicious person".

Try reading the lead Detective's report and also consider that very same detective did not believe much of Zimmerman's story.

The Detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman but was backed off by The Florida DA for some reason as yet not detailed.

[MightyGiants]

JimboWHO  He caused the confrontation because he should not have been anywhere near the kid after reporting a "suspicious person".

Try reading the lead Detective's report and also consider that very same detective did not believe much of Zimmerman's story.

The Detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman but was backed off by The Florida DA for some reason as yet not detailed.

One has to wonder how Zimmerman's dad a former judge may have influenced events that transpired after the killing.

[worf49]

MIGHTYGIANTS  The thought has occurred to more than a few people that the father influenced The DA and it trickled down to the lead Detective.

I suspect at some point that question will HAVE to be answered.  Just a personal observation here Zimmerman is a creepy dude.

[JimboWHO]

The "evidence" was not exactly sound.  Reports from Zimmerman's hand picked doctor are hardly credible.  What will be credible are the EMT report and the police statements and pictures of any wounds.  We have seen video of Zimmerman reporting to the station house not looking anything like what George's doctor claimed.  Not that is all that surprising as there are doctors who will stretch the truth for the patient so they can get out of work, file phony lawsuits or in this case help keep a murderer out of jail.

Secondly the witness statements about who was on top were clearly coached as the statements did not match human visual ability.  The statements involved identifying a man on top by the color of his shirt.  Now it was a dark night and there is a funny thing about human's ability to perceive color, it doesn't exist when it gets dark.  Try it yourself go out when it's near the end of dusk or darker and notice how vision goes to a basic black and white and colors become difficult to determine.

The police failed to do their job and let the killer walk free.  That gave Zimmerman plenty of time to work with his daddy the judge and his lawyer a to concoct a story and fabricate evidence like his doctor's report

Finally it seems Zimmerman's penchant for lying has pissed off the judge.   First he lied to the judge when he told the judge he was out of work and broke (when he actually had raised over $200,000 from people who rewarded him with large sums of cash for killing an unarmed black teenager) and he only turned in one of his two passports.  So the judge has revoked the killer's bail and he is going to be spending time in prison until his trial

I agree with the messed up laws in Florida justice may not be served, but the reality is Zimmerman is a killer that killed an unarmed and innocent teen and he deserves to spend a long time in jail.

I think you're off the rails here. 

Not only are you convicting Zimmerman without hearing the evidence you are smearing his doctor, making claims of witnesses being coached and alleging the police failed to do their job and "let a 'killer' walk free".

You are questioning eyewitness accounts immediately after the shooting by two people who place Zimmerman under Martin with Martin flailing away?  You choose to disregard the photo obtained by ABC news that shows Zimmerman's bloody head  - a photo taken 3 minutes after the police arrived on the scene.  A bloody back of head, consistent with Zimmerman's claims of Martin bashing his head into the concrete.

Perhaps you were taken in by the media outcry and Sharpton's rent-a-riot, etc. but I have not been.  Taken in by the years-old cherubic photo of Martin supplied by the family that bore little resemblance to what he looks like today.  A photo designed to ilicit sympathy.  Taken in by the first reports of the "large man Zimmerman" shooting the "smaller boy Martin".    Martin was 6'2".

If the facts reveal Zimmerman recklessly and needlessly killed Martin then I'm with you - he should go to jail.   It seems to me though, that you are acting recklessly above.


JJM

The facts that are not in dispute:

Zimmerman has two arrested for violence

Zimmerman's former coworker has stated he was harassed by Zimmerman with racist statements

Zimmerman made frequent complaints to the police about black teens in his housing complex

Zimmerman went out armed with a concealed weapon

Martin was unarmed and returning from the store and was not engaged in criminal activity

Zimmerman failed to follow police instructions to stay in the car

Zimmerman got into a confrontation with the teenage boy

Zimmerman shot the unarmed teen

The police failed to follow standard procedure and test George for drugs and alcohol

The video taken of ZImmerman getting out of the patrol car shows no blood or significant injury

Zimmerman was able to walk away scott free for  44 days

You and others on this thread have mischaracterized demands that Zimmerman be arrested and tried for his crimes as "the media trying to rush to conviction".

Now my opinion

I find this whole case and the reaction of many of Zimmerman's supporters (which are not people on this thread) as proof that racism is alive and well in the USA despite the election of a black President.   Did you hear about the sale of George Martin paper shoot targets?  They cam complete with hoodie, skittles and a bottle of ice tea.   Nothing more fun than practicing shooting black unarmed teenagers 

I will also say I found the comments that the only way Zimmerman could possibly be found guilty of murder, for shooting an innocent unarmed black teenage, is that whites would be scared, highly offensive.


Oh and btw as someone who would qualify as an expert witness on EMT's and treatment I find the pictures taken by the police to be highly suspect.  It's a fact that ZImmerman was treated at the scene by EMT's and then refused transport to the hospital.  Now as someone that has been a practicing EMT for 26 years I know what the treatment at the scene would have entailed.  First off the EMT would have stopped the bleeding if it had not already done so.  Yet, when you look at the alleged picture there is no smearing of the blood or indication of any sort of treatment.   Secondly the EMT should have put a bandage on the wound and that wasn't done either.   With that knowledge combined with the conflicting images on video I have serious doubts as to the photo's authenticity. 

As I said Zimmerman's bail has been revoked for lying to the judge about his finances (to get his bail reduced) and he only turned in one of his two passports.    So as for what exactly went down we have the word of a proven liar with the advantage of the old adage dead men tell no tales.   


Oh and a final little puzzle, Martin's lifeless body was found on the grass.  If this supposed struggle took place on the grace, how did Zimmerman get those supposed lacerations?   



It's a sad state of affairs when a violent man goes out and hunts down an innocent teenager and there are actually people trying to claim anyone thinking that is murder must be an evil liberal, a dupe of the liberal media or a racist black person.   The reality is this was a tragic situation where a mother lost a child that she had sent to the store and a young life was needlessly cut short.   The nation should have united in demands for a trial and justice to be done.  Yet that hasn't been what has happened.  Instead it became a political and racial football.

If all you had done was point out facts in your original post I'd have no grounds differ with you but that was not the nature of your OP.   You are playing prosecutor.  You have that right.  It should be pointed out however,  that in doing so you are coming to conclusions that may or may not be proven true and accurate. 

In supplying your long list of facts immediately above you are also only listing facts that support your theory.  You are omitting any facts that might be "inconvenient" to the state (and Martin's family) and you are omitting any facts that weigh in Zimmerman's favor.  Or you are impeaching them with little or no basis.

I despise racists as much as you.  I'm also utterly fed up and repulsed by the race-baiting, so-called 'black leaders' who always see victimhood and racism where it doesn't necessarily exist.


JJM